The Instigator
1Devilsadvocate
Con (against)
Winning
21 Points
The Contender
baseballkid
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points

10.1 million people in prison, is much worse than genocide.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
1Devilsadvocate
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/10/2012 Category: Society
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,806 times Debate No: 28049
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (14)
Votes (4)

 

1Devilsadvocate

Con

FREEDO made the following statement:
"About 10.1 million people are in prison, somewhere in the world, right now.
That's much worse than any genocide."[1]

The resolution of this debate is based on that statement, in the context of that thread.

As per FREEDO's request the resolution will be modified to reflect his true intention in that thread to:
About 10.1 million people are in prison, somewhere in the world, right now.
That's much worse than any genocide of equal #.

No lawyering
No semantics
No new arguments in R4

[1] http://www.debate.org...
baseballkid

Pro

Alright. This seemes to be a fun debate.
Debate Round No. 1
1Devilsadvocate

Con

genocide - noun
# The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.
# Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, race racial or religious group.(1)

A legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."(2)

For illustration purposes I will be using The Holocaust, since it is the only Genocide that I know of that is estimated at around 10 million, & that was the topic of the thread.

The Holocaust:

Definition:
The Holocaust -" A programe of systematic state-sponsored murder by Nazi Germany, led by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party, throughout German-occupied territory.[3][4] Of the nine million Jews who had resided in Europe before the Holocaust, approximately two-thirds were killed.[5] Over one million Jewish children were killed in the Holocaust, as were approximately two million Jewish women and three million Jewish men.[6][7]
Some scholars argue that the mass murder of the Romani and people with disabilities should be included in the definition,[8][9] and some use the common noun "holocaust" to describe other Nazi mass murders, for example Soviet prisoners of war, Polish and Soviet civilians, and homosexuals.[10][11] Recent estimates based on figures obtained since the fall of the Soviet Union indicates some ten to 11 million civilians and prisoners of war were intentionally murdered by the Nazi regime.[12][13]". (3)

Some Distinctive features:

1)Institutional collaboration.

2) Ideology and scale:
"German historian Eberhard J"ckel wrote in 1986 that one distinctive feature of the Holocaust was that
never before had a state with the authority of its responsible leader decided and announced that a specific human group, including its aged, its women and its children and infants, would be killed as quickly as possible, and then carried through this resolution using every possible means of state power.[23]

Anyone with three or four Jewish grandparents was to be exterminated without exception. In other genocides, people were able to escape death by converting to another religion or in some other way assimilating. This option was not available to the Jews of occupied Europe,[26] unless their grandparents had converted before 18 January 1871. All persons of recent Jewish ancestry were to be exterminated in lands controlled by Germany.[27]" (3)

3)Extermination camps:
"The use of camps equipped with gas chambers for the purpose of systematic mass extermination of peoples was a unique feature of the Holocaust and unprecedented in history. Never before had there existed places with the express purpose of killing people en masse. These were established at Auschwitz, Belzec, Chełmno, Jasenovac, Majdanek, Maly Trostenets, Sobibor, and Treblinka."(3)

4)Medical Experiments:
"The most notorious of these physicians was Dr. Josef Mengele, who worked in Auschwitz. His experiments included placing subjects in pressure chambers, testing drugs on them, freezing them, attempting to change eye color by injecting chemicals into children's eyes, and various amputations and other surgeries.[29] The full extent of his work will never be known because the truckload of records he sent to Dr. Otmar von Verschuer at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute was destroyed by von Verschuer.[30] Subjects who survived Mengele's experiments were almost always killed and dissected shortly afterwards." (3)

Concentration and labor camps:
"After 1939, the camps increasingly became places where Jews and POW"s were either killed or made to work as slave laborers, undernourished and tortured.[97] It is estimated that the Germans established 15,000 camps and sub camps

The transportation of prisoners was often carried out under horrifying conditions using rail freight cars, in which many died before reaching their destination.

Extermination through labor was a policy of systematic extermination " camp inmates would literally be worked to death, or worked to physical exhaustion, when they would be gassed or shot.

The labor was in 12 to 14 hour shifts. Before and after, there were roll calls that could sometimes last for hours, with prisoners regularly dying of exposure.[101]" (3)

More in R2.

POST HOLOCOST EFFECTS:

Psychological:
I believe that there are 2 parts to this; a) Individual. b) National
Individual - Since the end of the Holocaust to the present day the Holocaust has been dealt with in the field of psychology.
The effects of the holocaust is not limited to survivors themselves, but to their children as well.
There are numerous papers & books written on the subject.(4)
Without going into details & studies I'll just give 2 quotes:
"The Holocaust has had a deep effect on the children of survivors, with parents who were irreparably damaged, both physically and psychologically. They grew up in the shadow of psychic conflicts stemming from bereavement, mourning, guilt feelings and anxiety, which often resulted in over protection and over expectation..."(5)

"After liberation, most of the Jewish camp inmates were too weak to move or be aware of what was happening. Prisoners were not restored to perfect health by liberation. Awakening from nightmares was sometimes even more painful than captivity. In the beginning of physical improvement , the ability to feel and think returned and many realized the completeness of their isolation. To them, the reality of what had happened was agonizing. They lived with their overwhelming personal losses whose impact is beyond intellectual or emotional comprehension. They also clung to the
hope of finding some family member still alive in the new DISPLACED PERSONS' camps that were now set up. Many of the people admitted to those camps lost all sense of initiative."(6)

It should be noted that the effects are now being found in the 3rd generation as well.(7)

National:
There is unfortunately not as much written on the psychological effects of the holocaust on the Jewish nation as a whole.
It is inconsiderable to me that the holocaust has not impacted the Jewish nation.
Perhaps this can be best seen in the Jewish tendency to be somewhat paranoid, suspicious, & distrustful at times.
How can it be otherwise, when they experienced the most civilized of cultures turn against them for no reason, & to our ever lasting shame no one came to their aid(8).
I did find a paper written on the topic(9).

One final loss is the loss to the advancement of society & humanity. I will elaborate on this in the next round as I am out of space.

(1) http://dictionaryinstant.heroku.com...
(2) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(3) http://en.wikipedia.org...
(4) http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org...
http://psycnet.apa.org...
http://www.getcited.org...
(5) http://psycnet.apa.org...
(6)https://www.customessaymeister.com...
(7) http://amcha.org...
http://www.drevafogelman.com...
http://www.haaretz.com...
(8)While 6 Million Died: A chronicle of American Apathy
(9)http://www.academia.edu...
baseballkid

Pro

I am sorry. I tried for a couple days to write a case but I am just not knowledgeable on the subject and all i could have done was make myself look stupid.
Debate Round No. 2
1Devilsadvocate

Con

Oh well.
Thanks for trying, & for being honest.
Extend all arguments.
baseballkid

Pro

If you ever do this again try to not emphasise the Holocaust so much. all cases I had written just attacked that.
Debate Round No. 3
1Devilsadvocate

Con

So what should I have emphasized instead?

"all cases I had written just attacked that"
What do you mean attack that?
If you mean Holocaust denial, I could surly deal with that.
baseballkid

Pro

emphasise the other parts of your case. That is what meant.
Debate Round No. 4
14 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
I suppose the answer is because it's easy.

I agree with you, it's not fair, but that's the way it is.
Posted by baseballkid 4 years ago
baseballkid
why the hell does everybody vote on this and nobody debated on my nuclear energy debate and my MW3 debate and the debates where my opponent quits.
Posted by baseballkid 4 years ago
baseballkid
I think i easily deserve this win.
Posted by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
Sorry, the line, "It is inconsiderable to me that the holocaust has not impacted..."

Should read, "It is inconceivable to me that the holocaust has not impacted..."

& thanx 4 not backing out, I think you deserve the conduct point for that.
Posted by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
K. I'll presume you want to take it anyway.
Posted by 1Devilsadvocate 4 years ago
1Devilsadvocate
If you want to back out, it's okay with me.
Posted by baseballkid 4 years ago
baseballkid
I will still go.
Posted by FREEDO 4 years ago
FREEDO
I don't think I was ready to accept anyway. I'm trying to write an article for Cracked.com, job searching, and preparing to move and go to school.
Posted by FREEDO 4 years ago
FREEDO
Well, shit.
Posted by baseballkid 4 years ago
baseballkid
I thought i would have gotten con. I should have read better.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Chicken 4 years ago
Chicken
1DevilsadvocatebaseballkidTied
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Total points awarded:31 
Reasons for voting decision: Concession
Vote Placed by iamnotwhoiam 4 years ago
iamnotwhoiam
1DevilsadvocatebaseballkidTied
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Total points awarded:70 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit.
Vote Placed by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
1DevilsadvocatebaseballkidTied
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Total points awarded:51 
Reasons for voting decision: it was an honorable forfeit, so arguments and sources to the con but conduct to the pro.
Vote Placed by Chuz-Life 4 years ago
Chuz-Life
1DevilsadvocatebaseballkidTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Basically an FF.