The Instigator
imabench
Pro (for)
Winning
1 Points
The Contender
redblue_22
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

2 - CNN should let Biden participate in their Democratic Presidential debate even if he doesnt run

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
imabench
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/30/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 516 times Debate No: 80355
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

imabench

Pro

Remaking this debate because the last one got accepted by some retard.

3 rounds, 24 hours between rounds, 4000 characters. No trolling or semantics allowed.

Joe Biden was recently allowed to participate in the first Democratic CNN debate even if he waits until the day of the debate to declare that he will run for president.

http://news.yahoo.com...

Apparently, Biden has routinely placed second or third place in polling in the Democratic primaries, even polling higher than other people who have already announced that they are running, such as Lincoln Chafee, Jim Webb, and Martin O'Malley.... Because CNN only requires people to be polling at at least 1% in numerous polls to qualify for the debate, Biden is therefore allowed to be in the debate on the condition that he announces that he will run for president.

I on the other hand believe that CNN should change the rules and allow Biden to be in the debate REGARDLESS of whether or not he decides to run for president, meaning that I will argue that Biden should be allowed to be in the debate even if he has not yet decided to run for president or not by the time the debate even starts

Arguments:


1) CNN would HUGELY benefit from letting Biden in the debate

Whether or not Biden will run has been speculated for several months now, and millions of people will already be tuning in to watch the first Democratic debate of the year on CNN on October 13th. If Biden does decide to participate in the debate for whatever reason, interest in the debate and what Biden would say or do in it would cause HUGE public interest, making the debate a ratings goldmine for CNN.

http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com...



2) It would be a great opportunity for Biden to decide whether to ultimately run or not

Biden would by default be a major candidate in the primary race if he decided to run, but the reason he has not declared he will run so far is because he doesn't know if his heart is in it. He cites the recent tragedy of his sons death as the reason for why he hasnt announced that he will run, explaining that he is unsure if he wants to run himself

http://www.theguardian.com...

Biden being allowed to be in the debate though would give Biden the perfect opportunity to make up his mind once and for all, and really find out if he wants to run for President or not. If he does great in the debate, that could be all the convincing he needs. If he does terrible and regrets being in the debate, then he'll know for certain that he wont run.



3) The American people deserve to see Joe Biden in the debate

According to RealClearPolitics, Joe Biden is averaging almost 20% of the entire vote in the Democratic Primary, far and away placing him in the top tier of candidates in the Democratic race. 20% is also better than every single candidate except for Donald Trump in the GOP race, meaning that Biden has a HUGE voter base.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com...
http://www.realclearpolitics.com...

To require Biden to decide to run in order to let him be in the debate could potentially disenfranchise 20% of Democratic voters, since Biden is unsure of whether or not he wants to run, and he wont declare that he will run just to be in the debate... But by allowing Biden to be in the debate WITHOUT requiring that he announce that he is running for president would allow for the 20% of the voter base who support him to not be disenfranchised.

It is for these reasons that I believe that CNN should allow Joe Biden to participate in their Democratic Presidential debate, even if Joe Biden has still not made up his mind about running for president or not.
redblue_22

Con

As stated in my opponent's opening statement, CNN announced that Biden will be allowed to participate in their upcoming Democratic debate if he announces to run for president before the debate. If Joe Biden wants to participate in a debate for presidential candidates shouldn't he have to be a candidate for the nomination to participate?

The following is a rebuttal of my opponent's arguments made in her opening statement:

1. CNN would hugely benefit from letting Biden in the debate
As my opponent stated "millions of people will already be tuning in to watch the first Democratic debate." CNN does not need Biden to boost ratings. The public is already interested in the debate. People want to see Bernie vs Clinton. It's the first chance to see the Democrats debating each other and with so few debates people will feel that this is one of the only chances they get to meet legitimate candidates.

2. It would be a great opportunity for Biden to decide whether to ultimately run or not
It is not CNN's duty to give Biden an opportunity to test the water and see how people react to his campaign. It is their duty to run a debate that gives the public an opportunity to meet the candidates running for the Democratic nomination. By allowing Biden to participate you are taking time away from people who are actually running. Also as my opponent stated the only reason Biden is not running is because he doesn't know if "his heart is in it." How would participating in the debate help him know if his heart is in for the race? A debate is a two-three hour event. A campaign is week after week, day after day talking to people, making speeches, and constantly traveling. A two hour event will not make him "know for certain" if he wants to run for president.

3. The American people deserve to see Joe Biden in the debate
This should say "The American people deserve to see candidates running for the Democratic nominee for President." If Joe Biden announces that he is running then by all means he deserves to be on stage, but if he does not then he should not be allowed to participate in a debate for presidential candidates. You make an apples to oranges comparison of Republican and Democratic primary numbers. Obviously a campaign with 5 candidates (6 plus Biden) would produce higher numbers for candidates than a campaign with 15 current nominees. CNN will not be "disenfranchising" anyone by requiring Biden to be a declared candidate. This will give that portion of the population to find a second choice if Biden decides against running for the Democratic nominee.

Some points in favor for the current and correct policy of requiring candidates to declare they are running:

1. This is a debate for people currently running for president
Is it really that outlandish to require people to actually be running for president to participate in a debate for president of the United States? A debate is not a way for possible candidates to try out a campaign, it is a way for actual candidates to prove why their policies are the correct way. By allowing Biden to participate you are giving him an unfair advantage of not going through the trouble of setting a campaign up and allowing him to test the water on a national stage.

2. Allowing Biden to participate is unfair to candidates currently not polling well
The DNC is not allowing many debates for candidates to participate in this year. This limits the amount of time candidates will have on a national stage. Chaffee, O'Malley and Webb will already be battling for debate time over Clinton and Sanders, but when you add in a candidate that may or may not actually run you are giving them even less time to get their names and ideas out there to some people for the first time. Fiorina showed that debates have a big impact even when polling low initially.

http://www.latinpost.com...
Debate Round No. 1
imabench

Pro

1) CNN would get a huge bump in viewership by letting Biden join

"CNN does not need Biden to boost ratings. The public is already interested in the debate"

The argument is that CNN has an incentive to let Biden join the debate because it would get more people to watch the debate, which is in the best interests of CNN. Therefore CNN should let Biden join the debate since they would benefit from it by getting more people to tune in, which is what CNN wants.



2. It would allow Biden to decide whether to ultimately run or not

"It is not CNN's duty to give Biden an opportunity to test the water and see how people react to his campaign."

It also isn't CNN's duty to have debates in the first place, yet they are still having them. This argument was to point out that Biden has an incentive to join the debate if CNN allowed him to join regardless if he has made up his mind about running or not, meaning that not only does CNN gain from this, but so does Biden himself. Being on the stage and in the debate would be an ideal way for him to conclude whether or not he wants to run ocne and for all.



"How would participating in the debate help him know if his heart is in for the race?"

Because if the debate goes well for him that could convince him to go ahead and run, and if it doesn't then it could convince him that its a bad idea to run and that he shouldn't.



3) The American people deserve to see Joe Biden in the debate

"if he does not then he should not be allowed to participate in a debate for presidential candidates"

Do you not even know what is being debated right now? The debate is that CNN should amend the rules and allow Biden to be in the debate even if he hasn't decided to run or not by the time the debate takes place. You're just posting your opinion right now rather then making an argument.



"CNN will not be "disenfranchising" anyone by requiring Biden to be a declared candidate"

Yes they would because then nearly 20% of Democratic voters who currently support Biden over everyone else would not see their candidate they prefer to be on stage, all because of CNN's arbitrary rules regarding admittance into the debate.



"This will give that portion of the population to find a second choice"

It doesn't matter if you are showing them potential second choices if you're flat out denying those people the candidate that is their first choice.



4) This is a debate for people currently running for president

Technically it isnt. Biden is not CURRENTLY running for president, yet CNN has still left the door open for Biden to be in the debate if he declares he is running for president, even if its on the day of the debate. I am arguing that CNN should go ahead and go one step further by letting Biden into the debate no matter what, since they already are letting Biden wait until the last possible second to have a chance to be in the debate in the first place.

"By allowing Biden to participate you are giving him an unfair advantage of not going through the trouble of setting a campaign up and allowing him to test the water on a national stage."

He doesn't have to test out the waters because the waters are already there and support him! 20% remember? Biden faces a situation that traditional candidates don't normally face since he has supporters but doesn't know if he wants to run. To bar him from being in the debate just because you think it would be unfair to other candidates who have gone the traditional way of announcing their candidacies is completely arbitrary and illogical.



5. Allowing Biden to participate is unfair to candidates currently not polling well

"This limits the amount of time candidates will have on a national stage"

There would be a total of 6 candidates... The debate will likely last 3 hours (just like the CNN GOP debate) So 3 hours = 180 minutes / 6 candidates = 30 minutes max for each candidate - time from commercials and moderators asking questions = 20 min each. That would be plenty of time for each candidate to say what they want.
redblue_22

Con

1. CNN would get a huge bump in viewer ship by letting Biden join
Let's think about just exactly what this says, "huge bump." To me huge bump would mean a very measurable amount. It's very improbable that millions of Americans will decide to not watch strictly based on if Biden is in the debate or not. Those supporting him would want to see potential competition. Without a measurable difference it will not effect CNN, especially since interest in the debate is already high.

2.It would allow Biden to decide whether to ultimately run or not
You are correct CNN does not have to host debates, but when they choose to host a debate they then have a duty to run a fair debate between filed candidates. "This argument was to point out that Biden has an incentive to join the debate if CNN allowed him..." So exactly what does this have to do with CNN letting him on the state? Obviously Biden has an incentive to be on a national stage, but why does this effect CNN's decision to let him in? CNN does not care if Biden runs or not. Therefore, they do not care if this negatively effects him. Since he is not a filed candidate they have no duty to include him no matter how much support he has. "If the debate goes well for him that could convince him to go ahead and run." As stated in Round 1 the reason Biden is not running is "because he doesn't know if his heart is in it." A 3 hour debate will not answer this question. I'm sure Biden is confident he would do well in a debate, but just doing well in something that lasts 3 hours max will not answer the question of if he wants to sign up to be in a year long presidential campaign.

3. The American people deserve to see Joe Biden in the debate
Is it really that outlandish to state that you should have to be a filed candidate for President to participate in a presidential debate? "...CNN's arbitrary rules regarding admittance into the debate." Is it really arbitrary to require someone to actually be a filed candidate to participate in a debate that is for presidential candidates? If Biden is running they have given him until the day of the debate to announce that, if he needs more time then he will have to wait. "It doesn't matter if you are showing them potential second choices if you're flat out denying those people the candidate that is their first choice". CNN does not have to show them their first choice if the candidate is not a current candidate on the day of the debate. If these people want Biden to be in the debate they need to urge Biden to announce before October 13th.

4. This debate is for people currently running for president as of October 13th
This debate is for Democratic candidates running for their party's nomination as of October 13th. CNN is doing more than they have to by allowing Biden to decide so late and he should be thankful for that alone. "He doesn't have to test out the waters..." Then why does it matter if he is in the debate or not? Isn't one of your arguments that this will "allow Biden to decide whether to ultimately run or not"? That sounds like testing the water to me. "To bar him from being in the debate just because you think it would be unfair to other candidates who have gone the traditional way of announcing their candidacies is completely arbitrary and illogical." As I said earlier is it really arbitrary that CNN expects for participants to be filed candidates to participate in their debate? Is it illogical to only allow current candidates on the day of the debate to participate?

5.Allowing Biden to participate is unfair to candidates currently not polling well
As we saw in the Republican debate top tier candidates get more air time than lower candidates on average. The top 3 candidates average 11.76% of the time, while the lowest 3 average 7.3% of the time. Adding Biden would restrict those not polling well as focus would shift even more towards Clinton, Sanders, and Biden.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com...




Debate Round No. 2
imabench

Pro

1. CNN would get a huge bump in viewer ship by letting Biden in

"Without a measurable difference it will not effect CNN"

You have provided no source indicating that that is true, yet the 19% of the Dem vote who supports Biden suggests that a very big number of people who might not tune into the debate would end up tuning in if Biden was allowed in. There could very well be some GOP supporters who would tune in to watch Biden since they already have a strong distaste for Clinton and Sanders as well.


2) It would allow Biden to decide whether to ultimately run or not

"CNN does not care if Biden runs or not."

Theyre the MEDIA, of COURSE they care if Biden runs or not. The fact that they are already allowing Biden to wait until the day of the debate to declare to let them in to their debate indicates that CNN does very much care if Biden decides to run or not.


"As stated in Round 1 the reason Biden is not running is "because he doesn't know if his heart is in it." A 3 hour debate will not answer this question"

Sure it could. If he really debates with the other candidates about national issues and really believes that the audience reacts well to what he is saying, that could very well convince him to enter the race.



"just doing well in something that lasts 3 hours max will not answer the question of if he wants to sign up to be in a year long presidential campaign."

Source? Oh wait, you're just stating your opinion as fact again without substantiating the opinion with any actual evidence.



3. The American people deserve to see Joe Biden in the debate

"Is it really that outlandish to state that you should have to be a filed candidate for President to participate in a presidential debate?"

When the person in question has been polling in the top 3 in the entire field and holds a voter base of 20%, then yeah, forcing that person to make a decision to run or not just to let them into the debate is outlandish and arbitrary.



"If Biden is running they have given him until the day of the debate to announce that"

Stating what I said in round 1 isnt making an argument Con, youre just going in circles and wasting my time.



"CNN does not have to show them their first choice if the candidate is not a current candidate on the day of the debate"

Oh look, another OPINION rather than an actual argument...



"If these people want Biden to be in the debate they need to urge Biden to announce before October 13th."

And they have been: https://draftbiden2016.com... want to see Biden in the debate, CNN should let him be in the debate.



"CNN is doing more than they have to by allowing Biden to decide so late and he should be thankful for that alone"

Thats opinion-rather-than-an-actual-argument number 3 for the voters keeping track.....



"As I said earlier is it really arbitrary that CNN expects for participants to be filed candidates to participate?"

And as I answered earlier, yes it is. And by not providing arguments otherwise youve basically conceded this point



4) Allowing Biden to participate is unfair to candidates currently not polling well

"As we saw in the Republican debate, top tier candidates get more air time than lower candidates on average"

Actually they dont. Republicans in the top tier debates average about 10 minutes of speaking time. Republicans in the lower tier debate on the other hand averaged 14:

http://www.npr.org...

There were 6 candidates in the 1st low tier debate where Fiorina broke out from the pack. Allowing Biden into the Dem debate would still only have there be 6 candidates on the stage, meaning all candidates no matter how bad they are polling will have plenty of time to try to get a word in.



Con has failed to provide sources or actual arguments for over half of his claims, CNN clearly has an incentive to let Biden in regardless if he declares or not, and the other Dem candidates will still have plenty of time to talk if Biden is allowed into the debate.

Vote Pro
redblue_22

Con

redblue_22 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
just know that you dont qualify ;)
Posted by russian_metaphor_man 1 year ago
russian_metaphor_man
that's not stipulated in the rules
Posted by imabench 1 year ago
imabench
Sorry, no sh**heads allowed to accept :)
Posted by russian_metaphor_man 1 year ago
russian_metaphor_man
I accept
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
imabenchredblue_22Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
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Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Total points awarded:10 
Reasons for voting decision: Con ff a round, so conduct to Pro.