The Instigator
MrWright
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Lightningstar
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

A Christian (One who has been saved from sin) Can Lose Their Salvation and Become Unsaved

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/27/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 587 times Debate No: 47915
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (4)
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MrWright

Pro


Affirmed: The Bible teaches that it is possible to have once believed and obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ and been saved from sin, then later having changed and turned from the faith, forsaking God, forfeiting salvation and becoming unsaved.


1.) It is possible for a Christian to sin (transgress God law – 1 Jn. 3:4)



  1. “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” – Rom. 6:1-2

  2. “My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” – 1 Jn. 2:1


2.) The penalty for sin is death – Rom. 6:23 (separation from God – Isa. 59:1-2/Heb. 3:12)



  1. “The soul that sinneth” – Eze. 18:20

  2. “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.” – Heb. 10:26-27

  3. “The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire” – Matt. 13:41-42


Therefore, since a Christian CAN sin and transgress God Word, for which the penalty is separation from Almighty God and eventually eternal punishment; then it is certainly possible for a Christian (i.e. one who has been saved and forgiven of sin) to so sin as to fall from the grace of God and lose their salvation.


Lightningstar

Con

I accept your challenge and will pry we both represent Godly character as we debate this issue.

First is cite John 14:16 which says: And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever.
How can the Counselor be with the saved forever if a Christian can loose his salvation and the counselor? I will approach this like a geometry proof and say: definition of forever.

Now I look to1 Peter 1:3-5 - Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God"s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

If I loose my salvation my inheritance therefore perishes, and spoils. Also it says that we are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation. Why would God take away the salvation and forgiveness but still shield us?

Lastly God even kindly states in Romans 11:29 - ...for God"s gifts and his call are irrevocable. God wouldn't take away a Christian's salvation because if he did he would be contradicting Himself when He says God is not a man that He should lie.... therefore he doesn't contradict Himself.
I eagerly aware your reply.
Debate Round No. 1
MrWright

Pro


First of all, I express my sincerely thanks and utmost respect to my opponent for accepting my challenge to debate this crucial topic. As this issue is serious and of grave importance, I will likewise esteem my opponent in that same light throughout this debate.


In response to my opponent’s argument, I say that his approach to my proposition is not only directed in the wrong direction, but it also denies arguments which are not in question.


He says that since the “Counsellor” or the Holy Spirit is given to be with us “forever”, that it is impossible to lose or forfeit one’s salvation.


The passage he used in this premise is Jn. 14:16; a passage referring NOT to Christians in general or the church, but to the apostles of Jesus Christ, to whom the Lord sent the Holy Spirit to empower them to perform miracles and spiritual gifts in confirmation of their preaching; “And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.” – Mk. 16:20 and “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard Him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?” – Heb. 2:3-4.


Moreover, this function of the Holy Spirit in no way precludes the free will of the Christian. The write of the Book of Hebrews confirms this very idea, affirming that those who had once “tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost... and the powers of the world to come” could in fact fall away – Heb. 6:4-6. In which case, as well as any, the “fallen” had exercised volition, will and choice in turning from the God who had once saved him/her.


Secondly, my opponent cited 1 Pet. 1:3-5 as proof-text in support of his argument. Again, a text which indicates the surety and steadfastness of God and His promised reward, but not at all addresses the volition and free will of the Christian. Yes, the reward is laid up for the Christian who remains faithful until the end – 2 Tim. 4:7-8/Jms. 1:12. Peter points out in this passage that the reward that is promised to every Christian is not perishable or corruptible and does not wax old and wear out. This is confirmation of the Lord’s Words; “Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal” – Matt. 6:19-20. Neither I nor Peter suggested that anyone’s reward is “taken away” from them. However, in so sinning as to turn from Almighty God, one simply forfeits and renounces their reward.


So, my opponent mentioned Rom. 11:29, stating that neither God’s gifts nor His calling are revocable.


The term employed in that text is actually “αN7;μεταμεL9;λητος -ametameleM2;tos”, translated and defined as “regret”rather than “revoke”. Nevertheless, the text doesn’t say what my opponent pretends it says. Just a few verses prior, in the very same context, the inspired apostles warns the Christians he’s addressing, not to be high-minded or puffed up with pride, because “if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee” – Rom. 11:21, and goes on to say “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off” – vs. 22.


Finally, one passage for your careful consideration: “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.” – 2 Pet. 2:20-22


The apostle Peter describes Christians who had “escaped the pollutions of the world”, “known the way of righteousness” and become pure inwardly and clean outwardly; but, had later “become entangled again” with worldly pollutions, “forsaken the holy commandment” and defiled themselves again in returning to the sin from which they were once saved – 2 Pet. 2:20-22.


The possibility of a Christian falling from God’s grace and losing their salvation is ABUNDANTLY clear, especially in this passage.


Thank you!
Lightningstar

Con

I apologize for that Counsellor example I'm Pentecostal and i believe they the two are entertained.

I stand by my previous arguments normally I'd give my rebuttal, but I think you may be right when you said I was going in the wrong direction.

So here goes can a Christian loose his salvation? First let's define Christian
A Christian is a person who has, by faith, received and fully trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior. With that definition in mind let's look at what the Bible says happens when one becomes a Christian: he or she is a new creation(2 Corinthians 5:17),he or she is redeemed (1 Peter 1:18-19),A Christian is justified(Romans 5:1). A Christian is promised eternal life(John 3:16), A Christian is guaranteed glorification(Romans 8:30)

Many more illustrations of what occurs at salvation could be shared. Even these few make it abundantly clear that a Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Jesus Christ as Savior would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation cannot be reversed. A Christian cannot be un-newly created. Redemption cannot be undone. Eternal life cannot be lost and still be considered eternal. If a Christian can lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and change His mind"two things that Scripture tells us God never does.

I hope that's better.
Debate Round No. 2
MrWright

Pro

Actually “Lightning”, you’re going backwards now. “Christian” is defined in my initial proposition; “believed and obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ and been saved from sin”.
Scripturally, a Christian is by definition one who has…
1.) Believed the TRUTH of the Gospel of Christ they heard Eph. 1:13
2.) Turned from their past sins 1 Cor. 6:11
3.)
Acknowledged and obeyed the TRUTH which they’ve heard and believed Rom. 6:17-18, by being baptized for the forgiveness of sin Acts 2:37-38, 41.
“And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.” Acts 18:8

I truly do not know WHERE you’re getting your “trusted in Jesus Christ as the only Savior” business. Where is that taught in the Bible?
Again, my opponent is arguing the surety and steadfastness of the promises of God; an argument I am neither calling into question, nor denying. However, the question on the floor, in this discussion is the faithfulness and steadfastness of the Christian. No, God never revokes His promises. They are indeed firm and fixed. However, Christians can become unfaithful, forsake God, abandon the church, neglect his/her eternal reward and become unsaved? If the answer to this question is “No”, then why is the New Testament utterly replete with warning against transgressing, becoming unfaithful and “falling away” from God.

If I need only ONE verse of scripture to complete annihilate my opponent’s position, that verse would be “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition” 2 Thess. 2:3.

The inspired apostles affirmed that God’s wrath will be unleashed upon His enemies (the persecutors of Christians) AFTER a mass “falling away” of unfaithful Christians.

The prophet Jude had this to say to warn first century Christians from falling from God’s grace and losing their salvation and Heavenly reward (PLEASE READ THIS CAREFULLY): “I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.” Jude 5
Yes, God had once “saved” them, having promised them “rest” in the land of Canaan, hence “the land of promise”. But, those same “saved” souls were later destroyed, having become unfaithful and disobedient. Paul explicitly outlined this change of event, in detail: “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, the people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ as some of them also tempted and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.” 1 Cor. 10:1-12

Now, answer this “Lightning”. Why did the inspired apostles call these “our EXAMAPLES and WARNING” if it were NOT POSSIBLE for Christians to likewise become, unfaithful and unbelieving and ultimately “fall away” and fall short of our reward?

Finally, the inspired writer of Hebrews made it totally CLEAR that the once “saved” Christian can develop “an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God” Heb. 3:12.

Now, can you “DE-part” (be “removed”) or “separate” from anything of which you were never part OF or connected TO? IMPOSSIBLE! Nevertheless, the writer warns that the Christian's unfaithfulness leads to and results in “removal” and “separation” FROM the living God who at one time saved him/her.

Lightningstar

Con

Lightningstar forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
MrWright

Pro

Consider the Lord’s illustration in the parable below.

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.” Lk. 8:11-15

Jesus described four groups of souls who ALL heard the gospel of Christ, of which only one of the four groups ends up saved eternally. Notice that the “seed is the Word (i.e. gospel) of God.” vs. 11
1.) The “wayside” group heard, but never believed the gospel vs. 12.
2.)
The “stony ground” group both hear and believe the gospel. But, later on, due to inevitable adversity, grief, suffering and/tribulation became unfaithful, and ultimately deserted the faith vs. 13. This is the enemy’s primary purpose for instigating such hardships upon children of God. It was Satan’s ploy against Job, to attack him with such pain, grief and adversity that he would foolishly “curse God and die”, turning his back on his Maker, Redeemer and Judge Job 1:9-11 Notice how the Lord, explicitly stated that they ultimately “fell away” vs. 13b.
3.) The “thorny ground” group also heard and believed the gospel of Christ. But, became worldly in their ambitions, “storing up treasures upon the earth” rather than in Heaven. They desire physical, earthly pleasures more than God, “supposing that gain is godliness” 1 Tim. 6:5. Notice that these were “IN Christ” and “IN the faith”, but were unfaithful, in that they bore “no good fruit” vs. 14b. Compare to Matt. 25:24-31.
4.) Contrast the “good ground” group with former three groups. These souls hear the gospel, believe it, obey it and “keep it, bearing fruit with patience” vs. 15b.

Really, many have and continually hear and believe the gospel of Christ, rendering obedience in baptism for the forgiveness of sins. But, often when events happen and circumstance arise in life where Christians either make decisions contrary to God’s Word, or end up gradually drifting away from God and the faith (adultery, fornication, homosexuality, drug abuse, alcoholism, etc.), from which many never repent and/or recover. Thus, they fall away from God’s grace.

It happens all the time and we read about it in scripture over and over. Therefore, the IMpossibility of a child of God falling away, is among the devil’s most cunning and effective devices which trap so many unsuspecting souls.

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.” Matt. 7:21-22

Lightningstar

Con

I'm sorry I didn't respond to the last round it was my weekend with my dad.
I defined Christian for a reason your definition was vague at best.
Now for my closing statement:
My opponent says my argument is wrong because I say salvation is a promise when reality it was a promise God promised he would send salvation. It was a promises and we both agree God doesn't go back on his promises. That is all there is to say about that.
Now I thank my opponent for a spirited debate and wish him luck.
Debate Round No. 4
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by MrWright 2 years ago
MrWright
The debate is over the proposition that "IT IS POSSIBLE" to fall from God's grace and "lose salvation". The question is not "WHY" or "who's a "true Christian" or who isn't. These are answered in my affirmative argument; "it is possible to have once believed and obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ and BEEN SAVED FROM SIN..."
One who has never "believed in their heart" - Rom. 10:9, "repented and turned from their sins" - Acts 3:19 and "obeyed from the heart" - Rom. 6:17, has NEVER been saved from sin even if they have professed it and been baptized.
Posted by Vitezamotors 2 years ago
Vitezamotors
Luke warm*
Posted by Vitezamotors 2 years ago
Vitezamotors
I want to accept but are we talking about a true Christian or simply a like warm Christian? The degree to ones devotion has a huge impact on whether or not they turn from God.

Technically, a true Christian would not turn from the path of God.

What do you think?
Posted by Taylur 2 years ago
Taylur
Do you mean after death? Isn't that called a fallen angel? Non-debatable topic.

Or before death? Of course someone can sin after being forgiven. Non-debatable topic.

I'm atheist anyway, so I won't accept.
No votes have been placed for this debate.