The Instigator
the1000things
Pro (for)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
SkepticsAskHere
Con (against)
Losing
4 Points

A Christian Ought to Vote Against Prop 8

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
the1000things
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/5/2011 Category: Religion
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 3,334 times Debate No: 16893
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (31)
Votes (4)

 

the1000things

Pro

Thanks to SkepticsAskHere for accepting this debate.
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INTRODUCTION
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I am a relatively conservative Christian, as is my opponent. I, however, believe in the right to gay marriage - not only from a political and constitutional standpoint but from a Biblical one. I believe that supporting gay marriage is justifiable from a Scripture-based worldview, and I will attempt to defend that position here, should my opponent accept. I hope that this will be a fruitful and an enjoyable debate for both of us.

I use Prop 8 as an example because it is the most widely recognized ballot measure to deal with same-sex marriage. The 2008 ballot measure passed by a rather narrow margin in the state of California, effectively making gay marriages illegal by defining marriage solely between a man and a woman in the state Constitution. A better title would probably have been "Christians ought to support gay rights" but there is some wording I'd like to clear up before the debate begins.
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CLARIFICATIONS & DEFINITIONS
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Support --
I'd like to first mention that I believe homosexuality is a sin, and a grave one. I believe that, like predispositions God has given to others, homosexuality is a challenge that must be overcome. That does not, however, justify the aggregate Christian attitude towards LGBT people in the US and worldwide. Often, homosexuals see Christians as their enemy, and the way that many alleged followers of Christ treat them justify their thoughts. (this is not to insinuate my opponent is a gay-basher).

That being said, while homosexuality is a sin in my view (something we both agree on), when I say 'support' in this debate it will be in a very different context than what the world may convey - that is to say, I don't think homosexuality is acceptable, but I "support" gay rights and initiatives against measures such as Proposition 8 from a Biblical standpoint.

LGBT--
For the intents of this debate, I'll be referring to same-sex marriage, which does not include transgendered individuals per se. In my opinion, that is another debate for another time. However, if a transgendered woman wants to marry another woman, that is gay marriage for the purposes of this debate.

Prop 8--
Blanket term in the title for anti-gay marriage laws and initiatives in the US. I'll use it as a primary example, but the examples either of us may use are NOT limited to the Proposition 8 campaign.

Christian--
Simply put, a follower of Christ. In the terms of this debate, one who describes themselves as a follower of Christ who wholeheartedly believes in salvation through faith in Jesus.
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STRUCTURE
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The debate will begin in the second round, with my opponent accepting the debate and clarifying or arguing any definitions he deems necessary in the first round. Good luck!
SkepticsAskHere

Con

I thank my opponent for offering a truly unique debate to me. I am honored to be challenged and I accept.

The only definition that I have an issue with is Christian. I would define Christian as a Protestant Christian more specifically, because I'm not familiar with the extra books of the Catholic Bible. I also reserve the right to bring back up definitions in later rounds if need be.

I wish my opponent good luck and I look forward to seeing his constructive case.
Debate Round No. 1
the1000things

Pro

I’ll agree to your definition of a Christian for the purposes of this debate. I will not reference any Latin Vulgate or Orthodox Apocrypha at all. All Bible references will be made in the current edition of the 1984 NIV Bible. Now, let’s begin. The basic outline of my argument, is as follows:

  1. A Christian ought to emulate Jesus Christ.
  2. Christ wouldn’t have supported Proposition 8 (etc).
  3. Therefore, a Christian ought to vote against Prop 8.

The premise necessary to uphold my argument is that a Christian ought to emulate Jesus Christ. This, I believe, is a rather mild assumption; I’d venture to say the majority of Christians agree – I cannot imagine why they would disagree. Since Christianity itself is based on His teachings, it follows that a Christian should attempt to be as he was – perfect. Albeit impossible. There are numerous examples in the Bible detailing how it is good to be like Christ. I’ll just reference one. 1 John 3:7-8:

Dear children, do not let anyone lead you the wrong way. Christ is righteous. So to be like Christ a person must do what is right. The devil has been sinning since the beginning, so anyone who continues to sin belongs to the devil.

The real argument around this debate will be concerning a WWJD-esque scenario: would or would not Christ ‘support’ (ie, view as moral) Prop 8 and similar laws. – Point two of the outline above. I’m going to attempt to answer that as a ‘No’, using Jesus’ commands to Christians in The Bible.

Firstly, let’s set the stage for the criteria that my case is based on: saving souls. Jesus commands Christians to evangelize to all in Matthew 28:19-20:

Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.

Thus, we can conclude, that it is imperative to witness to others in any way possible, without sacrificing our doctrine. For instance, if the only way to convert a certain person is to kill, then that person wouldn’t be saved (at least at that time) – no Christian should violate God’s laws in order to win a convert to Christianity.

In a practical sense, by voting against Prop 8, Christians open the door for more converts and saved souls. I’ll explain why this isn’t a violation of Jesus’ commandments a little bit later, but for now, let me explain the mechanics of why it translates to more saved.

In our current society, Christians ostracize gays from the church community. Not all of them, of course, but a significant portion. The Barna Group, a conservative think tank (of sorts) run by George Barna, a prolific Christian author, conducted a study in 2009 about LGBT faith. The study found that a large portion of LGBT people believed in a God, and held that their religious values were at least somewhat important.†

Candace Chellew-Hodge, a Lesbian Christian, notes what she feels is a common sentiment from the LGBT community. Chellew-Hidge believes that Barna missed an important aspect of LGBT faith when taking the survey. She says:

What Barna misses here is the reason why gay adults are 50 percent more likely to be unchurched than straight adults – there are simply fewer churches where we can go and be accepted. Straight adults can walk into any town anywhere in the country and walk into any church on the corner without fear. They know that the majority of the time they will walk into a church that will affirm their beliefs, welcome them warmly, and make them feel safe and loved. The gay and lesbian Christian has no such assurance. ††

LGBT people often feel ostracized because of the attitude Christians have towards them, but more importantly, how Christians vote. If LGBT people see Christians as trying to take their freedom (even if they are celibate), as Chellew-Hodges mentions and many others echo, they see, and often correctly, a hostile attitude towards them that limits Christian's abilities to evangelize. After all, you wouldn't listen to someone who you thought was oppressing you. (The GOP also has a hostile stance, at least in the eyes of the LGBT community. It doesn't help that things like this exist, either. http://minnesotaindependent.com...)

Thus, if gays knew that Christians voted, en masse, against Prop 8 et al, then they'd be more open to church communities and evangelizing - so that they may hear the Word of God and may be saved.

A potential objection that is likely to be raised as your are reading is "But that's sacrificing Christian morals! We can't support a sin!" Normally, you'd be correct. Recall what I said earlier, "if the only way to convert a certain person is to kill, then that person wouldn’t be saved (at least at that time) – no Christian should violate God’s laws in order to win a convert to Christianity." Killing is against one of the Ten Commandments and is ostensibly condemned by Jesus. But - gay marriage and killing are not on the same plane. Remember that definition I use for support. I don't think homosexuality is acceptable, but I "support" gay rights and initiatives against measures such as Proposition 8 from a Biblical standpoint. That Biblical standpoint is saving people.

homosexuals will be homosexuals whether they are allowed to marry or not. If gay marriage was legal there would be little effect on Christianity and negligible effect on the number of gays. Someone is gay whether they are allowed to marry or not. Since a Christian, then, is not 'creating' someone who is homosexual by voting for Prop 8, it has no adverse religious effects when we look at the amount of souls save and people turned to celibacy if Prop 8 were to not have the support of the religious right.

In conclusion. Jesus came to Earth to save people. He commanded us to do the same. When we look at Prop 8 practically, we see that voting for Prop 8 as a Christian harms more than it helps because it ostracizes gays, making Christians (the chief proponents of Prop 8) responsible for their revulsion of Christianity. While it IS the duty of LGBT people to find God themselves, and hardening hearts is a grave thing to do, Christians are commanded to love and to be open, which we do NOT do when we support Prop 8. We thus discourage gays from coming to Christ - it is as if, in their eyes, we were trying to preach to those we enslaved (I realize the right to gay marriages ≠ slavery at all, but you understand my analogy).

Thus, the WWJD? component of my argument (point 2) is confirmed. Although Jesus doesn't dither in politics and never did, he made his commands to Christians clear: bring others to Christ. That can be best done to the LGBT community (as many as 20 million people in the US, by some estimates) by simply voting against Prop 8 - not affirming that homosexuality is OK, but letting out a clear message that Christians aren't hostile to gays.

† -"The Barna Group - Spiritual Profile of Homosexual Adults Provides Surprising Insights." Barna Update. The Barna Group, 2009. Accessed June 7 2011. [http://www.barna.org...]

†† - Chellew-Hodge, Candace. “New Poll Shows Gays and Lesbians Believe in God." Religion Dispatches. 25 June 2009. Accessed June 7 2011. [http://www.religiondispatches.org...] Chellew-Hodge is a pastor of Jubilee! Circle United Church of Christ in Columbia, S.C and is an author and magazine editor.

SkepticsAskHere

Con

I thank my opponent for offering me this debate, and I hope that I can shed some light on the subject.

The basic outline of my argument is as follows:

  1. A Christian ought to emulate Jesus Christ.
  2. Christ wouldn’t have supported Proposition 8 (etc).
  3. Therefore, a Christian ought to vote against Prop 8.

My opponent’s first claim is that we ought to emulate Christ and I agree. Then my opponent goes on to describe a classic What Would Jesus Do scenario. He makes several points in this scenario so I will divide them up.

Firstly, let’s set the stage for the criteria that my case is based on: saving souls. Thus, we can conclude, that it is imperative to witness to others in any way possible, without sacrificing our doctrine. For instance, if the only way to convert a certain person is to kill, then that person wouldn’t be saved (at least at that time) – no Christian should violate God’s laws in order to win a convert to Christianity. In a practical sense, by voting against Prop 8, Christians open the door for more converts and saved souls.

I underlined the portion of my opponent’s argument where he agrees that we should not sacrifice doctrine to witness to others. I simply wanted to point this out because he makes his actual argument later.

In our current society, Christians ostracize gays from the church community.

I will address this statement in my contention 1.

Candace Chellew-Hodge, a Lesbian Christian, notes what she feels is a common sentiment from the LGBT community. Chellew-Hidge believes that Barna missed an important aspect of LGBT faith when taking the survey. She says:

What Barna misses here is the reason why gay adults are 50 percent more likely to be unchurched than straight adults – there are simply fewer churches where we can go and be accepted.

Well this is an interesting point that homosexuals are less likely to attend church. This doesn’t surprise me either because of Isaiah 59:2 (It’s your sins that have cut you off from God. Because of your sins, he has turned away and will not listen anymore.) http://www.biblegateway.com... Sin causes separation from God, so the fact that homosexuals are less likely to attend church only provides evidence that it is a sin. I will offer verses in my contention to show that it is a sin, but the primary reason that homosexuals don’t attend church is because their sin has separated them from the spirit of God and the only way back is repentance.

LGBT people often feel ostracized because of the attitude Christians have towards them, but more importantly, how Christians vote.

I hope my opponent understands that in America we have what is called an Australian ballet, or a secret ballet. No one knows how you vote in any given situation unless you tell them. So really there is no way of knowing how Christians vote in reality unless one were to violate the right of a secret ballet.


A potential objection that is likely to be raised as your are reading is "But that's sacrificing Christian morals! We can't support a sin!" Normally, you'd be correct. Recall what I said earlier, "if the only way to convert a certain person is to kill, then that person wouldn’t be saved (at least at that time) – no Christian should violate God’s laws in order to win a convert to Christianity."

Well actual there a verses from the new and old testament that show what the Biblical standpoint on homosexuality in general is. I will present these verses in my contention 1. The statements my opponent has made are very fallacious. For example, sociopaths are going to continue to be sociopaths, so in hope to convert more people we should legalize murder. You could place any sin in the place of the underlined word and it you would end up with the same outcome. Because of this, my opponent’s analogy is faulty.

homosexuals will be homosexuals whether they are allowed to marry or not. If gay marriage was legal there would be little effect on Christianity and negligible effect on the number of gays. Someone is gay whether they are allowed to marry or not.

Well this might be true, however if we make it available to homosexuals to do things which are not supported by the Christian morality, they will be unwilling to relinquish those practices to be converted. This will only make it harder for a homosexual to become a Christian if they are already in sin.
Now on to my case.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will only have one contention in my case.

Contention 1: Love the sinner, hate the sin. My opponent’s main argument for Christians to vote against prop 8 was that Christians have ostracized gays so to win them back we must vote in their favor. Well there is a lack of something in today’s Christian circles today. That thing that is lacking is love. Of course Jesus said that the two greatest commandments were to love your God with everything you have, and then to love your neighbor as yourself. Today, Christians have shown hostility towards homosexuality and have been hateful towards anyone who bears this sin. However, Christians should realize that we are on equal ground. Is homosexuality a sin? Yes.

Lev. 18:22 , "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them."

1 Cor. 6:9-10, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,110nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

Rom. 1:26-28, "For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper."

However all have fallen short of the glory of God! (Romans 3:23). So Christians in no way should show hate towards brothers and sisters who have to struggle with this sin. We’re all in need of Christ, whether it be the man who struggles with homosexuality or the man who struggles with pornography. Homosexuality is a sin, so we should no way endorse its practices in any way, including SSM. However a better way to encourage people to the faith would to be to come from a place of humility and say, “Hey I’m a sinner, you’re a sinner, and we both need Christ just as much as anyone else here. I will love you as my brother/sister in Christ and we will encourage each other through our sins, so that we may grow closer to our creator!” That should be the Christian response, not to endorse a sin, but to embrace the sinner.

So in conclusion, it is my position that Jesus would not endorse gay marriage, he would rather love the sinner. There is no biblical evidence to as why Christ would support it. My opponent has agreed that in order to witness to other we should not sacrifice our values. So let us not sacrifice our doctrine by supporting this sin.

Sources:

http://carm.org...

http://www.biblegateway.com...

I look forward to my opponent’s response.

Debate Round No. 2
the1000things

Pro


Thanks for the response. In this round I'll begin by defending my arguments and proceed to deal with my opponent's case.


My Case


My opponent seems to have a few misconceptions concerning my case I’d like to clear up.


Being gay is not a sin. At all. Rather, acting on those impulses is the sin. Lust is the central sin dealt with, no matter straight or gay, and the fact that someone is “born” gay (I firmly believe they do not choose it) does not automatically doom them to hell. The notion that every single one of them is active sexually, as my opponent implies when he says that all LGBT men and women sin and thus are separate from God, is wrong. Please remember – I stated at the beginning that I believe that homosexuality is a sin – that is, gay sex is. Being gay is fine as long as you don’t act feelings.


Rather, every generation’s LGBT youth can just as easily be brought into the church as straight youth is they didn’t think we had such a hostile attitude. Many LGBT people aren’t necessarily repelled from church because of their sin (we all sin, yet there are millions upon millions of churchgoers in the US), but often because of – without sounding like a hippy – negative energy that literally radiates from a vast majority of Protestant churches in the US.


I hope my opponent understands that in America we have what is called an Australian ballet, or a secret ballet [sic]. No one knows how you vote in any given situation unless you tell them. So really there is no way of knowing how Christians vote in reality unless one were to violate the right of a secret ballet.


There is no way you can tell me that Christians aren’t the main supporters of Prop 8-esque laws. One of the sources you use in your case, CARM, at (http://carm.org...) confirms what everybody already knows. I quote:


The Christian church, however, has not stood idly by. When it has spoken out against this political immorality, the cry of "separation of church and state" is shouted at the so-called "religious bigots." But when the homosexual community attempts to use political power to try and control the church and get its agenda taught in schools, no such cry of bigotry is heard from the sacred halls of the media. Why? Because it isn't politically correct to side with Christians.


Ignore the false statements in the latter half of the paragraph (gays are trying to control the church?) and note the underlined phrase. We don’t need public ballots to see how a demographic generally votes. They tell us.


Well this might be true, however if we make it available to homosexuals to do things which are not supported by the Christian morality, they will be unwilling to relinquish those practices to be converted. This will only make it harder for a homosexual to become a Christian if they are already in sin.


This is absolutely true. No one is going to become gay because they can get married. They either are or they are not. As far as relinquishing those practices goes – the fact that someone is gay does not change. But most importantly: VOTING AGAINST PROP 8 DOES NOT MAKE GAY MARRIAGE LEGAL, IT MERELY DOESN’T MAKE IT ILLEGAL. By voting against Prop 8 a Christian doesn’t condone gay marriage – s/he merely avoids taking an overtly controversial and really unnecessary law


My Opponent’s Case


Let’s remember that I do believe homosexuality is a sin (at least to the point I clarified above – gay sex is, not being gay in and of itself).


Contention 1: Love the sinner, hate the sin. My opponent’s main argument for Christians to vote against prop 8 was that Christians have ostracized gays so to win them back we must vote in their favor . . .



  • Voting in their favor? Not quite. There’s a difference between voting for them and not voting against them. Remember: people will be LGBT anyways, but in a practical sense, the church can still maintain gay sex is wrong while making sure that people know we don’t all think gays are sub-human or second class citizens (which I’m sure is not the case, but is the common sentiment among the LGBT community and outside observers). Refer above: Prop 8 doesn’t make gay marriage legal.

  • Love is lacking, absolutely, and I’m not saying that we need to ONLY vote against Prop 8. It is, however, an important step – as I’ve maintained in my case. One great way to show that Christians are loving is to vote against Prop 8, as I held in my case.


Homosexuality is a sin, so we should no way endorse its practices in any way, including SSM.



  • Again, voting against Prop 8 does not make gay marriage legal, but recognizes that they have rights as well.


However a better way to encourage people to the faith would to be to come from a place of humility and say, “Hey I’m a sinner, you’re a sinner, and we both need Christ just as much as anyone else here. I will love you as my brother/sister in Christ and we will encourage each other through our sins, so that we may grow closer to our creator!” That should be the Christian response, not to endorse a sin, but to embrace the sinner.



  • Repeat. Voting against prop 8 wouldn’t endorse the sinner.


So in conclusion, it is my position that Jesus would not endorse gay marriage, he would rather love the sinner. There is no biblical evidence to as why Christ would support it. My opponent has agreed that in order to witness to other we should not sacrifice our values. So let us not sacrifice our doctrine by supporting this sin.



  • This was poor naming on my part. Jesus never says anything about homosexuality. It’s more or less all Paul and the Old Testament. Either way, though, there is no sacrificing of doctrine by voting against gay marriage – “the church can still maintain gay sex is wrong while making sure that people know we don’t all think gays are sub-human or second class citizens”. WWJD?, then, boils down to what they Bible tells us to do. And that is, save souls- which can be done easily if we make it ostensible our love for all people, whether straight or LGBT, by voting against Prop 8.



SkepticsAskHere

Con


Thanks for the response. In this round I'll start by combining my opponent’s main arguments and attack them as a whole. My opponent has made 5 main arguments listed below that have little to do with the resolution.


Being gay is not a sin. At all. Rather, acting on those impulses is the sin. Being gay is fine as long as you don’t act feelings.


This point is non-topical because of the fact that we are debating the acceptance of homosexual unions. This action goes far beyond the action of lust (which my opponent has agreed is a sin) so he is supporting a sin.


Many LGBT people aren’t necessarily repelled from church because of their sin


How do you know? My opponent has given no evidence why this would be true, while I have given the Biblical reason as to why homosexuals are more likely to not attend church.


There is no way you can tell me that Christians aren’t the main supporters of Prop 8-esque laws.


Yes, however just because the church has been known to ostracize homosexuals gives us no reason for us to endorse homosexual behavior. My entire contention was a counter-plan to show what the Christians response should be. Their response should be to support the sinner, not the sin.


This is absolutely true.


My opponent has agreed with the following statement: if we make it available to homosexuals to do things which are not supported by the Christian morality, they will be unwilling to relinquish those practices to be converted. This will only make it harder for a homosexual to become a Christian if they are already in sin.


Because he has agreed with statement then we can see that there is no reason to vote against prop 8.


VOTING AGAINST PROP 8 DOES NOT MAKE GAY MARRIAGE LEGAL, IT MERELY DOESN’T MAKE IT ILLEGAL. By voting against Prop 8 a Christian doesn’t condone gay marriage.


My opponent restates the obvious. However, I would like to point out that a vote against prop 8 would be a vote in favor of homosexual practices.


Now on to my contention.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


My opponent agrees with my case entirely that we should love the sinner in order to evangelize. He makes a few objections however I would like to say something. It seems as though my opponent’s whole argument is illogical. The second law of logic states that something cannot be true and not true at the same time speaking in the same sense. So let’s examine a few of my opponent’s claims. Disclaimer: Paraphrased by myself.


-Homosexual behavior is a sin


-A vote against prop 8 would support the recognition of domestic partnerships.


-We should not sacrifice doctrine in order to witness to others.


-We should support homosexual behavior in order to witness to others.


His entire argument is illogical and because it is such my opponent should lose this debate.


My opponent also makes the following remark.


This was poor naming on my part. Jesus never says anything about homosexuality. It’s more or less all Paul and the Old Testament.


Jesus said that he did not come to abolish the Law, but rather to fulfill the Law. Jesus is in support of the OT Laws, and therefore he would be in opposition to homosexual behavior. Because we can see that Jesus would not support homosexual behavior, Christians should not support homosexual behavior.


There are several reasons why I should win this debate. A few reasons are listed below:


-Opposition to prop 8 would only make it harder for a homosexual to become a Christian if they are already in sin. (My opponent has agreed with this.)


-My opponent’s entire argument is illogical.


- Jesus would not support homosexual behavior, so Christians should not support homosexual behavior.


-My opponent has given no logical Biblical evidence to show why we should support this.


So in conclusion, there are several reasons as to why a Christian ought to support prop 8. So let us not sacrifice our doctrine by supporting this sin.


I look forward to my opponent’s response.


Debate Round No. 3
the1000things

Pro

I'll summarize next round. For now, I'll refute the claims my opponent has made. Thanks for the response! Items which I will go over this round:
  1. A2 My arguments are illogical
    1. we sacrifice our doctrine to witness to gays in my case
    2. no logical Biblical evidence
    3. clarifications
  2. A2 Voting against Prop 8 supports homosexual acts
    1. Proposition 8 text & California
  3. Problems with my opponent's case
    1. Opposition to Prop 8 makes it easier for gays to sin.
    2. Jesus would not support homosexual behavior
    3. Conclusion, (pseudo) underview
I'll discuss these in order and give a brief summar of the debate so far at the end. Let's get started!

1. My Arguments are Illogical
Many of the logical fallacies my opponent lists are misunderstandings of what I stated or inaccurate interpretations of what I conclude.

1a. We sacrifice our doctrine to witness to gays
This is false. To back this claim, my opponent gives the following chain of logic that I supposedly use:
  1. Homosexuality is a sin
  2. A vote against Prop 8 would support the recognition of domestic partnerships
  3. We should not sacrifice our doctrine to witness to others
  4. We should support homosexual behavior to witness to others
The problems arise in 2 and, as a result, 4. I do not recall saying that Proposition 8 would recognize domestic partnerships, and if I did, this is false. Wisckol in the Orange County Register explains:
When the Supreme Court overturned Prop. 22 last year and ruled that gay marriage was legal, it noted nine minor differences between marriage and domestic partnership
This is implying that domestic partnerships were legal in California anyway (which they were) and the defeat of Prop 8 would merely keep the status quo: domestic partnerships would be the de facto as they were when the ballot measure began. Domestic partnerships are NOT marriage, and, as the article pointed out, somewhat dissimilar in social stigma - thus, the problems my opponent puts forward with gay marriages probably wouldn't hold in a domestic partnership well. †

Either way, the Proposition should have been voted against by Christians for another simple reason: tactically, they should have known it would fail, as the Supreme Court of California had ruled a similar measure (Proposition 22 of the year 2000) unconstitutional as well. It is failing today, with two federal judges and the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals upholding a stay on the decision (which means it really hasn't done anything, as it isn't taking effect).

As a result, 4 fails: with or without domestics partnerships, and with or without gay marriage, LGBT people would still acquire girlfriends or boyfriends at a presumably negligible increase or decrease. No matter what happens, people will come to God if they choose: no laws can change that or make that easier. A large study by the Family Research Council found that several gay men have over 500 partners in their lives - I'd contend that it'd be harder to give that up than a monogamous relationship! ††

The basic point is this: whether Proposition 8 passed or not would not change significantly the conversion rates of gays. Gay marriage is no obstacle for Jesus.

1b. There's not logical Biblical evidence given by my caseThe basis of my case is Jesus' Great Commission (shortly before his ascension) that states we need to save as many souls as possible. That's Matthew 28: 19-20. Since voting against Prop 8 would have no effect on that amount of gays, the actions of gays, the lifestyles of gays, or the conversion rates of gays, it follows that the most logical thing to do would be to vote against Prop 8 - maintaining the gay sex is a sin, but showing the LGBT population that even though homosexual acts are a sin, we're not a hostile mob of gay haters and are willing to work with them: we won't try to convert you via the state.

1c. Brief clarifications.
When I said "this is absolutely true" that was poor sentence structure on my part. I was not agreeing to your conclusion, but to this: "Well this might be true" which I quoted as the first few words of a block of text. I do not agree with the rest of the statement - I refute it in the following sentences.

2. Voting Against Prop 8 Support Homosexual Acts.
I've more or less dealt with this above. Negligible effect on gay lifestyles, and the church can maintain that homosexuality is a sin while giving a softer face.
2a. (Relevant) Text of Proposition 8
"Section 2. Article I. Section 7.5 is added to the California Constitution. to read: Sec. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California"

This ballot measure does not say "gay sex shall be illegal" - we're not talking about a Lawrence v Texas case here. It does not affect any gay lust at all. It doesn't even legalize gay marriage. Christians voting against this can still retain that homosexuality is a sin, while, like I've stated before, giving off a slightly more open face to LGBT people. Do you honestly think that anyone would consider a vote against Prop 8 by a conservative church as a sign that they've reversed hundreds of years of their respective doctrine? The church would tell the public why they voted (so as not to seem hostile to LGBT people) and move on. They'd look all the better.

3. My Opponent's Case
Going down the list.
3a. Voting No on Prop 8 Makes it Easier for Gays to Sin
I've already dealt with this extensively. See the section 1a and corresponding evidence † & ††.

3b. Jesus Wouldn't Support Homosexual Behavior
I agree. But remember, this isn't about whether to support gay sex, but Proposition 8, which, as I displayed above, is not connected to the number of gays that there are, etc. Voting against it would save souls, period - and open the doors for new Christians, which Jesus would be for. I believe I've fairly dealt with my opponent's case in the prior rounds and I've reiterated most of my points against it defending my own.

3c. So What do we Have Here?
Let's go down the chain
  1. Jesus commands us to save souls (Matt. 28 19-20)
  2. Homosexuality is a sin (all over the Bible)
  3. Voting against Prop 8 would not increase gay-related sins at all, or legalize gay marriage, so it wouldn't support a sin at all. (see 1a, 2a, and 3b) (supporting sources: Round 4 † and ††)
  4. Voting against Prop 8 allows the church to appeal to LGBT people without sacrificing doctrine in any way. (1 a, 2a) (Supporting sources Round 2 † and ††)
  5. Thus, it is logical to vote against Prop 8 as a Christian.
Clearly, my logic stands, and I deserve a Pro ballot. Thanks for reading!
SOURCES.

† Wisckol, Martin. "Gays Would Lose Few Legal Rights with Marriage Ban." Orange County Register. 4 Feb. 2009. Web.

†† A. P. Bell and M. S. Weinberg, Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women(New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978), pp. 308, 309; See also A. P. Bell, M. S. Weinberg, and S. K. Hammersmith, Sexual Preference (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1981)

SkepticsAskHere

Con

SkepticsAskHere forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
31 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Dmetal 6 years ago
Dmetal
Sin is pathetic!
Posted by the1000things 6 years ago
the1000things
Huh. Thanks for the info.
Posted by Contradiction 6 years ago
Contradiction
Unfortunately, debates in which a round is forfeited are not posted on the front-page. If you want people to vote, there's a "Post unvoted debates here" thread in the forums.
Posted by the1000things 6 years ago
the1000things
car towed? That sounds fun. SHouldn't this be listed on the front page by now?
Posted by SkepticsAskHere 6 years ago
SkepticsAskHere
2. Voting Against Prop 8 Support Homosexual Acts.

This point is exactly the same as his point about sacrificing doctrine in his first point.

3. My Opponent's Case

3a. Voting No on Prop 8 Makes it Easier for Gays to Sin

Weather it makes it easier for homosexuals to sin or not is irrelevant. It is the fact that Christians are sacrificing their doctrine by supporting a sin that is the issue.

3b. Jesus Wouldn't Support Homosexual Behavior
I agree. But remember, this isn't about whether to support gay sex.

Prop 8 is indirectly in support of homosexual activities, and therefore a Christian should not support the recognition of gay marriage. It is illogical to do anything else if you are a Christian.

3c. So What do we Have Here?
Let's go down the chain
1.Jesus commands us to save souls (Matt. 28 19-20)
2.Homosexuality is a sin (all over the Bible)
3.Voting against Prop 8 would not increase gay-related sins at all, or legalize gay marriage, so it wouldn't support a sin at all. (see 1a, 2a, and 3b) (supporting sources: Round 4 † and ††)
4.Voting against Prop 8 allows the church to appeal to LGBT people without sacrificing doctrine in any way. (1 a, 2a) (Supporting sources Round 2 † and ††)
5.Thus, it is logical to vote against Prop 8 as a Christian.
Let's go down the list from a Biblical perspective.
1.Jesus commands us to save souls (Matt. 28 19-20)
2.Homosexuality is a sin (all over the Bible)
3.Voting against Prop 8 would not increase gay-related sins at all, or legalize gay marriage, but it would indirectly support a sin.
4.Voting against Prop 8 does not allow the church to appeal to LGBT people because the individual votes remain secret.
5. Thus, it is illogical to support the recognition of homosexual partnerships.
I thank my opponent for the debate and I hope that the voters can see that my opponent's main argument is illogical.
Thank you for reading!
Posted by SkepticsAskHere 6 years ago
SkepticsAskHere
Sorry for forfeit, I was getting my car towed. So give my opponent the conduct but here's my last round if anyone cares:

I thank my opponent for making a layout for the remainder of the debate. It is very helpful.
1.A2 My arguments are illogical
a.we sacrifice our doctrine to witness to gays in my case
b.no logical Biblical evidence
c.clarifications
2.A2 Voting against Prop 8 supports homosexual acts
a.Proposition 8 text & California
3.Problems with my opponent's case
a.Opposition to Prop 8 makes it easier for gays to sin.
b.Jesus would not support homosexual behavior
c.Conclusion, (pseudo) under view

1. My Arguments are Illogical
Many of the logical fallacies my opponent lists are misunderstandings of what I stated or inaccurate interpretations of what I conclude.
My opponent thinks that I am misinterpreting his arguments. However, I understand the point he is making and I get what he is trying to say. He has violated the second laws of logic by saying that we shouldn't sacrifice our doctrine to witness, but then we should sacrifice Christian doctrine (by supporting homosexual unions) in order to save souls. This is an illogical statement. My opponent's entire case relies upon this argument which is illogical. Because this is true, I should win this debate.

1a. We sacrifice our doctrine to witness to gays

My opponent goes on to explain how we are not sacrificing our doctrine because prop 8 was only in recognition of domestic partnerships. Well it should be the Christian position to not recognize these partnerships because it is an abomination before God. We should not support a sin in anyway. To deny this is to say that the Bible is flawed.

1b. There's not logical Biblical evidence given by my case The basis of my case is Jesus' Great Commission (shortly before his ascension

Yes, but my opponent made the statement that we should not sacrifice our doctrine in order to save souls so there is no place in scripture where it sa
Posted by SkepticsAskHere 6 years ago
SkepticsAskHere
Oh well it was a bit hard to read, but don't worry about it
Posted by the1000things 6 years ago
the1000things
sorry for the weird formatting in that round... not sure what happened.
Posted by Freeman 6 years ago
Freeman
@Contradiction

How is this not stealth bigotry? --->
Posted by SkepticsAskHere 6 years ago
SkepticsAskHere
don't wprry about it
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by GMDebater 6 years ago
GMDebater
the1000thingsSkepticsAskHereTied
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Reasons for voting decision: pro gets conduct because of the forfeit. However, I will be voting for the rest after I have more time to review the debate.
Vote Placed by NextLevelSwag 6 years ago
NextLevelSwag
the1000thingsSkepticsAskHereTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Forfeit, but logic points
Vote Placed by Dmetal 6 years ago
Dmetal
the1000thingsSkepticsAskHereTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Con forfeited.
Vote Placed by Spartan 6 years ago
Spartan
the1000thingsSkepticsAskHereTied
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Reasons for voting decision: .