The Instigator
Double_Helix46
Pro (for)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
annanicole
Con (against)
Winning
13 Points

A Christian can not lose salvation

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
annanicole
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/24/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 4,035 times Debate No: 26282
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (29)
Votes (4)

 

Double_Helix46

Pro

Annanicole and myself have discussed this topic at length in the forums. This has resulted into this debate at hand. The object of this debate will be for us both to bring forth our interpretation of scripture to determine who is more convincing for readers.

Resolution: A Christian can not lose salvation!

This resolution maintains that a person has become Christian by salvation through Jesus Christ. That because of that salvation they have eternal life and can never lose it by any actions that comes forth. I shall show that if one refuses God, they have never received salvation from Jesus Christ. I think I should define what a Christian is and what salvation is right now.

Christian: Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. Not just a member of a Christian church or born into a Christian family. One who believes, has faith and received Jesus Christ. One who has been baptised and born again in the blood of Christ.

Salvation: The act of grace from Jesus Christ by protecting one from harm, risk, loss, destruction, in eternal damnation. To gain eternal life through Jesus Christ.

BOP is upon both. I must show hat salvation is eternal and an not be lost once it has been given. My opponents must show that one who has receive salvation from Christ can lose it.

Rules:
1. No semantics
2. Must stay on topic
3. First round is for acceptance/Last round no new arguments allowed

GL!
annanicole

Con

I am happy to accept the challenge and, of course, cannot offer any negations in this acceptance; therefore, I shall merely clarify my position: my position is that a Christian - one who has trusted in Christ, repented of his sins, confessed his faith in Christ, and been baptized into Christ - can in fact conduct himself in such a way as to forfeit his hope of eternal life. The natural end or ultimate calamity of this "conduct himself in such a way" is to revert to disbelief, so the question then becomes, "Can a Christian (believer) cease to believe?" My position is that certainly a Christian possesses the liberty of thought or action and may, for whatever reason, become an unbeliever. If not, why not? Well, it will remain for my opponent to explain this impossibility for us: if an unbeliever possesses the right or liberty of thought or free-will to become a believer, why does he suddenly lose this right? And I'll submit, just for thought, that my opponent's position seems to imply a series of miracles upon every saved person in the world, constantly, lest any one of them might drift into atheism.

Now to the definitions:

Christian: My opponent and I are both presupposing salvation - that a Christian is the equivalent of a saved person, even if our specifics may differ as to the "how".

Salvation: Of course, this debate revolves or will revolve in large part upon these terms so I shall launch forth: my opponent defines "salvation" as "to gain eternal life through Jesus Christ." Well, that's an excellent definition, and I concur, but I also inquire, "to gain eternal life - in what sense?" That is the important point. How? In what sense?

Do you have it in the same sense as the peerless apostle to the Gentiles?


"will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: but to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath." (Rom 2: 6-8)


Or as the apostle whom Jesus loved?


"If that which you have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, you also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the
promise that he has promised us, even eternal life." (I John 2: 24-25)


Or as Paul said in TItus 1: 2?


"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."


Thus, combining the verses (and others), I'd say that you or I or any other Christian has eternal life in this sense: we have it in promise; we have it in prospect; we seek it; we yearn for it; we hope for it. So the fact is that we have eternal life. The how is "in promise, in hope, in prospect." Our spirits have eternal existence anyhow, for better or worse. My body, however, is mortal - until the second coming.


My opponent also defines salvation as: "The act of grace from Jesus Christ by protecting one from harm, risk, loss, destruction, in eternal damnation." Well, salvation is an act of grace for sure, for we all will agree that salvation is unearned even if one must comply with certain conditions in order to receive it. The question, as always, is, "Does one have to comply with certain conditions, i. e. belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, in order to keep it?" No one, including me, questions your definition as it refers to a faithful Christian - a Christian who is walking in His light (according to His teachings).


"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (I Jn 1: 7).

I'd be happy to define "salvation" as "the state of being cleansed from all sin." That would be a pretty safe one, wouldn't it? I'd like to know, however, what becomes of the fellow who flat-out refuses to walk in any "light" at all - all the way to the point of disbelief? Is that possible, and, if not, why the warning? The same sentiment is expressed in Rom 8: 1:


"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."


Why, certainly not. There cannot be any condemnation to a character such as that: he is "in Christ Jesus", and he is not walking "after the flesh", but "after the Spirit." To walk "after the Spirit" is to be led by the teachings of the Spirit in the word of God and is synonymous with "walk in the light." That's a faithful Christian. How about this Christian if he simply decides to "walk after the flesh" - again, to the point of disbelief in Jesus Christ, period? Is the blood of Christ still cleansing him?


I hope that clarifies (somewhat, anyway) my views of the definitions. "Salvation" and "eternal life" are used in different senses at times; thus, the precise definition is context-dependent:


"Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls." (I Pet 1: 9) is a tad different than "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, 'Save yourselves from this untoward generation'." (Acts 2: 40)


As far as BOP, as I stated in the Forum Section, my primary goal will be to simply negate the passages or whatever else my opponent might introduce. And I shall be happy to affirm "A child of God - a Christian - can be lost" or something to that effect in another debate.


This concludes my comments on the definitions, and I hope more clearly defines the issue. And here it is, and this is what it will boil down to: can a man who believes today ever quit believing? Any arguments about "a faithful child of God cannot be lost" are not even relevant, but this is:

"Can a faithful child of God, one who believes in Him, and accepts Him and becomes pardoned ... can that man ever cease to be a believer? Does that freedom of choice exist, and can it be exercised? If not, what prevents it?"

That, I believe, is the issue boiled down in its last analysis.


Best wishes as my opponent begins his affirmative.


Debate Round No. 1
Double_Helix46

Pro

I thank Annanicole for accepting this debate. This debate is not one that threatens one's salvation but leads one into false teaching to those who already have salvation and those seeking it. So we are here to clarify our positions on this issue. I will start off with the topics my opponent mentioned in her opening round and then move on to my argument.

MY OPP/R1)


I reject the idea that once a person who has gained eternal salvation will cease to believe in God. I can accept that one's faith or belief can weaken by hardships but will never cease completely. It is my contention that once a person gains eternal salvation they are a new creature in Christ. This does not mean they become sinless or never find hardships again to test their faith but that their faith will always remain either strong or weak. They never lose free-will to choose sin over righteousness but what they do gain in salvation is the overwhelming conviction for repentence unto God and the desire to spread God's love and word to others when oppurtunity provides. I deny the fact that a truely born-again Christian in Christ can ever fully walk away from Him. I ask my opponent how can one who gained salvation and became a new creature within Christ then become the old creature again or lose that grace? There have been many who believe, in fact satan believes in Christ, but they refuse His powers and salvation grace, making them to not ever recieve the full grace of salvation.


MY ARGUMENT


C1) Grace not works


If we were to believe that we could lose salvation then that would lead us to try and keep it by works and this is not the case(Gal 3:1-6). The true gain of salvation is not by works but by faith and grace alone(Rom. 4:3-25;Rom. 6:14-23; Eph. 2:5-10). Our salvation is by accepting Christ by His sacrifice and by no works of the self. Many shall do good works in the name of God and still they are not of God but of themselves, seeking salvation by good works and that is not possible(Mat. 7:21-23; Rom 11:5-6). Once salvation is given then works do follow and we see this throught the book of James. This does not mean that we need to do works to recieve salvation or we must continue to do works to keep it. If our faith is strong in Christ then many works will show that but if we become weak in our faith then so will our works become less. We are to live as saints and holy once we recieve salvation(1 Thes. 4:1-9). We are born again as Sons of God and are passed from death into life(John 10:27).


A person can appear to be saved then seemingly fell away from Christ completely but they were never truely known by Christ. The gospel says that Christ's true sheep shall never perish(John 10:28; John 3:15). Going back to the statement that one can become weak in faith but that faith still rest inside them, even if they deny it. They can deny it but later it will become stronger even after many years. This clearly shows that the person did not fully lose it even if they claimed too. If the gospel tells us that we cannot perish then how does one lose salvation? How can we be seprated from God when the gospel suggests that nothing can seperate us?


Salvation is not dependant on anything we have done but what Christ has done. Therefore keeping salvation is not by anything we do or not done and we can not lose it. We are saved by the actions of Christ and not any of our own. Claming that we must always obey God or live as the Word suggest to maintain our salvation is equal to saying that Jesus's death was not enough for our salvation(Rom. 5:8; 1 Cor. 15:3; Titus 3:5).


C2) New creature in Christ


As I said in RD.1 to be a Christian is not just someone who says prayers, or went to church, or is just part of a Christian family. These are no doubt part of the Christian life, they are not what makes someone a Christian. A true Christian is by faith, who has fully recieved Christ, who fully trust and believes in Him and His Word(John 3:16; Acts 16:30-31; Eph. 2:8-9). There are many who appear this way by actions and words but in their heart they do not truely believe or have faith.


My opponent will say that if we do not live a good Christian life then we will have our salvation took away. Or that the person can fully fall away from God and will go to hell once salvation had once been granted. This is not true, God will not cast away what He hath purchased(Rom. 11:1-3). In fact salvation is forever lasting(Isa 51:6-8).


Christ has redeemed us and made us new creatures in Him(2 Cor. 5:15-19; Luke 5:38; Mat. 9:17; 1 Pet. 1:18-19). For us to lose salvation that once was gained then the new creature would have to be reversed. God would have to reverse the purchase He made and paid for us with His own blood. Once we have become a new creature in Christ then it is impossible to seperate us from Him. We are preserved in Christ(1 Thes. 5:23; Jude 1:1). How can one be preserved in Christ then become unpreserved?


C3) Salvation is eternal


There many verses that suggest that you cannot lose salvation(John 10:25-29;Heb. 13:5-7; 1 John 2:19-21; Rom. 8:38-39; 1 John 5:13). We are clearly justified with Christ alone(Rom. 5:1). If we could lose salvation then that would mean that we are not justified by Christ blood alone but by our own actions. The only action required from us is the action of acceptance. That acceptance is in Christ, in repentance and in faith. In John 3:16 we are told we have eternal life by God's salvation, how then can God break that clear promise given by taking it away at some point?


We are granted glorification for who God makes justified(Rom 3:8; Rom. 8:30; Gal 2:16; Gal 3:24). If we are justified, then how can one lose salvation? This would make this verse a error and does not give us any guarantee at all. Eternal life can not be given and then be took back if it was eternal to begin with, that would be a lie.


We are have been entrusted and sealed with salvation(Eph. 1:11-13;2 Pet. 3:9). God is also not slack, He does not break His promises. Once we have called upon Christ for salvation and sought Him with repentance, we are saved. We can commit horrible sins and still hold on to salvation but that does not mean we will not answer for them. All we have to do is put our full faith in Christ to recieve salvation and it is perminate. We are even allowed to go in and out of the door given us(John 10:9).


We can not lose our salvation, ever, once it is given unto us.


REFERENCES:


http://carm.org... http://www.gotquestions.org... http://www.dividedbytruth.org... http://www.biblebelievers.com... http://www.truthortradition.com...http://robertwells.tripod.com...


Back to my opponent.......

annanicole

Con

Thanks to my opponent for his affirmative, and I shall go step-by-step and analyze it.

First off, I had inquired, "Can a faithful child of God, one who believes in Him, and becomes pardoned ... can that man ever cease to be a believer? His answer: "I reject the idea that once a person who has gained eternal salvation will cease to believe in God", and "I deny the fact that a truely born-again Christian in Christ can ever fully walk away from Him." "Then your answer is, "No.""

But there was more to the question: I continued and asked, "Does that freedom of choice exist, and can it be exercised? If not, what prevents it?" I even stated that your position demands continuous miracles. I trust that an explanation will be forthcoming.

You ask: "I ask my opponent how can one who gained salvation and became a new creature within Christ then become the old creature again or lose that grace?"

"Why, by exercising his God-given right to think, analyze,and make his choices. In the first century, a paramount problem was the reversion to Judaism, which was and is characterized by the rejection of Jesus as the Son of God. Apparently that problem plagued the Christians in Galatia: "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free. (Gal 5: 1) That statement is the equivalent of saying they are saved. Now what? Well, the instructions: "be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage." The yoke of bondage was Judaism. Notice that the warning implies possibility? It could happen. Continue to Gal 5: 4: "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." That is how one can "lose that grace": he can simply reject it. And if he does, then Christ "is become of no effect unto you." He once was "of effect," now he has "become of no effect." Thus, the warning which, like any warning, implies danger. Therefore, "let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." (I Cor 10: 12)

***

"If we were to believe that we could lose salvation then that would lead us to try and keep it by works and this is not the case."

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil 2: 12)How about you re-word your statement just a tad to this: "If we were to believe that we could lose salvation then that would lead us to try and keep it by continuing to believe, and this is not the case. See? That won't work, will it?

***

"Our salvation is by accepting Christ by His sacrifice and by no works of the self."

Well, that's not the topic, but I'll simply point out that the statement itself is contradictory. You are telling people, "There's nothing you can do", then turning around and telling them what they have to do. Who had to "accept Christ""? Somebody did. If someone "accepts Christ", then he has done something. And if he did something, he "worked" either mentally or physically.

Hear your words:

"If we could lose salvation then that would mean that weare not justified by Christ blood alone but by our own actions. The only action required from us is the action of acceptance."

Look at that. You attempt to prove that salvation is not maintained based upon actions. And what is your basic argument? That initial salvation was not based upon, in any way, your own actions. Then you do a two-step and say, "The only action required from us ..." "Sir, I could care less if it's one action or one thousand prior to salvation: you still conceded your entire point by saying, "The only action required ..."


***

"Once salvation is given then works do follow and we see this throught the book of James."

What we see in James is: “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? … Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone … Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (v. 14, 17, 24) Your doctrine seems to me to be: “I was given salvation based upon a dead faith – and I can ride my dead faith on to heaven.”

***

How can we be seprated from God when the gospel suggests that nothing can seperate
us?”

Actually, the Bible says the opposite: “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” (Isa 59: 2)

Nothing can separate you? What if you simply forsake God? Of course, you said such was not possible, but nonetheless:

“The LORD is with you, while you are with him; and if you seek him, he will be found of you; but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.” (II Chron 15: 2)

You might not be separated from the love of God, but you can forsake Him– and thus separate yourself from Him.

***

This clearly shows that the person did not fully lose it even if they claimed too. If the gospel tells us that we cannot perish then how does one lose salvation?”

You mean to tell us that a person can renounce Jesus Christ, curse God, and engage in all manner of evil, but if he was ever saved, he is still saved?

***

“God will not cast away what He hath purchased(Rom. 11:1-3).”

He won’t? “if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.” (I Chron 28: 9)

***

“For us to lose salvation that once was gained then the new creature would have to be reversed.”

Your use of “reversed” is synonymous with:

(1)
Falling away, fallen from grace
(2)
Will not renew again unto repentance
(3)
Crucifying the Son of God afresh
(4)
Putting Him to an open shame.
(5)
Severed from Christ
(6)
Entangled again

as used in Gal 5 and Heb 6. If such cannot occur, then why all the warnings? Notice that in each and every descriptor, man – not God - is the perpetrator. Yet you say,God would have to reverse the purchase He made.” God doesn’t “have to” reverse anything because salvation is conditional in the first place.

But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the
blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (I John 1: 7)

Notice that pesky “if”? The blood of Christ continually cleansing you is the means of continuity of salvation. But it is conditional. And again:

"By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.” (I Cor 15: 2)

Once again, conditional.

“for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end” (Heb 3: 14)

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard …” (Col 1: 23)

Why all those “ifs”? One reason: salvation, whether initial or life's end, is conditional.


***

Eternal life can not be
given and then be took back if it was eternal to begin with, that would be a lie."


Well, Joshua 6: 2, "See, I have given into thine hand Jericho." Alright. Did the Israelites literally have Jericho at that time?

Eternal life is a promise.

Eternal life is a hope. “"In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began." (Titus 1: 2)

Eternal life is rendered as a reward, a gift: "... will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: but to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath." (Rom 2: 6-8)

We have eternal life now. How? Just as Paul did when he penned Titus. In hope. By promise based upon the surety of God’s word. In glad expectation. Thus I Pet 1: 9:

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

You try to invert and put the “salvation of your soul” way back yonder at the beginning. Literally. Then claim you can’t lose it and try to formulate an argument based upon it.

“... be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” (Rev 2: 10)


Thanks, and I'll turn it back over to the affirmative.
Debate Round No. 2
Double_Helix46

Pro

Thanks to my opponent for her reply!

Unbelievably as a Christian she does not believe miracles happens. This is a odd attitude given she believes in a God that clearly makes miracles happen throughout the same book her and I read and believe. My opponent did not remark on the Biblical passages I supplied that affirmed my resolution.

1 Corinthians 12:28, "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"

What IF's

My opponent asks, "Why all those "ifs"?"

She is suggesting that there are so many 'ifs and buts' in the policy of salvation that it simply means that it is conditional. Maybe that logic makes sense to you, but it sounds rather bogus to me. Meaning as to warnings. She seems to assume that if our salvation is secure in Christ by what He has done that there would be no possible explanation for Paul to warn them. She is suggesting that there is no alternative as what his warnings are about. If not, then you are only forcing Paul's words to comply with a doctrine instead of the other way around. It seems to be a particular teaching of true communication by Paul to this specific group of believers. I believe if the little word 'if ' really means what it says then it has to fit the whole context of the whole letter and Bible. The passages you have supplied still circle around the wonderful grace of this undeserved, freely given, and secure salvation of Christ. Considering the short text of a letter you must consider the whole letter and not just the selected portion. These verses supply free grace and eternal salvation. (John 10:25-29;Heb. 13:5-7; 1 John 2:19-25; Rom. 8:33-39; 1 John 5:7-21; Heb. 5:1-9; 2 Tim 2:1-13).

If a line is quoted from one of my favorite stories I do not for a moment view it in isolation from its relation to the whole thing, including many intricate details and related characters. Those who are unfamiliar with the story merely hear a quote, and have no idea what is behind it, and therefore can only speculate its meaning. This is what my opponent is trying to do here.

Rebuttal

My opponent seemed to not comprehend that my position in this debate is that one can not lose salvation once it has been given. She precedes into sarcastic remarks for her lack of understanding. She was correct to assume I say that one can not lose salvation IF it is given.

We all have a freedom of choice of course and we can exercise it. But the real question is, what prevents the saved from walking away forever from God if one chooses? Our salvation in Christ does. We read below that we are new creatures and that nothing not even ourselves can pluck us out of God's hands. Will my opponent suggest that we can overcome God?

2 Corinthians 5:17, "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:" John 10:28-29, "I give unto them eternal life;.they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.; No man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." Romans 8:35, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?" Nothing, not even ourselves once salvation has been given.

My opponent then suggests that a gift of God by His grace is still work in progress. When we are given a present or gift did we work to receive it? No, we did not. God gave us the gift of salvation and all we must do is open our hearts to receive it and it is ours forever. She hints that we should not freely take the gift of Christ but we should seek to go out and work for something that is freely given. No the truth is we work when we already have freely accepted salvation. Our work therefore is joyful work because we have received free salvation. When we love someone do we workout our hearts to love them? I do not think so, love is free and it is given freely. God loves us and freely gives us the gift of salvation to just accept, if we choose and many do not.

Me and my opponent will agree that once one is saved then their works will show it some how and some way. Though she goes further into saying we need those works to maintain salvation. Works are the outward acts but for the purpose of receiving merit they are of no value for attaining salvation. Those who trust in Jesus Christ will produce works that are motivated by the Spirit.

Rom. 3:28-30, "justified by faith apart from works" Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, faith is reckoned as righteousness" Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith" Rom. 9:30, "righteousness which is by faith" Rom. 10:4, "righteousness to everyone who believes" Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace." Gal. 2:16, "man is not justified by the works..but through faith in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:5-6, "Does He..who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles..do it by the works..or by hearing with faith?" Gal. 3:24, "that we may be justified by faith" Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith" Phil. 3:9, "the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."

My opponent says my use of "reversed" is synonymous with the following:

(1) Falling away, fallen from grace

(2) Will not renew again unto repentance

(3) Crucifying the Son of God afresh

(4) Putting Him to an open shame.

(5) Severed from Christ

(6) Entangled again

None of the following above are definitions of receiving the complete gift of salvation. Notice that in my previous round that I said one can not lose salvation or that God will not cast you out from salvation once you have been given that gift. One cannot be severed from that to which he was not joined. We are dealing with apostate children of God. These expressions must be understood as explicit denials of salvation. The reason there was no renewal of repentance for this state was because they were taught the gift of Christ and the gospel and the Spirit of God could not any longer penetrate their hardened hearts and convict them of their sins. They chose to either live by the O.T. and works alone or total refusal of salvation and repentance all together.

My opponent then gives us a O.T. passage in (Isa 59: 2) to confirm that we can be separated from God once salvation has been given. Christ had not came and sacrificed Himself with the gift of salvation by grace at that point.

Jude 1:19, "These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit."

My opponent asked, "If a person can renounce Jesus Christ, curse God, and engage in all manner of evil, but if he was ever saved, he is still saved?"

Why would the saved, one given the gift, one given the spirit of God, do any of those things? If we are saved we have the Spirit working in us and burdening us. Even though our lives may become hard and difficult. We always have joy for our gift of salvation that has been given freely to us. If one is not experiencing the power of the Gospel in their heart and life they could be believing in vain. The Word tells us to examine ourselves to see if we be in the faith. Devils believe but they are not saved. They miss the saving Grace. The Spirit will witness in our hearts. God will never turn His back on the saved. The devil cannot pry us out of Christ.

References

http://www.biblicaltheology.com... http://carm.org...

annanicole

Con

Thanks to my opponent for his reply.

I stated “
that your position …” (a saved person cannot become an unbeliever) “… demands continuous miracles. I trust that an explanation will be forthcoming.” Here’s the explanation:

Unbelievably as a Christian she does not believe miracles happens.”

That’s it. Of course, the truth of the matter is that neither my opponent nor anyone else can dream up a plausible explanation for this mysterious inability to quit believing in Jesus Christ. There is no logical explanation. Thus, does not his position entail, or rather demand, a continual series of miracles on each saved person lest he be tempted and drawn back into atheism – or Judaism – or some other “ism”? This “explanation” has turned out to be an “assertion”: just explain it away as a miracle and move on.

Well, I believe that miracles were performed to confirm the now-completed, all-sufficient revelation and to attest to the veracity of the speaker. Miracles were to last until early Christians - without the completed Word - attained the unity of the faith (Eph 4: 8-14). Since we have the complete, authoritative, all-sufficient and confirmed Word of God today, there is no need for miracles now – and that’s that. The Bible stands confirmed. That was the purpose of miracles: confirmation of the Word.

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." (Mark 16: 20)

***

“She is suggesting that there are so many 'ifs and buts' in the policy of salvation that it simply means that it is conditional.”

I sure am, and my opponent takes a passage like “if we walk in the light, as He is in the light …the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin", and says that the blood will cleanse you whether you walk in the light or not. Or he says you’re forced to walk in the light, and there's no such thing as not walking in the light. Which is it?


Again: “If you forsake Him, He will forsake you.” (II Chron 15: 2) Does my opponent say that if you forsake Him, He will not forsake you? If so, that's a big difference! And if “forsaking Him” is impossible, why waste time on an impossibility? Why all these warnings over impossible, unfathomable scenarios?

***

The passages you have supplied still circle around the wonderful grace of this undeserved, freely given, and secure salvation of Christ.”


They do not “circle around.” They very plainly warn against certain things such as “forsaking God” and “forgetting God.” By the way, can a person forget God? I’d say so:

“So are the paths of all that forget God; and the hypocrite's hope shall perish.” (Job 8: 13)

“Can a maid forget her ornaments, or a bride her attire? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.” (Jer 2: 32)

And what is God’s response? Hear it:

“Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: and I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.” (Jer 23: 39, 40)

Now you say that can’t happen. Why on earth the repeated warnings, dozens of
them, over an impossibility? That makes no sense to me.

***

These verses supply free grace and eternal salvation. (John 10:25-29;Heb. 13:5-7; 1 John 2:19-25; Rom. 8:33-39; 1 John 5:7-21; Heb. 5:1-9; 2 Tim 2:1-13).

Not a one of them talks about an unconditional salvation.

***

We all have a freedom of choice of course and we can exercise it. But the real question is, what prevents the saved from walking away forever from God if one chooses? Our salvation in Christ does.”

So the explanation is that our salvation in Christ forces us to not choose to walk away from God forever? Pardon me, but when a passage plainly says,

“If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake Him, He will cast thee off forever.” (I Chron 28: 9), it just seems to me that forsaking God is a possibility or again the words have no meaning at all.

***

John 10:28-29, "I give unto them eternal life; they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand”

He assumes that the passage refers to literal eternal life right now – not the kind Paul had. Paul was a “sheep” who followed Christ, and what did he say about it? Paul was still "in hope of eternal life, which God ... promised before the world began." (Titus 1: 2). My opponent thinks he has it right now, actually and literally – and that’s just one difference between him and Paul.

Truth is that the passage doesn’t fit my opponent’s doctrine at all. Why? Because it has the “eternal life” given after the “following.” His position, although incorrect, is that eternal life is given as a “free gift” before the “following.” If he puts it after the “following”, he concludes that he’s “earning” something.

Don’t you think that “eternal life” might refer to heaven in this passage? Is that why Paul was "In hope of eternal life, which God promised before the world began?" Thus, the “eternal life” here coincides with the “end of your faith” – not the beginning: “receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.” (I Pet 1: 9)

***

“When we are given a present or gift did we work to receive it?”

My opponent answers, “No, we did not.”

Now watch. He’s not done. After telling you that you do nothing – or else he thinks you’re trying to earn salvation, he proceeds to tell you what you absolutely must do.

Here it is: “All we must do is open our hearts to receive it and it is ours forever.” See it? “All we must do”. We do it. If we “do” it, it is a work.

And watch again: he thus disproves his own contention because he contends that we do nothing to be saved, thus we do nothing to stay saved. Then he disproves his conjectures by telling us “all we must do” to receive salvation. Blatant contradiction.

And next he’ll be telling us that although we “must do” it, and we do it, and we did it, we really didn’t do it, so what we did (but really didn’t do) doesn’t count as a work.


Every time he starts explaining salvation, it will seem unconditional - you’ll hear words like “free gift” alot - until the very end: then he’ll slip in a vague disclaimer like “you must open your hearts to receive it.”

Let's be specific. Does “opening your hearts” include repentance? Does it include belief? Does it include love? By the time we’re done, I surmise it’ll be a lot more than “nothing”. It always is.

***

“One cannot be severed from that to which he was not joined.”

Absolutely not. I’ve said the same thing many times.

Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.” (Gal 5: 4, ASV)

The “Ye” could not be severed from that to which they were not joined. We know that much because you just said it. And the “ye” in that passage is the “us” in Gal 5: 1:

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.”

So they were joined to Christ – saved. Now they are severed and fallen away from grace. Is your position that a man who is severed from Christ and fallen away from grace is still saved? If so, I wish you’d explain it because it looks to me like those folks were saved, then severed … cut off … due to

1. Becoming entangled again with the yoke of bondage, which is
2. Synonymous with a return to Judaism, which is
3. Synonymous with a denial that Jesus is the Son of God, which is
4. Synonymous with a believer becoming an unbeliever, which
5. You have repeatedly told us could not happen.

Could you please explain that again, step by step?


***

I shall quickly introduce King Saul - he is an interesting character: chosen of God, anointed, given another heart, Spirit came upon him, prophesied, prayed, worshipped. He had every appearance of a saved man. Then the Spirit left him, the Lord left him, he became God's enemy. I'll mention him further, but I wanted to briefly introduce his story.


Thanks. Back to the affirmative.








Debate Round No. 3
Double_Helix46

Pro

Thanks to my opponent for her reply!

This is the last round and I remind my opponent that no new arguments can be made here. I will just focus on what has been said by countering my opponent and clarifying my resolution.

Rebuttal/Affirmation

My opponent asserts that miracles do not happen today and even further back to the completion of the scriptures. I would call salvation of anyone a application of a miracle. Anything that God will and can do can be labeled as a miracle. God still answers prayers today, He still heals and sustains many. The difference is that God does His work through natural means for the eyes of men today but there is means working behind the scenes that man cannot see that are still miraculous. Miracles are never at a end.

She also suggest that I answered the question of a saved person becoming a unbeliever as a miracle. That would be correct since I am the one suggesting that if one is truly saved then one cannot lose that salvation and become an unbeliever in Christ, indeed, a saved person losing salvation would be a miracle. She gives claims that I am looking for miracles for one to keep salvation but fails to see that miracles must be performed for one to lose what they have already received. No, in fact one miracle is performed the person gaining salvation and if one never has salvation then no miracle was performed at all.

My opponent says that I am putting a force of obedience upon the saved. If we have received a gift of salvation from Christ, we accept it willingly, not by force or by any works we performed. She is confusing being compelled to do something as also meaning being forced. She would be incorrect. The saved person feels a overwhelming feeling to do works for Christ and to walk in the light. This feeling comes by our thanks and movement by the Holy Spirit. As a saved person, we can chose to make mistakes or to not live Christian like at times, many do, many times, for long periods, though that does not mean salvation is lost at any point. This is simply the sinful nature of men, all men. If one has received salvation and slacks then our repentance will become to burdensome to bear and we will always return to Christ like behavior. I am not suggesting that we do not stumble. I am suggesting that our stumble is never a threat to our salvation.

My opponent is maintaining that we have to do works to receive salvation. Salvation is a gift.

Romans 5:15, "the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many."

Romans 5:17, "receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness..in life by one, Jesus Christ."

Romans 12:6, "Having then gifts..according to the grace that is given to us."

Ephesians 2:8. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Ephesians 3:7, "according to the gift of the grace of God."

1 Peter 4:10, "As every man hath received the gift."

If I sit on my couch, with my arms laid back, feet kicked up and my friend(Christ) comes over and says to me, "I have a gift for you. Do you want it?" I ask, what do I have to do for it? He says, "Just accept it." He throws the gift on my lap and walks away, did I work for that gift? NO, I did not. This is the same as accepting Jesus for salvation. I cannot accept Jesus unless I believe He has that gift, I have to open myself to accept that gift. Once I have opened my heart by accepting His gift, then I love Him for what He has done for me and I then seek repentance for His free gift.

My opponent seems to suggest that either we can come in and out of salvation many times in life or that once we lose salvation it is lost forever. She suggest my interpretation is has many miracles but this here either suggests many miracles for one to come in and out of salvation or to permanently deny salvation altogether if we may stumble. I am just saying they were never saved to begin with or can not lose it.

Let's notice my opponent used work based salvation from Judaism in the O.T. to make her example of God's people forgetting Him. This is a grave error on her part. By doing this she is returning back to the same work based doctrine she has displayed in her passages as those who have fallen from grace. The N.T. is grace and faith based by the blood of Christ. Not one verse in the N.T. talks about the saved forsaking God or salvation nor God forsaking them. Matter of fact the only one forsaken in the N.T. is Jesus.

Matthew 27:46, "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice....My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

I maintain one who has received salvation cannot forget God nor God forget them. How can one forget their own salvation and the God who supplied it? Not unless salvation was not given to begin with.

Hebrews 13:5, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."

2 Corinthians 4:9, "Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed."

My opponent says that none of these passages talk of eternal salvation, (John 10:25-29;1 John 2:19-25; Rom. 8:33-39). Let's look and cut it down.

John 10, "Jesus answered.. I told you.. ye believed not:because ye are not of my sheep..My sheep hear my voice..and they follow me: And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish."

1 John 2,"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us...Let that abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning...he hath promised us, even eternal life."

Romans 8,"Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth..Christ died..is risen..at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us..Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? For..Nay..any shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Clearly these speak of eternal salvation and that only those who received salvation stays with God to the end or in the end. There are many of these verses but I chose these. Notice not one passage by my opponent in the N.T. ever specifically says that the saved lose salvation but over and over it says salvation promises eternity.

My opponent then makes a outlandish claim that I think our salvation equals eternal life on earth or we have eternal bodies now. We who have salvation do have eternal life but not in this world or body. It is still a hope because we have not entered into eternity yet or do we have our glorified bodies yet.

Gal. 5 is that we should stand with Jesus because in Him we are free. We should not look to entangle ourselves with works of the Law nor with the world. If we seek the Law for salvation then Christ is meaningless to us. That we find righteousness by faith in Christ.

My opponent seems to think the Bible was written solely for the saved, when she says that, Ye means just us. 'Ye' means a plural form of you, meaning 'you all.' I conclude that means both the saved and the lost.

(1. Becoming entangled again with the yoke of bondage) Christ has set everyone free by His grace. If we seek again salvation by works, we reject it.

(2. Synonymous with a return to Judaism) As above, we need not Judaism and its rules but just faith in Christ.

(3. Synonymous with a denial that Jesus is the Son of God) To look at bondage, you deny Jesus died for you and set you free.

(4. Synonymous with a believer becoming an unbeliever) A believer is not just the saved or faithful. Even the devil knows and believes but rejects.

I hope my opponent in her last round stops bringing up the O.T. as it pertaining to salvation by grace and faith through Christ. Christ came and died us all for a reason. We are not bound by the works and deeds in the O.T.

My opponent skipped alot of my points. I covered my opponents arguments that pertained to the affrimative resolution that I made. I hope you all enjoyed it as I did.
annanicole

Con

My opponent says, "My opponent used work based salvation from Judaism in the O.T. to make her example of God's people forgetting Him. This is a grave error on her part.”

I used God’s physical punishment of national Israel in the OT as a type of figure of salvation by faith in the New, and I shall continue to do so. And here’s why:

“… did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses? And with whom was he displeased forty years? Was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. (Heb 3: 16-19)

The apostle Paul repeatedly uses the same example, and applies it very poignantly to
Christianity. I want this point well understood:

Those Israelites were God’s people in Egypt, just as the church is God’s people
today. They were led out of Egypt by Moses, a type or figure of Christ, and on their way to the promised land, Canaan. What happened? They fell. They disbelieved and disobeyed. And? God kept them out of the promised land – and get the point right here:

Just as it was a physical affair with Israel, so it is spiritually with us under the New Covenant. Over and over, that is used as an example. They fell. They never reached the promised land. With eternity in view, please do not miss that point. Paul didn’t miss it.

Notice Heb 4: 11, “Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.”

What example? The one just given up there in Heb 3. They fell into disbelief and never reached the promised land. My opponent can see that. What does my opponent say? “Grave error” on my part. “Can’t happen.” Well, it just seems to me that it did happen. And again:

... because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Rom
11: 20-22)

What does my opponent say? Well, for one thing, he doesn’t like the “if thou continue in His goodness” part, and says I’m misapplying it. Again I don’t think so. Let the reader judge. And again:

“Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.” (I Cor 10: 11)

Now if someone can’t see the example and apply it, then I confess that I do not know what else to say. These things happened unto them for examples.

***

On Gal 5, he says,
My opponent seems to think the Bible was written solely for the saved, when she says that, Ye means just us. 'Ye' means a plural form of you, meaning 'you all.' I conclude that means both the saved and the lost.”

Let’s get this. He looks at these passages specifically -

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage,” then “Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.”

and concludes that the “us” and “ye” refers to both Christians and non-Christians. I would hardly think that the lost have the “liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free”. Nor are the lost encouraged to “stand fast” in their “lostness.” Why, the entire book of Galatians was written to the saved. See Gal 1: 1, 2:

“Paul, an apostle - sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead - and all the brothers with me, to the churches in Galatia”

The “churches of Galatia” are not “both the saved and the lost”, and the admonition to “stand
fast” at 5: 1 is not advice to the lost – and the passage was not written to the lost. Lost Jews could not “become entangled again” in the “yoke of bondage” – they never left the yoke. In fact, the only folks who could “become entangled again” in Judaism would be Jews who had renounced Judaism and embraced Christianity, so that solves that problem. The passage is written to saved people, and not only that, it is particularly written to Jewish Christians who faced a particular temptation.

***

His example of conversion:
“If I sit on my couch .. my friend (Christ) comes over and says to me, "I have a gift for you. Do you want it?" I ask, what do I have to do for it? He says, "Just accept it." He throws the gift on my lap and walks away, did I work for that gift? NO, I did not.”

You think Jesus Christ just throws salvation at you – and you basically get hit with it in the lap? Looks to me like you didn’t “accept” it. You simply didn’t dodge it. Notice that in your struggle to keep from doing anything, you become too lazy to even hold your hand out. You just sit there – can’t even nod your head – and smack! Salvation lands right in your lap. Not a passage in the entire Bibles teaches such a doctrine. But had you been standing there with Peter on Pentecost in Acts 2 when those old Jews were cut to the heart and cried out, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”, you could have said, “Nothing.” But Peter didn’t
say that. And every case of conversion in the book of Acts is the same. Circumstances may differ, but every case is the same.

***

And further, “Once I have opened my heart by accepting His gift, then I love Him for what He has done for me and I then seek repentance for His free gift.”

Notice your order:

1. You must believe that Jesus has that gift.

2. “Open yourself”. Accept that gift.

3. Saved

4. Love Jesus Christ

5. Repent because you were already saved

That’s your order? I guess it is.

Believing that Jesus has that gift” would include believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. You would necessarily have to believe He is Who He claims to be. Thus, you would believe in the virgin birth, the sinless life, the cross of Calvary, the resurrection, and the ascension to the right hand of the Father. How’d you learn all that? Faith comes by hearing. You heard the gospel message, contemplated it, weighed the evidence, decided in favor of Jesus, believed that He is indeed the Son of God and all the other attendant facts, and believed that He has the gift of salvation. And get this: so far, according to you, you have “done nothing!” Not a thing. Then you also “opened yourself.” Whatever that is, you did it – and you also “accepted the gift.” And still – you haven’t done anything? Every time you talk about “receiving salvation”, you have conditions in front of it. Every time.


***

“My opponent is maintaining that we have to do works to receive salvation. Salvation is a gift.”


So is gonorrhea, but you can’t get that without some kind of effort on your part, either. Calling something a “gift” does not even imply that there are no prerequisites, no conditions, and no effort on the recipient’s part. Salvation is a gift in the sense that it is unearned, unmerited, and undeserved. And every time you start to explain it, you list off something we must do in order to be saved. Just this last time, you said we must believe in Jesus first and “open our hearts”, did you not? Thus, you have us “doing something” while you call it “doing nothing”. Therein lies the inconsistency.

Your theory is that if a person has to “do something” in order to receive salvation, then the person would have to “do something” to lose it. Likewise, if a person has to “do nothing” in order to receive it, then there is “nothing” a person could do to lose it. While I might not agree with the logic on that, I find it odd that you disprove your own theory: every time you talk about “getting saved”, you have the person doing something as a prerequisite. He must believe in Jesus Christ, must open his heart, must accept it. He has to do those things as prerequisites.


Thanks very much to my oppponent. I have enjoyed it, and I'll close - only a few characters remaining.









Debate Round No. 4
29 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by PGA 3 years ago
PGA
Hebrews 2:10-18

New International Version (NIV)

10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. 11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.[a] 12 He says,

"I will declare your name to my brothers and sisters;
in the assembly I will sing your praises."[b]

13 And again,

"I will put my trust in him."[c]

And again he says,

"Here am I, and the children God has given me."[d]

14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death"that is, the devil" 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham"s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[e] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Footnotes:

Hebrews 2:11 The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God"s family; also in verse 12; and in 3:1, 12; 10:19; 13:22.
Hebrews 2:12 Psalm 22:22
Hebrews 2:13 Isaiah 8:17
Hebrews 2:13 Isaiah 8:18
Hebrews 2:17 Or like his brothers

Who brings sons and daughters to glory (vs 10).
Who makes people holy (vs 11)
Who gives Him the children (vs 13)
By whose death is the power of sin and death broken - yours or His (vs 14)
Who helps free us from death and condemnation (vs 15 with Romans 8)
Who is able to help us when we are tempted (vs 18)

When you read the NT pay attention to the subject and object re
Posted by PGA 3 years ago
PGA
Jude 1:24

New International Version (NIV)
Doxology

24 To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy"

Again, He is able, not us.

Hebrews 7:25

New International Version (NIV)

25 Therefore he is able to save completely[a] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Footnotes:

Hebrews 7:25 Or forever

He is able to save completely, forever, those who come to God because He ALWAYS LIVES TO INTERCEDE FOR THEM. Either that ONE sacrifice saved us or we are still dead in our sins, because He only made the one sacrifice for sins.

Ephesians 3:20

New International Version (NIV)

20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us,

He is able to do more than we could ever ask or imagine because it is His power at work in us, not our own. If Jesus has saved you you are saved because it is not your work but His work in us.

Ephesians 2:10

New International Version (NIV)

10 For we are God"s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

He set us free from sin and death to do good works that He, not us, prepared in advance for us to do.

I will continue with this in another post since I will not be able to fit the next section in.

Peter
Posted by PGA 3 years ago
PGA
If you look up the `He is able`quotes alone in the NT I believe you will discover who is the subject and object of salvation, who saves and who receives the salvation. Ephesians 2:1-10 makes it clear that a dead man cannot save himself, and without Christ that is all any of us are - dead men. A dead man can do nothing. He is not able to lift a finger to save himself. If we are are children of Adam then we have Adam`s sinful nature and are hostile to God. It requires an act of regeneration, of being born again, made a new creation to either see the kingdom of enter it, according to John 3. That is why you can talk to someone until you are blue in the face and they are incapable of hearing the word of life. Unless the Holy Spirit is at work in the person your words are futile. But I believe that faith still comes from hearing the message, the gift of God`s grace to those who will believe.

Ephesians 2:1-9

New International Version (NIV)
Made Alive in Christ

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions"it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith"and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Posted by PGA 3 years ago
PGA
Just as in the first century I still believe that it requires an act of God to draw us to Him.

John 6:35-45

New International Version (NIV)

35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father"s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, "I came down from heaven"?"

43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: "They will all be taught by God."[a] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Footnotes:

John 6:45 Isaiah 54:13

Some people hear and believe, yet others hear but really never hear at all. You can talk to them until you are blue in the face. Verse 37 says all that the Father gives - that He gives - will come to Jesus. Verse 44 says that no one can come unless the Father draws them to Christ, but to all those who do come, Christ will - yes, He WILL - raise them up on the last day. That happened on the last day, I believe, and it continues to happen.

Peter
Posted by PGA 3 years ago
PGA
I think that Annanicole is missing the point of who is sovereign and who does the act of saving and who receives this act/sacrifice by faith. Does God alone save, or does it in fact require some work of of ours in conjunction with His sacrifice?

Is God capable of saving anyone, or once a person comes to faith in Christ Jesus and truly believes/is saved finds that God cannot keep them safe because it is outside His power to do so - He is not sovereign - His creature can defeat His purpose?

Did the Lord Jesus Christ come just to make salvation possible or did He come to actually save a people for Himself? If He came just to make salvation possible, then His atoning sacrifice actually saves no one because it requires more than just His act alone.

Hebrews 10:14

New International Version (NIV)

14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

I ask you, has He made perfect forever or has He not?

Matthew 1:21-23

New International Version (NIV)

21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[a] because he will save his people from their sins."

22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"[b] (which means "God with us").
Footnotes:

Matthew 1:21 Jesus is the Greek form of Joshua, which means the Lord saves.
Matthew 1:23 Isaiah 7:14

Did Jesus save a people for Himself as Matthew said He would or did He just make salvation possible. Was anyone really saved with the atoning work of the cross? Joshua, translated means 'the Lord saves.' Does God save with His work on the cross, the life work Jesus lived in place of those who would believe, or does it require His work plus our work? Is Jesus able to save completely those who come to Him? Even in Isaiah, the OT we see it is God alone who saves.

Peter
Posted by THE_OPINIONATOR 3 years ago
THE_OPINIONATOR
Quite frankly it depends on what denomination you are in or what the specific person believes.
Posted by Smithereens 4 years ago
Smithereens
these types of resolutions always mess with my head, yes a christian can't loose salvation? Or No, a christian can loose salvation? Contain double negatives. I think I understand why you did it this way in order for Helix to be the instigator, but I, and maybe a few others, got a little confused. :P
Posted by annanicole 4 years ago
annanicole
I think I'll pass, babygirl.
Posted by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Oh, I missed the best one:

You think Jesus Christ just throws salvation at you " and you basically get hit with it in the lap? Looks to me like you didn"t "accept" it. You simply didn"t dodge it. Notice that in your struggle to keep from doing anything, you become too lazy to even hold your hand out. You just sit there " can"t even nod your head " and smack! Salvation lands right in your lap. Not a passage in the entire Bibles teaches such a doctrine. But had you been standing there with Peter on Pentecost in Acts 2 when those old Jews were cut to the heart and cried out, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?", you could have said, "Nothing." But Peter didn"t say that.
Posted by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
There are some great quotes in this debate.

Nor are the lost encouraged to "stand fast" in their "lostness."

What does my opponent say? "Grave error" on my part. "Can"t happen." Well, it just seems to me that it did happen.

And next he"ll be telling us that although we "must do" it, and we do it, and we did it, we really didn"t do it, so what we did (but really didn"t do) doesn"t count as a work.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by philochristos 4 years ago
philochristos
Double_Helix46annanicoleTied
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Total points awarded:14 
Reasons for voting decision: Con was a little more snarky than Pro, so conduct to Pro. They both had S/G mistakes (usually punctuation in Con's case), but Pro's mistake were more numerous. Each failed to grapple with many of the other's scripture references, but Con dealt with more of Pro's than Pro dealt with Con's, so arguments to Con.
Vote Placed by Smithereens 4 years ago
Smithereens
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Reasons for voting decision: mercy point for Pro, so he doesn't get depressed and suicide, but negated by a point to Con. Consider my vote null.
Vote Placed by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
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Reasons for voting decision: Clearly a decisive win for Con. Not even a contest, really. Con's examples showing that people were being warned to not fall implies that falling is both possible and undesirable, which it would not be if salvation could not be lost. I feel Con clearly demonstrated that salvation is a promise and conditional, and Pro failed to successfully refute that.
Vote Placed by Jacob_Apologist 4 years ago
Jacob_Apologist
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro gave poor calvinistic arguments. For example Hebrews 13:5, "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee."- thats words of God; and he is not a Christian, who may lose faith lol so many arguments mostly were irrelevant; for exmple "salvation is by grace". Anna gave relevant good evidence that how believer can fall into unbelief; that we must be faithful until death to get the crown. etc. She wins.