The Instigator
Lookingatissues
Pro (for)
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The Contender
Thefightforfreedom
Con (against)
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A Society in which nothing is secure

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/10/2015 Category: Society
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 492 times Debate No: 77533
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
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Lookingatissues

Pro

The Citizens of America today are in a state of unsettled fluctuation where it seems, nothing from day to day remains the same and there are no longer solid understood permanent established guides to live their lives by. Isn't this unsettled condition of present- day life a policy for the dissolution of a nation.
Russell Kirk in his book,"The CONSERVATIVE MIND" wrote this about about America's people and the unsettle conditions in which they are living today, "Our great danger lies in the radical tendency which has become so wide, deep, and active in the American people. Ceasing to regard anything as sacred or venerable, spurning what is old, injuring what is fixed, setting adrift all religious, domestic, and social institutions, we borrow nothing from the past and ignore the data of experience. We even try to deny that language has exact meaning. " A nation can not survive without an established order allowing people to live in harmony with each other as a civil society, America 's unsettled state of affairs can not continue without the dissolution of this nation and a nation ripe for a tyrant to rule over them.
Thefightforfreedom

Con

I greatly appreciate being able to accept this debate. With that said, my opponent takes a quote from a book called "THE COSERVATIVE MIND". The quote he refers to leads me to believe that (as well as the last part of his argument) he is worried that tyrants may soon take over. I would like to debate that they already have and for a very long time.
First we should look at how this country is run now. Huge amounts of debt, a tax code over 73,000 pages long, a book on the laws that rivals the tax code book where the average person commits about 3 felonies per day, the list could go on and on. Now in order to understand how we got here, I think my opponent would like us to go back to the constitution. However I proclaim that the constitution has never had any authority at all, except for those who signed it. I also proclaim that the u.s. government has put the people who live here in more turmoil and it is not the "radical tendency which has become so wide, deep, and active in the american people.".
In today's day and age, the "founding fathers" would be considered radical extremists. They went to war over 2% taxation while we accept 30 to 40% without blinking an eye. The mere thought of an income tax during those times would be considered treason! Handing the "power" to print money over to a private bank, waging wars without the approval of congress, etc would all be considered tyrannical by no stretch of the imagination. Today people are conditioned NOT to see these things as tyrannical.
What do the american people do? We work, play, enjoy company of others, have dinner with our kids, and for the most part, voluntarily interact with people in a peaceful manner not because a government tells us to do so, but because this is universally preferable behavior (upb for short). I don't want to be killed therefore I wont kill. I don't want to be stolen from therefore I wont steal. Of course we have people with some screws loose however, in any social environment we would as well.
I am taking the argument that we cant go back to the constitution because it failed to keep the u.s. government small enough to manage and cannot, by law and reason, ever do what it was created to do. I will wait to hear if my opponent disagrees, and believes that we need to go back to the constitution. From there we can have a debate!
Debate Round No. 1
Lookingatissues

Pro

Lookingattheissues response in debate titled A Society in which nothing is secure
Plato once said,"The object of knowledge is what exists and its function to know about reality. It would seem apparent that when a society and its leaders lose their ability to discern reality from illusions that as the title of this debate, "A Society in which nothing is secure," notes, that society is primed for dissolution and it is only a matter of time before a tyrant is set over the people who determines the people's reality for them.The people's problem once a tyrant rules over them To paraphrase Plato's Quote The people will then ,under a tyrant , ....have "Knowledge"...of....what "exists" but will be powerless to change that ..... reality..." Obama and the leftist democrats have ignored reality as it presently exists, and of their making, and talk insistently about change, that change of which they are the author,has resulted in "A Society in which nothing is secure."
Thefightforfreedom

Con

Unfortunately I have not gotten a rebuttal on my argument. Therefore I won't continue this debate. My opponent has not even acknowledged me nor my arguments. So I will forfeit as this is not really a debate. Sorry for the confusion!
Debate Round No. 2
Lookingatissues

Pro

Lookingattheissues response to CON's last post
I'm sorry that I haven't responded sooner with my rebuttal but I will dissect your response point by point and hope thatIi will be persuasive and informative enough to perhaps convert you over to my point of view in the end. I appreciate the fact that you went to the effort to enter this debate with me and it wasn't out of disregard for you or your point of view that i haven't replied ,it was just that I didn't have the time to reply, I will try to do better, thanks again for entering the debate with me.
Thefightforfreedom

Con

It is no problem at all!
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Lookingatissues 1 year ago
Lookingatissues
Part number two of response by Lookingattheissues to Thefightforfreedom

".....to preserve herself from all injuries....and this right is a perfect one since it is a given to satisfy a natural and indispensable obligation: for when we cannot use constraint in order to cause our rights to be respected, their effects are very uncertain. It is a right to preserve herself from all injury that is called the right to security."
You wrote about "using "voluntarism..." For a nation to use ""voluntarism..., "To aid others is noble in the offer, but ""voluntarism..." has to serve the interests of America and not assist those who are enemies of this country, doing so beliving that we can win over America's enemies by improving their lives, instead in a lot of cases all that America gets for its efforts and good intentions is hatred and a enemy that is stronger and more aggressive towards us, laughing at our continued display of gullibility. The lessen we should have learned long ago, but haven't obviously, is that you can't buy friends.
Posted by Lookingatissues 1 year ago
Lookingatissues
Part number two of response by Lookingattheissues to Thefightforfreedom

".....to preserve herself from all injuries....and this right is a perfect one since it is a given to satisfy a natural and indispensable obligation: for when we cannot use constraint in order to cause our rights to be respected, their effects are very uncertain. It is a right to preserve herself from all injury that is called the right to security."
You wrote about "using "voluntarism..." For a nation to use ""voluntarism..., "To aid others is noble in the offer, but ""voluntarism..." has to serve the interests of America and not assist those who are enemies of this country, doing so beliving that we can win over America's enemies by improving their lives, instead in a lot of cases all that America gets for its efforts and good intentions is hatred and a enemy that is stronger and more aggressive towards us, laughing at our continued display of gullibility. The lessen we should have learned long ago, but haven't obviously, is that you can't buy friends.
Posted by Lookingatissues 1 year ago
Lookingatissues
Reply by Lookingattheissues
I would be glad to offer up my thoughts on this debate , thanks for the opportunity , I'm interested in your thoughts. as well.
You posted,"My position is that voting for "leaders" can't work....Until we decide to live using the non aggression principal, as well as use voluntarism......."
To respond to the first part of your post about the ability of the citizens to vote "for leaders that will work ,"The citizens can't elect effective leaders until they can determine the difference between a person who is technically qualified to run for office from a leader who truly has the interests of the nation and its people instead of party or his own personal agendas and welfare.
The choice of those who would be the future citizens leaders are readily available to select from but the citizens to get leaders of character and moral principles must be more involved than looking at voting for their leaders as more than a function and a duty that citizens do every so often but a responsibility to cast a ballot only after being properly informed about the leader they're voting, not just rely on what the party or the media puts out before the public.

You wrote,"voting for "leaders" can't work. Until we decide to live using the.... (non aggression principal, as well as use {voluntarism}......") America and its people are the most non-aggressive people on this earth and only go to war when the nation and its people are threatened.
Emmerich de vatel opined, " Self defense is a natural right." "Every nation as well as every man, has, therefore, a right to prevent other nations from obstructing her preservation, her perfection, and happyness that is, to Part two to be added below in Comments.
Posted by Thefightforfreedom 1 year ago
Thefightforfreedom
I would like to take you on your debate. My position is that voting for "leaders" can't work. Until we decide to live using the non aggression principal, as well as use voluntarism in our everyday lives we will never be secure. Let me know if your interested.
Posted by kkal 1 year ago
kkal
This nation is full of spoiled young people who are endlessly distracted by new toys to play with. These youngsters were raised by a generation of parents who fought to legitimize every dissent and were taught by a generation of educators who minimized the lessons of history. The young people of today have taken the concept of "herd mentality" to new heights. Independent thinking has been replaced by a robotic mindset being taken advantage of by every corporate pirate sailing our economic ocean. Tradition, history, precedent have lost all meaning and relevance. Political correctness has replaced even common sense. Society is divorced from responsibility. Government has been bought and sold, yet our young lemmings participate at the lowest rate of any generation before them. The seed has been sown, the weed is growing and there will be a bitter harvest. Almost five generations ago President Eisenhower warned of the "military industrial complex" and the consequences of ignoring history. This was at a time when citizen participation in the political system was considered by many to be a duty. Today our system has hit a new low. Polls have replaced serious inquiry, news information is muddled by corporate sponsorship and money sways even the most sincere voter. The supreme court has no fear of openly ruling with a political bias and we even celebrate and joke about the 16 % approval of our government. Those who ignore history are "destined to repeat it" is an oft used phrase but seldom taken seriously. Welcome to the 21st century Roman Empire!!
Posted by mentalist 1 year ago
mentalist
This assertion does not take into account that the U.S is run by a corporatocracy. Individual rights are under attack and independent thought has been hacked by propaganda and intimidation. The public has been dumbed down and the average person is basically a wage slave. The events in Greece should illustrate to people that the current monetary based dynamic eliminates people's access to resources and makes them consumers or cogs in the system. Paper money that is really debt provides a false sense of wealth. Most people are programmed or indoctrinated through mis-education to trust in a system that is rife with inequality, discrimination and oppression.
Posted by Mike_10-4 1 year ago
Mike_10-4
Thank you for those kind words.

You referenced a number of sources struggling with our dilemma. Perhaps, it is an incomplete understanding of life's Unalienable Rights, a manifestation of the physical Constructal Law.

Life's Unalienable Rights is a bio-program. As life navigates through nature, there is a tendency during the struggle for survival to support, prolong, and improve "Life." At the same time, there is an inherent drive to increase "Liberty" while continuing to reduce the amount of energy expended during "the pursuit "of an objective; hence, "Happiness."

Freedom ("Liberty") in modern civil societies is mostly a function of money. The more money you have, the more you can do and buy things; hence, "greed" or love of power.

As for the energy in "the pursuit," there is a natural tendency to do more for less work or no work at all.

Those who seek political power often exploit those natural biases.

Those natural biases, for many, constitute an uncontrollable, self-centered physiological and psychological drive to improve one's "Life," increase "Liberty," and reduce the energy in "the pursuit of Happiness." This natural drive is often complicated by economic and moral illiteracy, as free handouts by the institution of government can only be a good thing from such a perspective; hence, "bread and circuses."

In the evolution of understanding the machinery of these Unalienable Rights we need to come to realize for a civil society to work we must learn to modify this bio-program to the following: "Life, Liberty, and the moral pursuit of Happiness."

Morality is the key!

John Adams, one of the Founding Fathers of the United States, once said:

"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Today, we are in a post constitutional era.
Posted by Lookingatissues 1 year ago
Lookingatissues
lookingattheissues reply to ChickenBakuba's question, "...sooo, what are you Debating? That Obama is a tyrant?..." Thanks for the question that you asked.
In the title to my subject," ...A Society in which nothing is secure," one question in this debate is what has brought about this "state of unsettled fluctuation," in America.
Could America's ".....state of unsettled fluctuation," Be the results of America's inability to make sound judgements in choosing their leaders basing their choice for leaders on such things as their prejudices,Politics, political correctness,and such discernment's as " The first minority, the first woman, as their qualifications to be our leaders.
Another question that might be a part of this debate , is America insecure because of the nations people being too immature to tackle such an important question or even to dwell on the issue very long when such trivial issues as "Should the Confederate flag be flown in public places" has drawn all of the citizens attention, a more important question that should be asked, is why America tolerates people like singer and actor Ariana Grande who owes her personal success to this country and its citizens....." Ariana Grande hates America and licks doughnuts..."singer and actor Ariana Grande saying she hates Americans and America. At a South Carolina donuts shop, Grande was seen licking and spitting on donuts," CATCH NEWS
The debate , Is America a society in which nothing is secure , is this the results of America's citizens immature judgement on who they choose to be their leaders,or are American's not interested anymore in what their government does and no longer care as long as they can get their marijuana and Tom can marry Harry or Mary marry Jane America's citizens might be saying, what Mad Comics stated, "What, me worry" "Alfred E. Neuman is the fictitious mascot and cover boy of Mad magazine."
Posted by Lookingatissues 1 year ago
Lookingatissues
Posted by Mike_10-4 14 minutes ago
Mike_10-4
Thank you for a most interesting post that you sent.
I believe that the problem America is facing today is the present attitude of entitlement, every body thinks that they're owed things, without any obligation on their part to contribute back to society.
In a book by Robert H. Bork,"SLOUCHING TOWARDS GOMORRAH," Robert Bork writes about The idea that we have become a nation in which people believe that thy are victims, We have become what Charles J. Sykes called " A nation of victims."This compassion born of the passion for equality leads to the power of claiming victim status." The list of victims groups-Minorities, Women,Homosexuals, The disabled, the Obese, The young, The old, is virtually endless."
Then John Stuart Mills in one of his Essays," Points to a radical disjunction between the individual and society-indeed, an adversarial relationship." Else where John Stuart Mills wrote in " On Liberty-1859," about what he considered essential for the " Stability of a society," It is essential to the stability of society that some fundamental principles of the system of social union be held sacred and above discussion." In the end, if America is failing its because Americans didn't care enough to be responsible for their own and their families, to raise their children to be good citizens and to show appreciation for what they had received then to contribute back to a society that provided so much to their welfare instead of claiming that they were Victims and were owed from society.
Posted by Mike_10-4 1 year ago
Mike_10-4
We need to get back to our founding principles. "The Science of Rights."
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