The Instigator
TheConservative
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
Yraelz
Con (against)
Winning
18 Points

A True Christian has and holds onto morals far more than an atheist has or does.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/22/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,186 times Debate No: 3336
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (5)
Votes (7)

 

TheConservative

Pro

Yraelz I have returned, "JLconservative" I decided to make a fresh account.

Now down to buisness again I will allow you to make an oppening argument.
Yraelz

Con

Welcome back!

I would like to thank my opponent for extending this challenge to me, I'm always happy to debate a conservative who actually seems to enjoy debating me as opposed to loathing my guts throughout the entire debate.

Onto my arguments! I will debating this on two levels for fun. Not only will I debate that an atheist holds onto his/her morals better but also that an atheist will generally have better morals.

1. An atheist at the very least holds onto his/her morals no less than that of a religious person. This is rather simple. Christianity, specifically the bible, is very open to interpretation. For example:

http://www.religioustolerance.org......

here is a source that show about 30% of Christians believe in a literal Satan being while 62% believe in Satan simply being a symbolic evil.

Another example is the fact that a fair number liberal christians believe homosexuality is okay.

This of course has no application to our current debate, it simply shows that the bible is very much open to interpretation. This allows christians to interpret it how they desire. Furthermore there are many branches of christianity, these only further the power of the christrian to pick a branch thereby possibly changing some part of their moral code.

For instance a christian might have the moral that "the death penalty is ok" until the point where they see a person unjustly put to death. At which point they may adopt a more literal representation of the bible and say that killing is flat wrong. This of course is the same freedom an atheist has in the sense that an atheist can change their morals if they feel one has become outdated or is simply wrong.

2. Christians actually hold onto morals less. This point stems from children becoming atheistic. Many children who start out christian do so simply because their parents tell them that is what is right. The children themselves may not actually believe in the christian doctrines or even god him/herself. This at some point occasionally lead to them abandoning their faith, and moral code, to find a moral code that better suits them. This is an example of christians not holding onto their morals.

3. Christians actually hold onto morals less (2). Christianity makes it more difficult for an individual to choose a moral code that they feel is right. While Christianity does offer the opening for interpretation it only offers it to some limits. For instance the belief in homosexuality being fine is blatantly discouraged by the bible where as an atheist, if they feel homosexuality is fine, has nothing discouraging himself/herself from that idea. This of course at times forces christians to follow morals that they don't necessarily feel are right. Which in turn leads to them at some point or another either abandoning their faith or simply changing that moral.

4. Atheists on the other hand are more likely to hold onto theirs. Why? Because the atheist actually developed his/her own morals. Going against christian morals is to go against something that someone does not believe in, while going against atheistic morals is to against oneself. The idea of giving up atheistic morals is completely and utterly self defeating. Its like building your own bridge and then knocking that bridge over. Meanwhile going against christian morals is like looking at a bridge that you don't think will hold up then knocking it over and creating your own bridge.

5. Atheistic morals are actually better than that of christians on two levels.

a. Many christians simply feel that they should follow the christian morals because this is what god teaches. This means that the christians often times don't follow their morals for any other reason than a blind faith. Which means the morals don't actually belong to these people but rather their god. (DISCLAIMER!: This is not a rule, I have met many christians who knew exactly why they followed the morals they did and had a very sound moral code. I however have also met the other kind.)

b. The christian morals offer less wiggle room for a moral code than that of an atheist. Christian morals, as shown by my opponents debate topic, are actually encouraged to remain the same all throughout a christians life. This does not allow for much growth as a person. An atheist on the other hand examines situations and critically examines his/her morals to decide if they are correct. This process of critical examination leads to well thought out and meaningful morals. (DISCLAIMER: This is obviously not only true, some atheists are idiots. However in general I feel an atheist, having a greater ability to do so, does this critical examination more often. )

Well thats about all I have for now JL. Though I have a question for you: What do you believe Satan is?
Debate Round No. 1
TheConservative

Pro

Yraez thank you my friend it's always nice to have a debate.

Ok let's look at your claims real quick,

"An atheist at the very least holds onto his/her morals no less than that of a religious person. This is rather simple. Christianity, specifically the bible, is very open to interpretation."

- Yes that is true the bible dose have room for interpretation however the ten commandments are very clear and it is very clear in the bible that those who live a life of sin will be punished in the end. Not matter how you "interpret" the basics of the bible are still there. In any case I would rather take any interpretation of the bible (a book that teaches us morals and love) rather than a atheist bound by no laws other than what is convenient with him/her.

"Another example is the fact that a fair number liberal Christians believe homosexuality is okay."

- False, a true Christian one that studies the bible and knows the laws laid down by God all know that homosexuality is a sin.

Leviticus 20:13 – "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

I would like to see a "Christian" interpret there way out of those versus.
Now I would like to point out a homosexual may make it to the kingdom of heaven on jugement day if they repent and step away from such lifestyles.

"Christians actually hold onto morals less. This point stems from children becoming atheistic. Many children who start out christian do so simply because their parents tell them that is what is right. The children themselves may not actually believe in the christian doctrines or even god him/herself. This at some point occasionally lead to them abandoning their faith, and moral code, to find a moral code that better suits them. This is an example of christians not holding onto their morals."

- First of all this is mostly opinion not facts or statistics at all. Secondly I would like my opponent to explain to me how a child who grows up in a Christian home, whose parents try and bring their child up with the biblical moral code (ten commandments) a code that exists in our society as the laws of the land could possible be "less" moral than a child brought up in a Homosexual/Atheist home where morals are your own ideas and your own judgments. What kind of offspring would that yield?

"Christianity makes it more difficult for an individual to choose a moral code that they feel is right. While Christianity does offer the opening for interpretation it only offers it to some limits. For instance the belief in homosexuality being fine is blatantly discouraged by the bible where as an atheist, if they feel homosexuality is fine, has nothing discouraging himself/herself from that idea. This of course at times forces christians to follow morals that they don't necessarily feel are right. Which in turn leads to them at some point or another either abandoning their faith or simply changing that moral."

- Christianity gives you guidelines to live by and I think that everyone reading this will say that the basic moral codes that the bible gives us such as:

Do not murder,do not steal, do not commit adultery, honor your mother and father, do not lie...are all pretty good human morals to live by. I think the bible teaches us that homosexuality is wrong because it goes against everything that is human...How does homosexuality fit into survival of the fittest? or the evolutionary chain? answer me this: what good has homosexuality done in our society besides allow deviants to openly be deviants?...ok I don't want to get into a homosexual debate.

"Many christians simply feel that they should follow the christian morals because this is what god teaches. This means that the christians often times don't follow their morals for any other reason than a blind faith. Which means the morals don't actually belong to these people but rather their god. (DISCLAIMER!: This is not a rule, I have met many christians who knew exactly why they followed the morals they did and had a very sound moral code. I however have also met the other kind.)"

- Your problem is that your so naive about Christianity, you say yourself you have meet Christians who knew exactly why the have a very sound moral code. It all goes down to reading and studying the bible. A Christian that follows moral codes blindly is one that does not read the bible. I for one adopted Christianity because my morals reflected the religion.

"The christian morals offer less wiggle room for a moral code than that of an atheist."

- Yes, I agree I don't want anyone to have wiggle room with, murder or theft or rape.

"Christian morals, as shown by my opponents debate topic, are actually encouraged to remain the same all throughout a christians life. This does not allow for much growth as a person."

- Again your very naive when it comes to Christianity I am afraid. It's about a spiritual growth with God, not a personal growth. It's about walking with Christ instead of the world.

"An atheist on the other hand examines situations and critically examines his/her morals to decide if they are correct. This process of critical examination leads to well thought out and meaningful morals."

- So from this ideology cheat,lie,kill,steal as long as you yourself feel they are correct?

Christianity, is a religion based and founded on morals. On right actions and love. Atheism is chaotic, selfish, and scary belief system. Lets take a look at a few things here.

To answer your question, Satan is a.k.a. as The Devil, Beelzebub, Lucifer, Mephistopheles, Prince of Darkness, Accursed Dragon, Foul Spirit, Satanic Power, Master of Deceit, etc.)Satan is a profoundly evil, fallen angel who is totally dedicated to the destruction of everyone's lives. He is a supernatural being who "walketh about, seeking whom he may devour," and is aided by countless demons. He and his demons are all pervasive. They engage in world-wide "spiritual warfare," and are a continual threat to all. They can dwell within people, as in demon possession. This is my belief alone every Christian can make their own decisions on what Satan is, as for me I take the bible literally.

Columbine High School what dose that make you think about? I have studied the Columbine shootings allot, I read Eric Harris's journal and thought process. Eric believed that he was doing society a favor by eliminating some members because of their inability in his view to be capable humans in the "Survival of the Fittest" doctrine. Eric Harris wore a white tee-shirt with the words "Natural Selection" written on it. While he and a friend brutally shot and killed over 10 students in their high school. This is a perfect example of what an Atheist can become who dose not live by any moral code except what he/she believes is right.
Yraelz

Con

Alright, I will be reintroducing each and every one of my point and then countering what my opponent said about each of them.

1. Christians can interrupt the bible in various ways, thus they have the ability to hold onto morals just as little as atheists. I supported this with the idea that many Christians do not find homosexuality wrong. My opponent countered by stating Leviticus does not allow for homosexuality.

Leviticus. The book that bans rabbits, pigs, and shellfish from being eaten. The book that states a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and 66 after that of a girl. The book which demands animal sacrifice. The book that bans wearing "a garment made from two kinds of material mixed together". The book which dictates "you shall not round off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." The book which dictates that a woman is unclean during her period and should be cut off from the outside world!

This book not only is generally not accepted by Christians but the vast majority don't even know of its teachings. I beg my opponent to seriously tell me, in honesty, that he has never eaten rabbits, pigs, or any type of shellfish. That he has never warn a garment made of two types of materials. That he has never cut his beard.

IF we are to use the book Leviticus as the christian moral code THEN my opponent has already lost this case, as barely any christians follow it.

In conclusion of my point, my opponent has done little to nothing to attack the point that many christians do indeed interrupt the bible in many different ways. Christians will choose and pick the morals in the bible that are important to themselves while dropping the others.

2. Christians actually hold onto morals less. My proof being that christian children at times abandon their faith to for a more morally suitable code to themselves. My opponent ignores this instead presenting me with the idea of,

"Secondly I would like my opponent to explain to me how a child who grows up in a Christian home, whose parents try and bring their child up with the biblical moral code (ten commandments) a code that exists in our society as the laws of the land could possible be "less" moral than a child brought up in a Homosexual/Atheist home where morals are your own ideas and your own judgments."

First things first, homosexual lifestyle and christianity is not mutually exclusive. In fact I have met homosexuals who are also christians. Secondly my opponent implies that all atheists are also homosexuals, obviously not true. Third I contest that a child brought up with encouraged free thought will have better morals than that brought up with mandated thought. This being because the childs morals will actually be thought out by the child him/herself instead of dictated at the child, this stops the break down later in life when the child realizes the only reason he/she ever followed said morals was because thats what he/she was told to do. Furthermore my opponent states that the christian morals are already covered by the law, in which case christianity is useless as said morals are already taught under our judicial system. =)

3. Christians actually hold onto morals less (2). This being because an atheists moral code is actually chosen 100% to fit him or herself.

My opponent responds by stating that christians have good morals. I have two answers, first off christianity may have some good morals but it also has morals that people tend to disagree with. For instance the woman being unclean moral is mildly disagreed with in contemporary society. As is man being greater than woman in genesis. Secondly the fact that christians have good morals does not stop atheists from having the same morals or better morals. In fact I contest as I did in my last speech that christianity doesn't teach the reasons behind given morals as much as atheism does. For an example let me show the difference between my opponents morals and mine.

My opponent:

a. Do not murder.
b. Do not steal.
c. Do not commit adultery.
d. Honor your mother and father.
e. Do not lie.

Myself:

a. Do not murder unless in pure self defense. This draws a line between needless murders while effectively following the golden rule.
b. Do not steal unless dire need dictates, do no harm in the process. Give back which you have stolen.
c. Do not commit adultery, this would not only result in ruining a current relationship but leave no question in my mind that I was in a very shallow relationship. I think a better moral would be to only pursue people who I was already friends with, thereby preventing me from ever committing adultery.
d. Honor your mother and father if they in turn honor you. To honor someone who simply despises you is of little point.
e. Be truthful with yourself. A lie to others does not have to be a bad thing. It is how or for what purpose a lie is used.

Not only do these morals make more sense in common everyday application as they are not extremes but they also show a comprehension for why the moral stands. A man who holds the greatest morals but does not know why has no morals at all.

My opponent goes on to state that christians who have read the bible know why they hold their morals. To some extent I agree but this is only applicable to those who have read it. The others do not, the majority.

4. Atheists are better at holding onto morals. This because an atheist defines his own morals. To go against ones own morals is to go against oneself. My opponent makes no comment.

5. Atheistic morals are better than Christian morals. Two reasons:

a. Atheists actually know why they follow the morals they do. Some christians simply follow because of blind faith. I have already covered this in (3.).

b. Atheists have more room to make their morals, this allows for growth. The christian morals are supposed to stay the same throughout life. My opponent answers with,

"Again your very naive when it comes to Christianity I am afraid. It's about a spiritual growth with God, not a personal growth. It's about walking with Christ instead of the world."

So while this is true it is not my point at all. My point was that people do inevitably grow through human nature. People learn, people experience. Christianity doesn't allow those persons to adapt their morals or make them better. It keeps the same morals forever.

My opponent goes on to state,

"So from this ideology cheat,lie,kill,steal as long as you yourself feel they are correct?"

Which I must respond to by stating, "no." I personally feel the golden rule is a good one to live by. Some atheists feel it is okay to cheat, steal, and kill at the same time many christians feel it is okay to cheat, steal, and kill. I can't talk for those small subsets, I am speaking for atheists in general. Atheism promotes the ideas of logical and free thought with personal improvement in my opinion.

Finally my opponent talks about Columbine. Ignoring the lack of proof for Eric Harris being atheist let us compare the 13 people they killed with the people christians have killed. We have the crusades, we have the inquisition, we have christian men joining the KKK to eradicate the blacks. We even have the same thing happening to gays today. Hmmmm...

My opponents turn.
Debate Round No. 2
TheConservative

Pro

TheConservative forfeited this round.
Yraelz

Con

Your turn again. We'll now consider this to be a 4 round debate. Laa dee daa..... 100 characters is all I need.
Debate Round No. 3
TheConservative

Pro

TheConservative forfeited this round.
Yraelz

Con

And now I will count this as a 3 round debate for all purposes. Thus I would ask that the voters vote as if no rounds have been dropped, thank you.
Debate Round No. 4
TheConservative

Pro

TheConservative forfeited this round.
Yraelz

Con

My opponent has sadly decided to get rid of his debate.org account. Thus I have nothing to refute and I must ask that all my points are extended.
Debate Round No. 5
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by PastorJoshua 9 years ago
PastorJoshua
Of course true christians are more moral than a bunch of heathans, such as yourself. All you Homersexuals, Deviants, People who believe the earth is round, scientists, and people who believe in evolution are sadly, going to burn in hell. Glory to God! Praise the Sweet name of Jesus!
Posted by Yraelz 9 years ago
Yraelz
Its fine, haha =) Vote on my gravy debate if you get a chance. =)
Posted by TheConservative 9 years ago
TheConservative
Yraelz I am so sorry, I always miss my turns I will try and prevent that from happening again.
Posted by TheConservative 9 years ago
TheConservative
Well, send me a challenge same topic although I am sure Yraelz will do more than a good job in his rebutle.
Posted by zakkuchan 9 years ago
zakkuchan
(Re PRO Round 2): Man, I wish I were Yraelz in this debate right now. I'd love to respond to that.
7 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Vote Placed by jiffy 9 years ago
jiffy
TheConservativeYraelzTied
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Vote Placed by brian_eggleston 9 years ago
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TheConservativeYraelzTied
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TheConservativeYraelzTied
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Vote Placed by Yraelz 9 years ago
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