The Instigator
brant.merrell
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
Juris_Naturalis
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

A complete border wall along the U.S/Mexico border.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 9/30/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 592 times Debate No: 38326
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (9)
Votes (0)

 

brant.merrell

Con

First round, acceptance.

Based off a previous debate of the same title by my opposition.

http://www.debate.org...
Juris_Naturalis

Pro

I accept.
Debate Round No. 1
brant.merrell

Con

Undocumented immigrants can contribute to social security, but cannot legally drain anything back from it [1]; they bring much-needed laborers to a nation whose exports consistently struggle to keep up with imports; and their spending circulates M1 currency [2]; but media and politicians accuse them of draining at government budgets, job markets, and even of boosting crime [3] because Americans cannot own up to the mistakes of their own entitlement and debt culture.

The Border Fence will cost up to $40,000 per immigrant apprehended, and will only filter the harmless ones [4]. Needless to say, American irresponsibility and denial are getting increasingly expensive as politicians defend their seats with talk of tough anti-immigration measures that are destructive, expensive and inneffective.

1. http://t.co...
2. http://t.co...
3. http://t.co...
4. http://t.co...
Juris_Naturalis

Pro

While they may not be able to collect SS benefits, they can collect SSI benefits (Supplemental Social income)[1]. I can't speak much on the topic of M1 currency circulation, the accusations of the aliens draining government budgets and boosting crime are not based in myth. In 2013 alone, an estimated $650,000,000 will be given to illegal aliens in LA county[2]. Duplin County Sheriff Blake Wallace finds that there has been an increase in gang activity in his district for the past few years, and the majority of the perpetrators are illegal aliens[3]. You claim a fence will only filter harmless aliens. How do you know it will only stop "harmless" ones, as the phrase is never used in your {4} ?

1http://www.foxnews.com...
2.http://losangeles.cbslocal.com...
3.http://www.nccivitas.org...
Debate Round No. 2
brant.merrell

Con

Pro's second source estimates $1.6 billion in immigrant costs. This appears staggering until one considers LA County's operating budget of $23 billion [5]; placed in proper perspective, immigrants cost under 7% of the operating budget, despite consisting of 36% of the population [6]. The complaining LA officials are evidence of aforementioned [3] political bias against immigrants.

Social Security and SSI expenditures (2012) consisted of 22% and 1.5% of the national budget, respectively; SSI recipients are blind, disabled, or over 65, and not a waste of money - as opposed to the border fence plan.

My fourth source states that smugglers will use boats to bus through the Gulf of Mexico, reminds us that some of the 9/11 terrorists used the Canadian border to get in, and suggests that druglords can afford to do the same.

5. http://t.co...

6. http://t.co...
Juris_Naturalis

Pro

Well if you look at it like that, it might not seem so bad. But, let's just assume for the sake of this debate that the 9 closest counties to LA county spend an average of $1 billion in welfare to illegal aliens. If you were to take that money and save it, you'd have enough money to complete the border fence as outlined in my opponents {4} in about 5 years. And that's just from 10 counties in California. And my opponent has shown no evidence to prove that all the LA county officials are bias against immigrants.

Again, if you were to take the money being given to people who aren't supposed to be here(1.5% of 11.7 billion[4]=110,700,000 as of 2013) you could keep out an additional 3000 illegal aliens (I rounded up from 2,925)

Well, drug smugglers do have access to have access to other means of transportation that your average poverty stricken immigrant doesn't have, simply because the have the money. Even then, there are WAY less drug runners than there are "immigrants".

4.http://m.gpo.gov...
Debate Round No. 3
brant.merrell

Con

If you were to take away 7% of expenditures invested in 35% of a population by getting rid of that entire sample of the population, you lose 35% of the workforce. The LA officials cherrypicked their numbers to falsely demonstrate that the hispanic workforce was dragging the city down - is that not evidence of bias against immigrants?

There are far less drug runners than immigrants, and immigrants provide a workforce with economic benefts that Pro has neglected to address. We import more than we export, which basically means our wealth is leaking into other nations, and that will not end until we produce more at lower costs. By paying immigrants to perform this labor, we stand to reabsorb our purchasing power parity, especially if immigrants spend the money they make on American businesses.

Instead of doing that, Pro would have us invest $40,000 per immigrant to keep out the ones that don't trade guns or fire grenade launchers - which is what I meant by the "harmless ones" from [4].
Juris_Naturalis

Pro

Con has not provided even the most remote source to show that the entire illegal immigrant population works or that if they didn't have the welfare money, would stop working. Con has also provided no source as to show how the LA county officials cherry-picked their numbers.

Illegal inmates are not the only ones that can preform tedious, back-breaking agricultural jobs. You could get prison inmates to do the same labor and the same efficiency, only difference is, you hired an American citizen. Not an immigrant.

As I showed in my [3] not all illegal aliens are here to work. They do break the law. Frequently, in the example of Wake county. Also, the immigrants crossing the border can be used as pawns by cartels to smuggle their drugs across the border [5].

I don't see how your definition of harmless really works here.

5.http://www.usatoday.com...
Debate Round No. 4
brant.merrell

Con

The $1.6B is an isolated datum [7] cherrypicked [8] from a budget of $25B and a population of 10M [9], blaming immigrants for economic problems [10][15], assuming immigrants cost more than they contribute because they're immigrants [11], and ignoring their economic participation [12][17], all to disprove social research that shows their stereotypes are myths [3] that manipulate emotion to influence politics [13][14]. Inmates are 0.7% of the populace [15] that we struggle to use [16] - compare with Latino workers [17] who spend their cash [2]. A walking immigrant can't carry $40,000 in drugs, and though you can't see how it works [18], drugs don't shoot people!

7. https://t.co...
8. https://t.co...
9. http://t.co...
10. https://t.co...
11. https://t.co...
12. http://t.co...
13. https://t.co...
14. http://t.co...
15. http://t.co...
16. http://t.co...
17. http://t.co...
18. https://t.co...
Juris_Naturalis

Pro

Juris_Naturalis forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Andy99 3 years ago
Andy99
CON - it seems you are diverting the topic but deliberately using 'immigrant' in place of 'illegal immigrants' just to create empathy for naive readers.

Most legal immigrants don't come by jumping the fence/border. So the discussion about a border wall is all about stopping 'illegals'. Nobody is talking about genuine immigrants here.

If a Mexican want to come to US anytime for work/study etc, he can apply legally and can come easily like millions of other immigrants who come to US every year from far away places like China, India etc.
Posted by brant.merrell 3 years ago
brant.merrell
The best strategy in politics is to have the facts on your side!
Posted by Juris_Naturalis 3 years ago
Juris_Naturalis
Thanks brant. Although I will say, my ranking on ddo is only due to the fact that I challenge people in areas I tend to be more knowledgeable in :p
Posted by Juris_Naturalis 3 years ago
Juris_Naturalis
Thanks brant. Although I will say, my ranking on ddo is only due to the fact that I challenge people in areas I tend to be more knowledgeable in :p
Posted by Juris_Naturalis 3 years ago
Juris_Naturalis
Thanks brant. Although I will say, my ranking on ddo is only due to the fact that I challenge people in areas I tend to be more knowledgeable in :p
Posted by brant.merrell 3 years ago
brant.merrell
Pro - I just finished my round 5, and you have been a worthy opponent. I specifically challenged you out of respect for your previous debates, your superior dbo statistics / rankings, and your stance on the border fence. My expectations were well-met. I appreciate your acceptance of and participation in this debate.
Posted by brant.merrell 3 years ago
brant.merrell
Reference correction: "blaming immigrants for economic problems [10][15]" - the [15] should be [14].

Andy99: This debate is not large enough to discuss the number of immigrants the U.S. should allow, but regardless, I'm suggesting the wall is an expensive solution to a convenient problem.
Posted by Andy99 3 years ago
Andy99
Con, please clarify your point, what are you trying to get at? Are you suggesting that US should open its borders and let millions of illegal immigrants come in from all over the world? How many should US let in?
Posted by Juris_Naturalis 3 years ago
Juris_Naturalis
Arg, I made a typo in my last post :p I put "have access to" twice.
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