The Instigator
Masterful
Pro (for)
Winning
8 Points
The Contender
Youraverageunicorn
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points

A man can not become a real woman

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Masterful
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/2/2017 Category: People
Updated: 9 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,746 times Debate No: 104229
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (72)
Votes (2)

 

Masterful

Pro

-This debate has been funded and backed by the Brotherhood.-

My opponent will be arguing that a man can turn into a real woman.
I personally hold no strong views about trans people, nor ill views. My position is that a man can not just turn into a real woman.

No new arguments in round 3. Keep it concise.
Youraverageunicorn

Con

I accept.

I will be arguing a man can become a real woman.

Woman: An adult female
Debate Round No. 1
Masterful

Pro

Introduction

Let me start with a question. Just because you believe you're a unicorn, does that really make you a unicorn? If not then I would like an explanation as to why you would humor a man who believes he is a woman.
If someone was telling you they heard voices in their head, you wouldn't humor them and say, yes you are hearing voices.
Both the person hearing voices in their head and the man who believes he is a woman, are mentally ill. Please don't agree with them, help them.
This argument is strengthened when you look at the suicide rates in the trans community. [1] 40% of transsexuals have attempted suicide. If this isn't a sign of mental illness then what is?

My arguments

-Men and women are biologically different. [2] Men are born with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome, women have two copies of the X chromosome. This means that no matter how much a man mutilates himself, or how many hormones he pumps into his body, he can never have two x chromosomes.

-The entire chromosome profile of a human being is included in every individual cell, meaning it's possible to identify gender by examining the DNA of even a single cell. This means if the skeleton of of a dead tranny man was found, the scientists who were analyzing the skeleton, would determine it to be male.
Ultimately this means trans-men are simply mimic females, their biology remain set as male.

-The chromosomes of all females contain information which develops a womb and allows them to create life. Some females have damaged wombs (possibly caused by a swift kick to the uterus) or faulty genetic information, but ultimately their chromosomes still attempted to form them as functioning, fertile females. trans-men have no such chromosomal information, therefore they can't be put in the same category as females without functioning wombs. Trans-men don't even have a uterus, this is unique to females.

-Men typically have bones that are more dense. Men also have stronger joints and a denser muscle mass. This gives men an unfair advantage in the world of sports. This means if a transsexual is regarded as a real women, then they'd be allowed to compete against women. If they competed against females in the popular sport UFC, which is cage fighting, then the trans-man would have an unfair advantage and could, break her far more fragile face, with his far more powerful punch.
The same unfair advantages would be seen in other sports such as, boxing, power-lifting and most other sports where denser muscle mass and stronger joints would provide an advantage.

To conclude

It is discrediting to females to say that all they are is a cock-less variant of men with some hormones circulating their body. I value women more than that.

[1] http://www.pinknews.co.uk...
[2] https://www.sciencedaily.com...
Youraverageunicorn

Con

To answer your question, yes I believe I'm a unicorn because it's fun and it makes me happy. But guess what? men and women are proven to exist so this is a different case. Men have become women before.

And also the example you used with the voices, yeah, you may get them help. But if someone is in the wrong body, they know it from the beginning. Usually everyone around them notices too. Why do you insist on making gender just who you are and you can't change it? It's not like you were intentionally born in the wrong body, it's just if your trans, you feel uncomfortable with your body and you want to go to a more comfortable state. Gender should and is stated as who you feel you are. Men and women are just used so you're aware of their body, pronouns, etc.

Your topic was not specified so I am going to fight that a man can become a real woman under circumstances of gender identification, therefore I just have to prove that your arguments don't matter under gender identification.

You're getting gender and sex mixed up in your arguments. Sex is what you were when you were born and gender is how you identify now. If believe you are a women, then you're a women. If you believe you are a man, you are a man.

To get back to the beginning struggle. If someone is truly trans, everyone can tell before their transition. My friend thought she was trans for a while but we all knew she wasn't and was doing it for attention. She even agreed and said she didn't know what she was getting into.

If you ask me I have a big advantage because all I have to say is your facts don't matter since we're debating under gender identification and not if you can have the body of a woman. I am allowed to do this because you didn't specify your topic so thank you.

That's all I have to say for now.
Debate Round No. 2
Masterful

Pro

"If you ask me I have a big advantage because all I have to say is your facts don't matter since we're debating under gender identification and not if you can have the body of a woman. I am allowed to do this because you didn't specify your topic so thank you."

You don't have an advantage because you basically wasted an entire round on refuting points instead of creating an argument for your side.
You have thus far, failed to create an argument as to why a man can turn into a real woman. Believing you're something is not even half the battle, you need to biologically match whatever it is you're claiming to be.

This is a summary of the points you have made in order.

(1) "I believe i'm a unicorn because it's fun and it makes me happy-"
That's fine, but just because you mentally identify as a unicorn doesn't mean anyone has to believe you. In fact, the burden of proof is on you to prove you are.

(2) "Why do you insist on making gender just who you are and you can't change it?"
I never said you can't change what gender you identify as. When I talk about "real women" i'm referring to their true biological sex, which can't be changed for the reasons I gave in my previous round. A trans-man can never truly be a real woman, regardless of his mental identity.

(3) "Gender should and is stated as who you feel you are-"
If true, that doesn't mean a man can become a real woman.

(4) "Your topic was not specified-"
Yes it was. "A man can not become a real woman" is very clear.

(5) "You're getting gender and sex mixed up-"
The word gender refers to the mental identity of a person, the biological sex of a person can not be changed. I haven't got it mixed up.

It seems my opponent has disregarded the importance of biology when determining a real woman. None of my points listed under "argument" were touched upon.

I would like to extend some of my unanswered question so my opponent can hopefully answer them.

-The dead tranny paradox: If a tranny who was born a man died and after the body had diminished into nothing but bones, after scientific analysis, we would determine the skeleton to be male due to the chromosomes within the cells of the bone. In fact there would be not way to tell this skeleton ever became a tranny.

-The chromosomes of all females contain information which develops a womb and allows them to create life. Trans-men have no such chromosomal information, suggesting their biological purpose is different. Trans-men don't even have a uterus, this is unique to females.

-Even trans-men have an advantage in sports due to stronger joints and a denser muscle mass. This further separates the differences between people born a man and people born a woman. Therefore, allowing trans-men to compete against women is highly unfair due to the reality of biology.

-Saying a man can become a woman through belief and surgery is discrediting towards women. A trans-man has never had menstrual cramps, a kick to the vag, the pain of birthing a child or the pain of learning you're unable to fulfill your biological purpose and birth a child. These are all unique to women, trans-men want all the good parts of being a woman, like watching other women getting changed, but they're not prepared to experience the hardships, that ultimately strengthen the mental fortitude of women. Defining them as women.

-Mind over matter: As a Caucasian, could I identify as an African American?
I was born Caucasian, but I like rap music, chicken, and I hang around with exclusively black people. Can I therefore identify as an African American? Ultimately, could I force others to refer to me as an African American male?
Of course not because mental state does not always reflect reality, telling us that biological facts out weight mental identification.

Please don't ignore those 5 important points.
Youraverageunicorn

Con

I did create an argument for my side. I said gender is a state of who you think you are, not how you were born. I actually just proved that you wasted your arguments because I said I was arguing under gender identification, not the your sex.

Gender: "the state of being male or female (typically used with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones)"

I told you everything you are saying DOES NOT matter because I am topical under the definition of gender. That is why I ignored everything you said about the biological status.

Plus, you just said a very stereotypical thing about black people and that's not okay. The mind over matter part, switching genders is doable. There is no differences between races except skin tone but there's differences between sexes. There's things that certain boys talk about and certain girls talk about and that's how it is. I'm not using stereotypes but that's basically it.

My definition talks about how you're in the state of a male or a female. Meaning, you can change your gender by mind and you can get surgeries to have more feminine features and the body of a female which is good enough. My main argument is that gender is what you feel your identity is. If you can stick to your identity, then you have one and that's male or female so there you go, I was not wasting my time, you just ignored my topicality debate.
So I read your points but they don't matter because you completely ignored the goal that needs to be met and you are not topical. Meaning, I technically already won.
Debate Round No. 3
72 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Emilrose 8 months ago
Emilrose
[Round 3]

Pro responds by rebutting 5 different points made by Con; stating that the resolution was clear with the term 'real' and re-emphasizing that the biological sex of a person cannot be changed. He also reiterates further points that have gone ignored by Con, such as the hypothetical scenario of a dead transgender being found-but still being labeled as a 'male' due to his DNA. Pro makes further points regarding the fact that females are naturally predisposed to childbirth, and that the belief that transgender women can become a 'real' woman is 'discrediting' to females due to the biological pains that females have to experience.

Con ends the debate by continuing to ignore Pros biology arguments-instead repeating their contentions from round two. I would also highlight (again) that Con contradicted their own definition, and that this definition benefited Pros case.
**************************
Pro was the only one to provide an argument; with key points in it being ignored by Con-who, for the duration of the debate, used semantics instead.

Therefore, I vote PRO.
Posted by Emilrose 8 months ago
Emilrose
RFD

[Round 1]

Pro asserts that he will be arguing that a man cannot become a *real* woman.

Con accepts this resolution and offers the definition of 'woman: an adult female'.

[Round 2]

Pro primarily bases his argument around the biological distinctions between men and women; from chromosome difference (men having only one copy of X, and women having two), to women having a womb/uterus, to men having more bone and muscle density and so on. Pro emphasizes that such natural functions are not changeable, and that in sporting environments, transgender women have an unfair advantage over naturally-born females.

He also makes reference to high suicide rates within the transgender community, proposing that there is a disassociation from reality and tendency towards mental illness.

Con responds by disputing that Pro failed to define his resolution in round one. Although additional clarification may have benefited the debate, it would seem clear what Pro was intending to argue with use of the term 'real', which Con did not contend in round one, and rather restated themselves with the inclusion of the definition 'adult female'.

Con overlooks Pros points on biological differences, which essentially leaves them dropped. It would seem that Con is attempting to straw-man in insisting on arguing on a distinction between sex and gender; in doing so, they have failed to provide a strong argument of their own.
Posted by Youraverageunicorn 9 months ago
Youraverageunicorn
Thanks but they are different. I told yoU. It's possible to become a woman and race is just your skin tone. Not who you are and how you act unless you're from a different part of the world. I'm not contradicting myself. They are different
Posted by DawnBringerRiven 9 months ago
DawnBringerRiven
Unicorn you just completely contradicted your own logic. Racial identity and gender identity are not so different. If anyone is being mental it is you
Posted by Youraverageunicorn 9 months ago
Youraverageunicorn
Aww I don't think I do. Because you don't understand how mental YOU sound when you say things like that
Posted by Masterful 9 months ago
Masterful
Who are you to discriminate against Caucasians who think they're African American? If their racial identification is African American then you have no right to say otherwise.

You need to apologize for calling people who mental identify as 60 when they were biologically born 15 years ago, mental. That was very rude of you.
Posted by Youraverageunicorn 9 months ago
Youraverageunicorn
Oh my gosh you're using examples that don't make sense! First of all, you don't FEEL African American because there's not much if a difference at all, and a 15 year old can't actually become a 60 year old, they're just crazy! You're able to become a real woman! People want to feel comfortable in their own body. Some things you have to live with but if you can change something to feel more yourself, then you should and you'll be happy.
Posted by Masterful 9 months ago
Masterful
So what you're telling me is, that a Caucasian man can become an African American man just because he believes he's African American?

What about a 15 year old who thinks he's 60? Does that make him 60? Your logic would suggest yes.
Posted by Youraverageunicorn 9 months ago
Youraverageunicorn
And I told you that's the feeling of a woman. If you FEEL like a woman, you can change.
Posted by What50 9 months ago
What50
Hey good job Masterful.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Emilrose 8 months ago
Emilrose
MasterfulYouraverageunicornTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.
Vote Placed by PowerPikachu21 9 months ago
PowerPikachu21
MasterfulYouraverageunicornTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: While "real" wasn't defined in the beginning, I still feel that's where the debate goes to Pro's favor. He proves that men can't have 2 X chromosomes, and have denser body mass. Con brings up people "being in the wrong body", but should've expanded with a source. Con's argument is pretty much "I believe, therefore it is", ignoring Pro's arguments and branching their arguments off a different interpretation. But the key word is "real", which Con seems to avoid. Since Pro proves that biology doesn't allow a man to become a true woman (even if anyone believes otherwise), he gets argument points. Pro uses sources, whereas Con could've used a few themself, so Pro gets sources.