The Instigator
CosmoJarvis
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
GoldFyre
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

ABM is a positive movement in DDO

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Post Voting Period
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/21/2017 Category: News
Updated: 10 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,018 times Debate No: 101169
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (27)
Votes (0)

 

CosmoJarvis

Pro

This will be a short debate on whether or not ABM should be allowed in DDO.

I will take the position of Pro. I do believe that ABM should not be banned on DDO, and should be allowed to continue its (rather outrageous) practices.
GoldFyre

Con

I accept this debate and await my opponent's arguments
Debate Round No. 1
CosmoJarvis

Pro

Outline:
I) Introduction

II) The KKK
III) The KKK and the Trump Campaign
IV) The KKK and the ABM
V) Sources

I) Introduction

I thank my opponent, GoldFyre, for accepting my debate. I hope we can have an informative, civil debate.

I support the ABM's right to stay on DDO is because, through these outrageous comments and debates made by the ABM, the rest of DDO is able to be informed about how terrible and offensive racism can be. Also, the ABM represents racists in such a jocular and ridiculous way that it would be embarrassing to be a part of their white-supremacist and sexist ideology, thus discouraging racism and sexism in DDO. To support my position, I will use the Ku Klux Klan as my prime example.

II) The KKK

The Ku Klux Klan, as many people know, was a white-supremacist movement that emerged in the late 1800s to suppress the rights of minorities, primarily African Americans. The Ku Klux Klan is responsible for torturing and murdering African Americans and sympathetic whites. Freedom schools, Churches, and groups of African Americans were targetted by the KKK, and attacked and firebombed [1]. They were greatly involved in the Civil Rights Movement during the late 1900s. They violently attacked peaceful protests and denounced the movement, calling it a "Communist, Jewish conspiracy," [2].

III) The KKK and the Trump Campaign

Though most of the KKK has disbanded and has been reduced to no more than peaceful protests and internet arguments, it still plays an influence in politics. During the 2016 presidential election, the Ku Klux Klan openly endorsed Trump. The KKK's official newspaper embraced Trump, and the KKK's leader, David Duke, publicly praised Trump for his controversial opinions on terrorism and his "Muslim ban."

Because Trump had refused to publicly condemn the support of the KKK, he lost a fair amount of traction during his campaign trail [3]. Many Trump supporters were frustrated with the KKK's endorsement. especially with Trump's reluctance to condemn the KKK. Even Trump's ghost writer, Tony Schwartz, responded by tweeting: "Is it really possible that in 2016 we would elect a president who is an admitted sexual predator and has been endorsed by the Ku Klux Klan?" [4].

IV) The KKK and the ABM

The ABM is, by no doubt, a troll group inspired by the KKK. They try to offend and get hilarious reactions off of those who are angry with the movement. The ABM teaches us, however, of how ridiculous racist and sexist ideologies. Their image makes sexists and racists seem like a joke and an utter embarrassment.

V) Sources:
[1] http://ocw.usu.edu...
[2] http://law.jrank.org...
[3] http://fortune.com...
[4] http://www.attn.com...
GoldFyre

Con

In order to win, Cosmo needs to prove that on balance, ABM is a positive movement. That is, he can't prove that's there's one benefit and win; rather, he needs to win that the positives outweigh the negatives.

Violation of Terms of Service
According to the terms of service: "Will not upload, copy, distribute, share, or otherwise use Content that is unlawful, obscene, defamatory, libelous, harmful, hateful, harassing, pornographic, threatening, racially or ethnically offensive . . . ." and further "Will not upload, copy, distribute, share, or otherwise use unsolicited or unauthorized advertising or promotional material, "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation."

The ABM admits to trolling and posting inappropriate racist comments, as evidenced by this forum post by the leader, masterless: http://www.debate.org... a

The official signature is : "This is the signature of the anti-black movement- THE WHITE RACE IS THE MASTER RACE, BLACKS HAVE NOTHING BUT S.H.I.T ON THEIR FACE !" (see any of masterless' posts).

Airmax himself has said that this is a group that was created by children for spam purposes that do not fit with the purposes of the site: http://www.debate.org...

If we let ABM violate terms of service, what would the justification be for enforcing it on other people? Degrading the ToS would destabilize the basis for all discussion on DDO and turn it into a spam wars site.

Negative Impacts on DDO Diversity

Allowing flagrantly racist debates like "Black women who are raped should be forced to work in the sex industry" creates an unsafe space for people of color and makes it less likely for them to join the site. That limits the number of perspectives contributing to DDO, which is harmful to rational discussion.

Normalization of Troll Racism Hurts Recognition of Modern Prejudice

Cosmo's main argument is that allowing children to troll on DDO allows us to learn how silly racism is. But what it actually does is normalize everyday forms of racism by defining racism as the silly type of trolling that the ABM does, and not the more insidious forms of racism that pervade our society, such as microaggressions, exclusion, higher standards on minorities for jobs, etc. (http://www.npr.org...)

In order to advance society, we should be focusing on modern prejudice, not on troll debates about how black people should be forced to run on hamster wheels to make energy, how black people are inherently inferior to whites, how Jews should be forced to work in the mines as slaves, etc. I fail to see how these are funny to minorities. These are incredibly offensive and triggering because they relate to actual issues that people have faced in the past, such as slavery and trafficking. We should not trigger black rape victims by claiming that they should be FORCED to become prostitutes (meaning that if they complain of rape, they should be raped again). Rape is not funny, even if the victim is black.

ABM has no place on DDO. They violate terms of service and they harm our discussions of modern prejudice. They are a spam group as defined by airmax. There is no reason to let trolling children spam on this site.
Debate Round No. 2
CosmoJarvis

Pro

To support his argument, my opponent argues that the ABM group violated the terms of service and negatively impacts on DDO Diversity.

He explains that the group violates the terms of service by posting content that is "obscene, defamatory, libelous, harmful, hateful, harassing, pornographic, threatening, racially or ethnically offensive . . . ." and " unsolicited or unauthorized advertising or promotional material, 'junk mail,' 'spam,' 'chain letters,' 'pyramid schemes,' or any other form of solicitation." He claims that "ABM admits to trolling and posting inappropriate racist comments, as evidenced by this forum post by the leader, Masterless." This is, however, untrue. While Masterless says that "when first formed, [ABM] was responsible for a number of outrageous and quite frankly racist debates." He does not admit that ABM was created with the sole purpose of trolling. He explains that there were a lot of obscene and inappropriate debates as a result of "new members being poorly vetted by myself and the rest of the ABM. We allowed trolls into our group that tarnished our reputation, and used our name to put forth their unsettling ideologies." Yes, some of ABM's members were responsible for extremely inappropriate debates and posts, but Masterful, the leader of ABM, never admitted to, as my opponent puts it, "trolling and posting inappropriate racist comments."
My opponent makes no further attempt to provide specific evidence for the ABM being in violation of the terms of service.

My opponent continues by saying "If we let ABM violate terms of service, what would the justification be for enforcing it on other people? Degrading the ToS would destabilize the basis for all discussion on DDO and turn it into a spam wars site." Certainly, we can censor the ABM; we can wipe every member off of the face of this website; take the IP addresses of each ABM member and ban them for life from the website. That'd be a simple solution. It'd take a day at most. Or we can actually work against this threat and tackle it maturely and civilly. We can be the "bigger man;" be the example for others; we can unite as a large group, we can teach people why trolling is harmful, and we can teach others about how racism and sexism are outdated. But hey, we can always just complain until the mods ban the ABM movement...

In regards to my argument, my opponent makes little to no attempt to refute it.
GoldFyre

Con

Cosmo makes an odd claim that I dropped his argument, which is blatantly false. I very explicitly explained that 1) ABM stuff isn't funny (unless cosmo thinks raping black people, enslaving them, making black rape victims prostitutes, enslaving Jews, making black people run on hamster wheels, etc. is hilarious comedy material) and that 2) allowing them to post normalizes and defines ABM material as racism and distracts from more modern forms of racism, which is detrimental to the advancement of society. He very cleanly dropped these arguments, so do allow him to bring up points against these later. These demonstrate that 1) Cosmo is incorrect because ABM posts and debates have no discursive value on this website and 2) the impact of these posts is detrimental to minorities.

Moreover, ABM has actually explicitly stated that its goal is to drive black people off of DDO, further reducing diversity on this website. This was admitted by Masterful and What50 in this forum post: http://www.debate.org.... In the same forum post, they admit to making a hit list for black members of the website and that they wanted to drive these black members off the web site.

I gave evidence from the ToS that a) Racism and b) Spam are not permitted on this website. Cosmo admits that the leader admitted that their members made nasty troll debates that were inappropriate for their site but claims that the leader did not say he did this, so this is a moot point. He also claims that the group was not made for that purpose. I have two responses: 1) It doesn't matter why the group was created; the fact is that regardless of what the original intent of the group was, they still violated the terms of service by posting racist debates and spamming. If a group of friends gets together to play Dungeons and Dragons and they then go out and rob a bank, the original purpose is immaterial. They still should be punished for their behavior regardless of what the original intent was. 2) Master himself was responsible for similar behavior; his own signature says that white people are the master race and black people have "s.h.i.t" on their face. That's a prime example of trolling. He further admits that he himself "got carried away" and behaved inappropriately.

He then claims I gave no other evidence that these debates were racist or spam. I think that's self evidently false. Debates entitled "Jews should be forced to work in the mines" and "black women who are raped should be forced to work in the sex industry" are nothing short of racist spam. But even if you don't take my word for it, take airmax's word for it. Airmax is the moderator, and he banned several members of ABM and removed the vast majority of their posts. He also explicitly said that these were children who were spamming. I don't need to provide any more evidence than this. The moderator deemed their posts as spam and said they were a violation of the terms of service.

His final argument is that we need to be the bigger person, but I think Cosmo really doesn't understand what this means. He has failed to justify why allowing children to troll, spam, and perform their stated function (that they themselves have admitted!) of driving black people off of this website is desirable. Why is allowing them to run amok and do as they please the "bigger thing to do" instead of defending minorities from this triggering and nasty behavior?

More importantly, he has failed to prove that they are a force for good, which is the resolution of this debate. This debate is not "should we let them do as they please". It's about whether or not this racist group of trolling children is a good force on debate.org. Cosmo has utterly failed to prove this.
Debate Round No. 3
CosmoJarvis

Pro

"Cosmo makes an odd claim that I dropped his argument, which is blatantly false. I very explicitly explained that 1) ABM stuff isn't funny (unless cosmo thinks raping black people, enslaving them, making black rape victims prostitutes, enslaving Jews, making black people run on hamster wheels, etc. is hilarious comedy material) and that 2) allowing them to post normalizes and defines ABM material as racism and distracts from more modern forms of racism, which is detrimental to the advancement of society. He very cleanly dropped these arguments, so do allow him to bring up points against these later. These demonstrate that 1) Cosmo is incorrect because ABM posts and debates have no discursive value on this website and 2) the impact of these posts is detrimental to minorities."

I claimed, and rightly so, that my opponent has dropped my argument because he failed to discuss any of my points. He explains that he didn't drop my argument because he "explicitly explained" other points, which are entirely irrelevant to my argument. Nowhere in his arguments has he ever once discussed anything regarding my argument.


"His final argument is that we need to be the bigger person, but I think Cosmo really doesn't understand what this means. He has failed to justify why allowing children to troll, spam, and perform their stated function (that they themselves have admitted!) of driving black people off of this website is desirable."

Either my opponent has ignored my argument made in Round Two, or he chooses not to discuss any of my points. In Round Two, I explained that ABM is a good influence because the actions of the ABM "teaches us... of how ridiculous racist and sexist ideologies. Their image makes sexists and racists seem like a joke and an utter embarrassment."

"More importantly, he has failed to prove that they are a force for good, which is the resolution of this debate. This debate is not "should we let them do as they please". It's about whether or not this racist group of trolling children is a good force on debate.org. Cosmo has utterly failed to prove this."

Again, my opponent clearly demonstrates that he has completely ignored my opening argument.
GoldFyre

Con

Cosmo continues to insist that I dropped his opening argument about how funny and ridiculous ABM is. I find this odd, because I 100% did not do this. I'm going to go ahead and copy and paste my response from round 1: "Cosmo's main argument is that allowing children to troll on DDO allows us to learn how silly racism is. But what it actually does is normalize everyday forms of racism by defining racism as the silly type of trolling that the ABM does, and not the more insidious forms of racism that pervade our society, such as microaggressions, exclusion, higher standards on minorities for jobs, etc. (http://www.npr.org......)

In order to advance society, we should be focusing on modern prejudice, not on troll debates about how black people should be forced to run on hamster wheels to make energy, how black people are inherently inferior to whites, how Jews should be forced to work in the mines as slaves, etc. I fail to see how these are funny to minorities. These are incredibly offensive and triggering because they relate to actual issues that people have faced in the past, such as slavery and trafficking. We should not trigger black rape victims by claiming that they should be FORCED to become prostitutes (meaning that if they complain of rape, they should be raped again). Rape is not funny, even if the victim is black."

That was from Round 1 and it was cold dropped.

Now I'm going to copy and paste my response to the same argument that I made in round 2:

"Cosmo makes an odd claim that I dropped his argument, which is blatantly false. I very explicitly explained that 1) ABM stuff isn't funny (unless cosmo thinks raping black people, enslaving them, making black rape victims prostitutes, enslaving Jews, making black people run on hamster wheels, etc. is hilarious comedy material) and that 2) allowing them to post normalizes and defines ABM material as racism and distracts from more modern forms of racism, which is detrimental to the advancement of society. He very cleanly dropped these arguments, so do allow him to bring up points against these later. These demonstrate that 1) Cosmo is incorrect because ABM posts and debates have no discursive value on this website and 2) the impact of these posts is detrimental to minorities."

So Cosmo is BLATANTLY IGNORING MY RESPONSES and then is claiming that I dropped his argument.

He drops every argument I advanced, including the fact that they want to drive black people off DDO, the fact that airmax ruled that they were spammers in violation of ToS, and the fact that they admit to trolling and inappropriate behavior. There is 0% reason to vote for him in this debate. He's dropping MY arguments and then claiming that I was the one who dropped things.

This is a clean vote for Con. airmax banned the ABM and it was 100% justified.
Debate Round No. 4
27 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by madness 10 months ago
madness
No it was Goldfyre who called me masterless first, you simply quoted him.
Posted by desttoyer 10 months ago
desttoyer
hi
Posted by CosmoJarvis 10 months ago
CosmoJarvis
Ah, geez, I mixed up your name with masterless, my man.
Posted by desttoyer 10 months ago
desttoyer
if abm is aloud in here tell me ill rejoin the clan ok XD
Posted by madness 10 months ago
madness
I would vote, but I'd be bias.
Posted by madness 10 months ago
madness
Who the f**k is this "masterless" guy you speak of? Sound like a swell chap, really want to meet him.
Posted by CosmoJarvis 10 months ago
CosmoJarvis
Stop spamming me ffs.
Posted by CosmoJarvis 10 months ago
CosmoJarvis
Link him to your watt-pad account
Posted by What50 10 months ago
What50
Show him the space story. It's my favorite one.
Posted by CosmoJarvis 10 months ago
CosmoJarvis
Alright. I can't take screenshots on this picture, but I'll show you the screenshot later this evening.
No votes have been placed for this debate.