The Instigator
Purushadasa
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
DNehlsen
Con (against)
Winning
10 Points

ACCORDING to the HOLY BIBLE, CAIN DID NOT MARRY HIS SISTER

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
DNehlsen
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/15/2017 Category: Society
Updated: 5 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 466 times Debate No: 103523
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (2)

 

Purushadasa

Pro

Believers in atheist Dogma (and some Christians as well) often seem to be very confused about the clear facts that God has revealed in his scriptures. For example, they often make the claim that the Holy Bible states that Adam's son Cain married his own sister, but that is a false claim -- the Holy Bible makes it very clear that Cain married a woman totally unrelated to Adam and Eve. Proof for this fact follows, with scriptural references from Genesis 4 and 5:

After slaying Abel, Cain was banished to the Land of Nod, located to the East of Eden (Eden is where Cain's parents were from). Cain participated in a wedding ceremony (traditionally conducted by a Priest or Rabbi and witnessed by numerous friends and family members) with a woman who was native to the Land of Nod (she was not from Eden), and after the wedding ceremony, Cain had one son (a single son named Enoch) with his wife.

After Enoch was born, Cain, not his descendants, built a city in the Land of Nod. The scripture (Genesis 4:17) clearly states that Cain himself built the city, not that his descendants built it. His son Enoch helped him build it.

A standard city is populated by at least 10,000 people. All of those 10,000 people, including Cain's wife, Cain's wife's parents, and the people who witnessed their wedding ceremony, were native to the Land of Nod, and all of them, except Enoch, were totally unrelated to Cain, and totally unrelated to Adam and Eve. Cain's wife never met Adam and Eve, and she was totally unrelated to Cain and totally unrelated to Cain's parents: Cain did not marry his own sister. In fact, Adam never had any daughters, and Adam's granddaughters (Seth's daughters) were not born until long after Cain's banishment to the Land of Nod, and Seth's daughters were not born until long after Cain was already married and had children of his own.

At the request of a confused believer in atheist Dogma, I have copied and pasted some scriptural references to back up the facts that I posted above:

Gen 4:14
Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

(Who was living in the Land of Nod to slay Cain? Obviously, the Land of Nod was inhabited by people unrelated to Adam and Eve, because Adam had not yet had his third child, Seth -- who was a male child -- and Cain had not yet had any children).

Gen 4:15
And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

(Again, who was living in the Land of Nod to see the mark that God put on Cain? Obviously, the Land of Nod was previously-inhabited, before Cain's arrival there).

Gen 4:16
And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Gen 4:17
And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

(Cain was married only after he left Eden and travelled East, to the Land of Nod. Who performed Cain's marriage ceremony? Cain's first child, who was a male child named Enoch, had not yet been born at the time of Cain's marriage. Did Cain perform his own marriage ceremony? Did his wife perform their marriage ceremony? Certainly not -- marriage ceremonies are performed by Priests or Rabbis, and also, the law requires witnesses for marriage ceremonies. Cain's first child Enoch was not born until after his marriage ceremony was performed, so his child Enoch could not have performed the marriage ceremony either. This indicates that there was a Priest or a Rabbi living in the Land of Nod prior to Cain's arrival there, which also indicates that there was a congregation of people living there to whom the Priest or Rabbi ministered -- all prior to Cain's arrival there. A city is a place where at least 10,000 people live, and Cain had only one child (a male child named Enoch) at the time that Cain built this city (the city was also named Enoch), and Adam had not yet had his third child, a male child whose name was Seth, at the time that Cain built this city in the Land of Nod. Where did the other 9,997 people living in this city come from? Obviously, they were all native to the Land of Nod, and all 9,997 of them were totally unrelated to Adam and Eve).

Gen 4:18
And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.

Gen 4:19
And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

(Who gave birth to Lamech's two wives? Certainly not Cain's wife. This is further clear indication that the Land of Nod was fully populated prior to Cain's arrival there).

Gen 4:25
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

(According to Gen 4, Cain had several children, and they married some women who lived in the Land of Nod, BEFORE Adam had his third child, who was a male child named Seth. This is all very simple, clear, and easy to follow).

Genesis 4 ends, and Genesis 5 begins:

Gen 5:3
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

(According to Gen 5, Adam's third child, Seth, was not born until after Cain was banished to the Land of Nod and long-gone, and Adam's third child Seth was not born until long after Cain had already been married and had children of his own. Therefore it is impossible for Cain to have married his own sister).

Gen 5:4
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

(According to Gen 5, neither Adam nor his son Seth ever had any daughters until long after Cain had been banished to the Land of Nod, and neither Adam nor Seth ever had a daughter until long after Cain had already had several children with a woman native to the Land of Nod. According to the above verse, Gen 5:4, it is doubtful that Adam ever had any daughters at all. Even if the daughters referenced above were Adam's and not Seth's, they were clearly not even born until long after Cain had already married and already had children of his own.

The clear and irrefutable scriptural conclusion is that Cain most certainly did not marry his own sister. These facts are crystal-clear from the unedited scriptural references above. Thank you very much).

Short related video containing scriptural references to back up all of the above historical facts:

https://www.youtube.com...
DNehlsen

Con

I may just be feeding a troll here, and forgive me if I am. I, however, would not like to let the false statements here go unaddressed. I am a Young Earth Creationist who believes in a literal 6 day, 24-hours per day, creation. As such, I also accept the clear teachings of Genesis 1-11, unlike some today. Hopefully that will give you a point of reference for my following comments.

Genesis 4:16 says that Cain went out and dwelt in the land of Nod. Nod means wandering. This passage is literally saying Cain went out into the land of wandering. A natural reading of Scripture would lead one to believe there was nothing here until Cain came.

My opponent says that Cain took part in a wedding ceremony, which is not recorded in Scripture. He then goes on to say that traditionally there was a Priest and gathering of friends of familiy. Please note the word tradition in there. All traditions have a root. To assume our customs have not changed since creation is simply foolish. Why would Cain need to have a wedding? Was it even implied? Did you know other cultures have different customs as to what they do in weddings or if they even have weddings at all? You're building your defense off of a mountain of baseless assumptions.

Also, please tell me where the Bible says Cain's wife was not from Eden. Genesis 4:16 says Cain knew his wife after he left. In other words they had sex. The presupposition here is that Cain was married beforehand. We don't know when Cain killed Abel, or if either of them were married. It seems evident from this passage that Cain was indeed married when he left Eden though.

My opponent says that Cain's decendants did not build the city, then he goes on to say Cain's decendant (Enoch) helped him do it. The Bible does not say who helped in building this city.

Next, my opponent goes on to come up with these random numbers claiming a city is "10,000 people," and Enoch was thus populated by 10,000 people. That is one of the most illogical statements I've ever heard. Please explain to me where this number comes from, how we know there are no exceptions, and how we know this was true 6,000 years ago when we have no reason to believe 10,000 people even existed.

My opponent then goes on to say that all of Nod never met Adam or Eve, nor did Cain's wife. Citation please? I will explain later that this is simply untrue and ridiculous at best.

Genesis 2:18-20 says that Adam was alone. It also says that Adam could not find any suitable for him. There was no-one with which he could mate. Genesis 2:21-24 describes God specifically designing Eve, uniquely and for the first time. This passage was the foundation for the teachings of Jesus and Paul in Matthew 19:4-6 and in Ephesians 5:31. Genesis 3:20 says that Adam named Eve what he did because she was the mother of all men. This means all of mankind came from Eve.

The Bible does not indicate how many children Adam had nor when they had them. Cain and Abel are not necessarily the first children, nor are they necessarily the only ones who lived before Seth. Genesis 5:4-5 says that Adam had Seth when he was 130 years old. This passage also says that Adam had "many" sons and daughters. One thing to note is that Seth means replacement or compensation. This is seen in Genesis 4:25 when Adam says Seth was given to replace Abel. Genesis 5:4 tells us that Adam had daughters, but it does not tell us when this happened. Is it illogical to think that within the 130 years Adam was alive before Seth that he did not have more children that were unrecorded? We don't know when Cain killed Abel. They only had to be less than 130 years old. This is plenty of time to have more children before Seth is born! Read Matthew 11. Please note how it does not record any women, but only the birth of men. So even if you were to argue Seth was only son number 3 (Which there isn't really much indication of) that does not give us any clue as to how many daughters were there.

This is not Scripture, but Jewish historian Josephus records that the tradition was that Adam had 33 sons and 23 daughters. If Adam lived to be 930 years old, this is not unreasonable - Especially when you consider God's mandate to be fruitful and multiply.

Also, Genesis 4:17, as it addresses Cain 'knowing' his wife, it uses the Hebrew word (transliteration) ishash. This word means 'from man.' This is the same 'woman' term used in Genesis 2:23 when Adam says that Eve should be called woman because she comes from man. This rules out any theory of God specifically designing this individual women as he did Eve. This woman came from natural process.

A couple more quick jabs as I wrap up. 1 Corinthians 15:45 says that Adam was the first man. Acts 17:26 says we all come from one blood, and that every nation that ever was or will be was of this one blood.

In conclusion, there is no reason to assume Cain married anyone but his sister, and to say so is actually antibiblical. I challenge my opponent to take some time to think about his position and the implications this has on Theology, Soteriology, and even God's nature of Justice. I look forward to his response.
Debate Round No. 1
Purushadasa

Pro

My opponent wrote:

"A natural reading of Scripture would lead one to believe there was nothing here until Cain came. "

No, it means that the people who lived there before Cain arrived were wanderers. Hence the need for Cain to build a city (a city is defined as a place where a minimum of 10,000 people live, or perhaps a minimum of 100,000 [one-hundred-thousand] people live, depending on the definition you use). Would you prefer to use 10,000 people or 100,000 (one-hundred-thousand) people as the definition of a city? I'll leave that decision up to you: Get a dictionary and look it up, and let me know which number you prefer.

"My opponent says that Cain took part in a wedding ceremony, which is not recorded in Scripture."

His wife is mentioned, which necessitates both a marriage and a wedding ceremony, actually.

"Why would Cain need to have a wedding?"

Because he had a wife, and because he was married. Marriage necessitates a wedding ceremony, as you know.

" Was it even implied?"

Yes, when it mentions Cain's wife: Stop playing dishonest games, okay?

"Also, please tell me where the Bible says Cain's wife was not from Eden."

It states that he met his wife after he left Eden.

" Genesis 4:16 says Cain knew his wife after he left."

Exactly! =)

"The presupposition here is that Cain was married beforehand."

No -- Cain's wife is not even mentioned until after he left Eden. You made up the above statement, and it does not appear anywhere in the scripture. As much as you may want them to be, your words are not scripture.

" We don't know when Cain killed Abel, or if either of them were married."

If you actually don't know those things, then you are unqualified to speak on the subject of when Cain was married.

" It seems evident from this passage that Cain was indeed married when he left Eden though. "

You just made that up, and it is patently false: The actual scripture states that Cain met his wife after he left Eden. Your words are not scripture.

My opponent says that Cain's decendants did not build the city, then he goes on to say Cain's decendant (Enoch) helped him do it. The Bible does not say who helped in building this city.""

Okay, that was my fault for not being clear enough: I meant that Enoch's descendants did not build the city. You are very clever to point out the fact that Cain's son Enoch was his descendant, but Enoch is only ONE of his descendants, and my word was "descendants." In fact, Cain's "descendants" did not help build that city, but I will let you have that point nonetheless.

The fact is that the Holy Bible states clearly that Cain and his son Enoch built the city, and it does not mention any of Cain's descendants other than Enoch helping the two of them build it.

Now, a city is defined as a dwelling place for at minimum 10,000 people (or a minimum of 100,000 (one-hundred-thousand) people, depending on the definition you want to use). Where did the other 9,997 (or the other 99,997) people come from? If it was just Cain and his wife and his son Enoch living there in the Land of Nod, as you seem to think, then there would have been no need to build a city there. A simple hut would have been sufficient for the three of them. However, there were clearly at least 10,000 (or 100,000) people living in the Land of Nod at the time that the city was built. All of those people, except Cain and his son Enoch, were clearly unrelated to Cain, and unrelated to Adam and Eve. Cain's wife, clearly a native of the Land of Bod, was also unrelated to Adam and Eve -- except by marriage.

"random numbers claiming a city is "10,000 people,""

There is nothing "random" about the number 10,000. The number 10,000 is very specific and easy to pin down, so I don't know where you got the idea that the number 10,000 could somehow be "random," but if you don't like that number, then we can agree to define a city as being a dwelling place for a minimum of 100,000 (one-hundred-thousand) people instead. Please settle on one of those two numbers, because those are the standard minimum population numbers in order for a place to be classified as a city.

Look up the word "city" yourself, and you will find that some dictionaries insist that 100,000 (one-hundred-thousand) people are required in order for a place to be considered a city. However, I took the more conservative number of 10,000 (which is actually better for your case than the other number listed in the standard definitions). If you would rather go with 100,000 (one-hundred-thousand), that is fine with me! In either case, there were clearly at least 9,997 people living in the Land of Nod at the time that Cain arrived there, all of whom were totally unrelated to Adam and Eve.

"when we have no reason to believe 10,000 people even existed."

The Holy Bible clearly states that there was a city there, built by Cain and Enoch. A city is at least 100,000 (one-hundred-thousand) people by some definitions, and by others, a city is at least 10,000 people. Which number would you like to use? I am fine with either one, but you can't rationally deny the fact that the word "city" refers to a very large number of people, and that the Holy Bible uses the word "city" to refer to the living quarters that Cain and his son Enoch built. Please look up the word "city" yourself, and settle on one of those two numbers -- either 10,000 or 100,000 (one-hindered-thousand): That is what the word "city" means.

"My opponent then goes on to say that all of Nod never met Adam or Eve, nor did Cain's wife."

Adam and Eve never went to Nod, and neither did anyone from Nod ever travel to Eden. Therefore they never met.

"There was no-one with which he could mate."

That's because Adam was in Eden, not in the Land of Nod.

"Adam named Eve what he did because she was the mother of all men."

That is patently untrue: For one thing, Eve was not Adam's mother, although Adam was clearly a man. Therefore she could not possibly have been the mother of "all men."

" This means all of mankind came from Eve."

Adam did not come from Eve, so that is also a patently false statement. Cain's wife, who was native to the Land of Nod, also did not come from Eve. Adam and Eve had no female seed until after Cain had already left Eden. In fact, it is doubtful as to whether Adam and Eve ever even had any daughter. The 9,997 (or 99,997) people living in the Land of Nod, for whom Cain and Enoch built a city, also did not come from Eve.

"The Bible does not indicate how many children Adam had nor when they had them."

If that is true, then you have no basis to make any of the claims that you have made in regards to the number or gender of Adam's children, and all of your statements about Adam's children are therefore unreliable.

"Cain and Abel are not necessarily the first children,"

Yes they are.

Also, Adam and Eve are not necessarily the first humans. In fact, according to the Holy Bible, Adam and Eve cannot possibly be the first humans, because there were clearly at least 9,997 (or at least 99,997) people living in the Land of Nod at that time, which means that those people also had to have descended from a similarly large group of people -- a large group of people who necessarily predated Adam and Eve.

" nor are they necessarily the only ones who lived before Seth."

Yes they are.

" Genesis 5:4-5 says that Adam had Seth when he was 130 years old. This passage also says that Adam had "many" sons and daughters."

That is debatable: The way that verse is worded, it could have been referring to Seth having had daughters, not Adam, because both Seth and Adam are mentioned in that verse, but the person who had daughters is referred to as "he," not specifically as Adam.

In any case, Adam and Eve clearly had no female seed (neither daughters nor grand-gdaughters) prior to Cain's banishment. Therefore, Cain's wife could not possibly have been his own sister.

"Genesis 5:4 tells us that Adam had daughters"

No, actually, it says that Seth had daughters, and in any case, neither Adam not Seth ever had any daughter until long after Cain's banishment, and not until long after Cain met his wife in the Land of Nod, and not until long after Cain had Enoch as his son and built a city with Enoch for the 9,997 (or 99,997) people who were living in the Land of Nod. Therefore, Cain's wife could not possibly have been his own sister.

", but it does not tell us when this happened."

If you actually think that it doesn't tell us when it happened, then you are unqualified to make a conclusive statement as to when it happened or when it did not happen.

" Is it illogical to think that within the 130 years Adam was alive before Seth that he did not have more children"

If you claim that he did, then you are just making it up: Your words are not scripture.

"We don't know when Cain killed Abel."

If you actually don't know when Cain killed Abel, then you are unqualified to speak on the subject of when it happened or when it did not happen.

"This is plenty of time to have more children before Seth is born!"

The Holy Bible does not say that he did, though -- YOU are the only one who says that, but your words are not scripture.

"that does not give us any clue as to how many daughters were there."

If you actually have no clue as to how many daughters were there, then you are unqualified to speak on the subject of how many daughters were there.

"Acts 17:26 says we all come from one blood"

That refers to Noah and his family, not Adam and Eve.

"In conclusion, there is no reason to assume Cain married anyone but his sister,"

Cain never had a sister, actually, and the Holy Bible clearly states the fact that Cain's wife was native to the Land of Nod. Therefore, Cain could not possibly have married his own sister.

Thank you for trying, but sadly for you, the actual scripture contradicts you on every point that you tried to make.
DNehlsen

Con

I think the entire basis for my opponents claim comes from a stupid definition of a city.
1- Wikipedia says that a city can have as few as 1,500 people. The article also says this definition is only common and not exclusive.
2- Merriam Webster says that a city needs only have greater importance or population than a town or village. Being the first recorded living place built by man in the Bible, that sounds kinda important.
3- Dictionary.com says the same thing as the Merriam Webster, and it also says the word City can be used to refer to the center of some region.

https://en.wikipedia.org...
https://www.merriam-webster.com...
http://www.dictionary.com...

Regardless, these are modern american definitions of a word written in a different language 6,000 years ago. Why should we assume that they follow the same rules of definition? There are plenty of customs and words that simply don't carry the same meaning as the original texts of the Bible. Take for example love, which has at least four greek words in the Bible, all of which are translated into one word, love. The Hebrew word here, (transliterated ofc) ir (or iyr) is not necessarily bound to one translation. Your treatment of this word clearly shows you do not have much experience in language translation.

His wife is mentioned, which necessitates both a marriage and a wedding ceremony, actually.
We don't know what the history of the wedding ceremony is, or at what point in history this occured. You're assuming our american customs have always been the same throughout the entire world, which is simply untrue. We see many cultures with different marriage traditions all over the place. A wedding is by no means required for marriage, even today.

Because he had a wife, and because he was married. Marriage necessitates a wedding ceremony, as you know.
Show me where, in the Bible, it said that Cain had a wedding. It's not in there. We have no reason to believe tradition has always been the same, especially in the first one hundred years of existence.

It states that he met his wife after he left Eden.
Incorrect. All the Bible says is that they had sex after he left Eden. There's no reason to assume, based on the text, that Cain hadn't been married before this event.

No -- Cain's wife is not even mentioned until after he left Eden. You made up the above statement, and it does not appear anywhere in the scripture. As much as you may want them to be, your words are not scripture.
It says he had sex with his wife after he left Eden. It makes no mention of a marriage, wedding, or relationship after Eden. The idea that he had a wife to have sex with was just assumed in the text.

" We don't know when Cain killed Abel, or if either of them were married."
If you actually don't know those things, then you are unqualified to speak on the subject of when Cain was married.
Please show me where in the Bible it tells us when Cain killed Abel specifically. We just know it was before Seth. Therefore, you know just as much as I do, and are just as unqualified. Please now quit the debate since you take the position of being unqualified for it.

I meant that Enoch's descendants did not build the city...In fact, Cain's "descendants" did not help build that city, but I will let you have that point nonetheless.
How do we know that Enoch's descendants did not build the city? The Bible records that Enoch had his descendants, and yes this recording does occur after it is recorded that the city was built, but this does not tell us when Enoch had the children. It could have been at any point in his life. We only know he had them. Regardless, why is it relevant who helped build the city?

Adam and Eve never went to Nod, and neither did anyone from Nod ever travel to Eden. Therefore they never met.
Please show me where this is said in the Bible. If it is not said in the Bible, please show me your (auto)biography of Adam's life accounting for every day of the 930 years he lived. If you cannot, you have no reason to assume this.

That's because Adam was in Eden, not in the Land of Nod.
The Bible says that Nod was East of Eden. People are capable of walking. When was the last time you saw God make a special creation so that someone didn't have to do a bit of hiking? When I look at the life of Joseph and Mary, I actually think God was quite fond of having people walk places based upon their lives.

That is patently untrue: For one thing, Eve was not Adam's mother, although Adam was clearly a man. Therefore she could not possibly have been the mother of "all men."
I would presume that this is disregarding Adam implicitely...But the Bible said it, not me. So don't take this up with me.

Adam and Eve had no female seed until after Cain had already left Eden. In fact, it is doubtful as to whether Adam and Eve ever even had any daughter.
How do you know they had no female seed until after Cain left? I can make baseless claimes with no proof too. The Bible, as well as historical legend, both say that Adam had children both male and female.

"Cain and Abel are not necessarily the first children,"
Yes they are.
Prove it...


" nor are they necessarily the only ones who lived before Seth."
Yes they are.
Prove it...

That is debatable: The way that verse is worded, it could have been referring to Seth having had daughters, not Adam, because both Seth and Adam are mentioned in that verse, but the person who had daughters is referred to as "he," not specifically as Adam.
The Hebrew leaves no room for misinterpretation. This is clearly talking about Adam.The subject (Adam) remains constant in this entire passage.
http://biblehub.com...

In any case, Adam and Eve clearly had no female seed (neither daughters nor grand-gdaughters) prior to Cain's banishment. Therefore, Cain's wife could not possibly have been his own sister.
How is this clear? Prove it...

" Is it illogical to think that within the 130 years Adam was alive before Seth that he did not have more children"
If you claim that he did, then you are just making it up: Your words are not scripture.
True, my words aren't scripture. But Scripture doesn't speak on the topic so the possibility is open.

"This is plenty of time to have more children before Seth is born!"
The Holy Bible does not say that he did, though -- YOU are the only one who says that, but your words are not scripture
The Bible also doesn't say he didn't. So for me to say it's a possibility is perfectly in line with Scripture.

the Holy Bible clearly states the fact that Cain's wife was native to the Land of Nod.
Actually the Bible says that Cain had sex with his wife in Nod. Nothing else is said about her or her origins.

Thank you for trying, but sadly for you, the actual scripture contradicts you on every point that you tried to make.
Not really. You've used secular dictionaries, modern traditions, and arguments of silence to refer to my points. Notice how Scripture was never used or quoted by yourself during this round to debate me. You're not debating from the perspective of the Bible, but simply the perspective of what you want.

My opponents reply, and consistent circular reasoning, has made me realize the nature of his intentions. He either has no interest in questioning his own position or is simply a troll. I find this to be unfortunate, as there is indeed room for serious discussion of the subject. Despite this, I look forward to my opponents response.
Debate Round No. 2
Purushadasa

Pro

My opponent wrote:

"1- Wikipedia says that a city can have as few as 1,500 people."

Some say 1,500, some say 10,000, some say 50,000, some say 100,000, some say 1 Million, and some say 5 Million.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (in a BIG way), and agree to settle that a city is a minimum of 1,500 people.

Then where are you claiming the other 1,497 people came from (besides Cain and his wife and child, Enoch?) According to the Holy Bible, they were clearly all native to the Land of Nod: This city is a huge problem for you, even if we agree to define a city as few as 10 people. Are you claiming that a city is made up of just 3 people??? LOLOLOLOLOL!

"His wife is mentioned, which necessitates both a marriage and a wedding ceremony, actually.
We don't know what the history of the wedding ceremony is,"

If you actually do not know what the history of the wedding ceremony is, then you are unqualified to speak on the subject of the history of the wedding ceremony.

"or at what point in history this occurred"

If you actually don't know that, then you are also unqualified to speak on that subject.

"A wedding is by no means required for marriage, even today."

Yes it is.

Because he had a wife, and because he was married. Marriage necessitates a wedding ceremony, as you know.

It states that he met his wife after he left Eden.

No -- Cain's wife is not even mentioned until after he left Eden. You made up the above statement, and it does not appear anywhere in the scripture. As much as you may want them to be, your words are not scripture.

"It makes no mention of a marriage, wedding, or relationship after Eden."

It certainly does -- Cain had a wife, which means that he was married. The fact that he was married means that he had a wedding ceremony.

The scripture says that Cain knew his WIFE.

" We don't know when Cain killed Abel, or if either of them were married."
If you actually don't know those things, then you are unqualified to speak on the subject of when Cain was married.

I meant that Enoch's descendants did not build the city...In fact, Cain's "descendants" did not help build that city, but I will let you have that point nonetheless.
How do we know that Enoch's descendants did not build the city?"

Because they were not born until after the city was built.

" The Bible records that Enoch had his descendants, and yes this recording does occur after it is recorded that the city was built,"

Exactly! =)

"but this does not tell us when Enoch had the children."

Yes it does -- it means that he had them after the city was built.

Adam and Eve never went to Nod, and neither did anyone from Nod ever travel to Eden. Therefore they never met.

That's because Adam was in Eden, not in the Land of Nod.

That is patently untrue: For one thing, Eve was not Adam's mother, although Adam was clearly a man. Therefore she could not possibly have been the mother of "all men."

Adam and Eve had no female seed until after Cain had already left Eden. In fact, it is doubtful as to whether Adam and Eve ever even had any daughter.
How do you know they had no female seed until after Cain left?"

Because that is what the Holy Bible states.

" I can make baseless claimes with no proof...."

That fact is abundantly clear from your posts!

"The Bible, as well as historical legend, both say that Adam had children both male and female."

The Bible does not say that, actually. It says that Seth had sons and daughters, and in any case, Adam had no female seed (neither daughters nor grand-daughters) until long after Cain had already met his wife in the Land of Nod and had his son Enoch with her. Therefore Cain could not possibly have married his own sister -- or even his own cousin.

"Cain and Abel are not necessarily the first children,"

Yes they are: The Holy Bible states that fact explicitly.

" nor are they necessarily the only ones who lived before Seth."
Yes they are: The Holy Bible also states that fact explicitly.

That is debatable: The way that verse is worded, it could have been referring to Seth having had daughters, not Adam, because both Seth and Adam are mentioned in that verse, but the person who had daughters is referred to as "he," not specifically as Adam.

In any case, Adam and Eve clearly had no female seed (neither daughters nor grand-daughters) prior to Cain's banishment. Therefore, Cain's wife could not possibly have been his own sister, nor even his own cousin: The Holy Bible states these facts clearly and explicitly.

the Holy Bible clearly states the fact that Cain's wife was native to the Land of Nod.

Thank you for trying, but sadly for you, the actual scripture contradicts you on every point that you tried to make.
DNehlsen

Con

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt (in a BIG way), and agree to settle that a city is a minimum of 1,500 people...This city is a huge problem for you, even if we agree to define a city as few as 10 people. Are you claiming that a city is made up of just 3 people??? LOLOLOLOLOL!
You ignored 2/3 of the definitions I presented which disagree that you need a specific population to make a city. You also ignored the fact I mentioned that declares the Hebrew does not necessarily mean city as we know it.

Some say 1,500, some say 10,000, some say 50,000, some say 100,000, some say 1 Million, and some say 5 Million.
So we now know there is no set definition of a city and it's simply whatever anyone wants to say it is. You've disproved your point.

If you actually do not know what the history of the wedding ceremony is, then you are unqualified to speak on the subject of the history of the wedding ceremony.
Well I actually said we don't know. This includes us both. Therefore this statement, and every other like it you've made, implies that neither of us are qualified to speak on this topic altogether. You've proven yourself wrong.

"A wedding is by no means required for marriage, even today."
Yes it is.
Please take the time to educate yourself. You're wrong.
http://family.findlaw.com...

It states that he met his wife after he left Eden.
Nope, it says they had sex after he left Eden. Nothing more.

How do you know they had no female seed until after Cain left?"
Because that is what the Holy Bible states.
Please show me where it says this.

" I can make baseless claimes with no proof...."
That fact is abundantly clear from your posts!
You omitted the word 'too' here. Because you didn't address this I'll take this as an agreement to my point.

The Bible does not say that, actually. It says that Seth had sons and daughters...
The Hebrew text proves this wrong.

" nor are they necessarily the only ones who lived before Seth."
Yes they are: The Holy Bible also states that fact explicitly.
"Cain and Abel are not necessarily the first children,"

Yes they are: The Holy Bible states that fact explicitly.
Show me...

the Holy Bible clearly states the fact that Cain's wife was native to the Land of Nod.
Show me...

Anyone can say the Bible says something. Show me. I've quoted and referenced plenty of scripture but you've done no such thing this entire debate.
Debate Round No. 3
Purushadasa

Pro

My Opponent wrote:

"How do you know they had no female seed until after Cain left?"
Because that is what the Holy Bible states.
Please show me where it says this.

" nor are they necessarily the only ones who lived before Seth."
Yes they are: The Holy Bible also states that fact explicitly.
"Cain and Abel are not necessarily the first children,"
Yes they are: The Holy Bible states that fact explicitly.
Show me...

Show me...

Anyone can say the Bible says something. Show me. "

Okay, here:

Gen 4:14
Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

(Who was living in the Land of Nod to slay Cain? Obviously, the Land of Nod was inhabited by people unrelated to Adam and Eve, because Adam had not yet had his third child, Seth -- who was a male child -- and Cain had not yet had any children).

Gen 4:15
And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

(Again, who was living in the Land of Nod to see the mark that God put on Cain? Obviously, the Land of Nod was previously-inhabited, before Cain's arrival there).

Gen 4:16
And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Gen 4:17
And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

(Cain was married only after he left Eden and travelled East, to the Land of Nod. Who performed Cain's marriage ceremony? Cain's first child, who was a male child named Enoch, had not yet been born at the time of Cain's marriage. Did Cain perform his own marriage ceremony? Did his wife perform their marriage ceremony? Certainly not -- marriage ceremonies are performed by Priests or Rabbis, and also, the law requires witnesses for marriage ceremonies. Cain's first child Enoch was not born until after his marriage ceremony was performed, so his child Enoch could not have performed the marriage ceremony either. This indicates that there was a Priest or a Rabbi living in the Land of Nod prior to Cain's arrival there, which also indicates that there was a congregation of people living there to whom the Priest or Rabbi ministered -- all prior to Cain's arrival there. A city is a place where at least 10,000 people live, and Cain had only one child (a male child named Enoch) at the time that Cain built this city (the city was also named Enoch), and Adam had not yet had his third child, a male child whose name was Seth, at the time that Cain built this city in the Land of Nod. Where did the other 9,997 people living in this city come from? Obviously, they were all native to the Land of Nod, and all 9,997 of them were totally unrelated to Adam and Eve).

Gen 4:18
And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.

Gen 4:19
And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

(Who gave birth to Lamech's two wives? Certainly not Cain's wife. This is further clear indication that the Land of Nod was fully populated prior to Cain's arrival there).

Gen 4:25
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

(According to Gen 4, Cain had several children, and they married some women who lived in the Land of Nod, BEFORE Adam had his third child, who was a male child named Seth. This is all very simple, clear, and easy to follow).

Genesis 4 ends, and Genesis 5 begins:

Gen 5:3
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

(According to Gen 5, Adam's third child, Seth, was not born until after Cain was banished to the Land of Nod and long-gone, and Adam's third child Seth was not born until long after Cain had already been married and had children of his own. Therefore it is impossible for Cain to have married his own sister).

Gen 5:4
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

(According to Gen 5, neither Adam nor his son Seth ever had any daughters until long after Cain had been banished to the Land of Nod, and neither Adam nor Seth ever had a daughter until long after Cain had already had several children with a woman native to the Land of Nod. According to the above verse, Gen 5:4, it is doubtful that Adam ever had any daughters at all. Even if the daughters referenced above were Adam's and not Seth's, they were clearly not even born until long after Cain had already married and already had children of his own.

The clear and irrefutable scriptural conclusion is that Cain most certainly did not marry his own sister. These facts are crystal-clear from the unedited scriptural references above. Thank you very much).
DNehlsen

Con

Genesis 4:14-15 - As I've stated before we don't know how many children Adam had by this point in time, so this verse could very easily be referring to those kids. It could also be referring to the children yet to come. It could also be referring to his parents who were already alive. It is a leap to assume this means that there were other men that didn't come from Adam and Eve, which as I've demonstrated contradicts Scripture.

Genesis 4:16-17 - Is never says when he was married here. I've already addressed all of your other assumptions.

Genesis 4:18-19 - What about Adam's children or grand children? If I'm right before, this is a possibility. Also why couldn't it be Cain's wife or could Cain have had daughters? Daughters aren't usually recorded in the Bible.

Genesis 4:26 - This says Adam had daughters. It never tells us he only had daughters after Seth.

Genesis 5:4 - The Bible never said Seth was exclusively Adam's third son. Only the third recorded. You also never showed me where it says Cain and Abel were their first life you said you would either.

Genesis 5:4 - This doesn't say Seth was the third or that daughters came exclusively after Seth. You're making assumptions and adding to scripture.

My opponent cannot even pretend like these veres are evidence. I've already debunked his interpretation on all of them previously yet he cites them again as if they're just as valid. I encourage any spectator to take note of this. I look forward to your final rebuttal. Thank You
Debate Round No. 4
Purushadasa

Pro

My opponent wrote:

""How do you know they had no female seed until after Cain left?"
Because that is what the Holy Bible states.
Please show me where it says this.

Show me...

Show me...

how me. "

Okay, here:

Gen 4:14
Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

(Who was living in the Land of Nod to slay Cain? Obviously, the Land of Nod was inhabited by people unrelated to Adam and Eve, because Adam had not yet had his third child, Seth -- who was a male child -- and Cain had not yet had any children).

Gen 4:15
And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

(Again, who was living in the Land of Nod to see the mark that God put on Cain? Obviously, the Land of Nod was previously-inhabited, before Cain's arrival there).

Gen 4:16
And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

Gen 4:17
And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

(Cain was married only after he left Eden and travelled East, to the Land of Nod. Who performed Cain's marriage ceremony? Cain's first child, who was a male child named Enoch, had not yet been born at the time of Cain's marriage. Did Cain perform his own marriage ceremony? Did his wife perform their marriage ceremony? Certainly not -- marriage ceremonies are performed by Priests or Rabbis, and also, the law requires witnesses for marriage ceremonies. Cain's first child Enoch was not born until after his marriage ceremony was performed, so his child Enoch could not have performed the marriage ceremony either. This indicates that there was a Priest or a Rabbi living in the Land of Nod prior to Cain's arrival there, which also indicates that there was a congregation of people living there to whom the Priest or Rabbi ministered -- all prior to Cain's arrival there. A city is a place where at least 10,000 people live, and Cain had only one child (a male child named Enoch) at the time that Cain built this city (the city was also named Enoch), and Adam had not yet had his third child, a male child whose name was Seth, at the time that Cain built this city in the Land of Nod. Where did the other 9,997 people living in this city come from? Obviously, they were all native to the Land of Nod, and all 9,997 of them were totally unrelated to Adam and Eve).

Gen 4:18
And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methusael: and Methusael begat Lamech.

Gen 4:19
And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.

(Who gave birth to Lamech's two wives? Certainly not Cain's wife. This is further clear indication that the Land of Nod was fully populated prior to Cain's arrival there).

Gen 4:25
And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.

(According to Gen 4, Cain had several children, and they married some women who lived in the Land of Nod, BEFORE Adam had his third child, who was a male child named Seth. This is all very simple, clear, and easy to follow).

Genesis 4 ends, and Genesis 5 begins:

Gen 5:3
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

(According to Gen 5, Adam's third child, Seth, was not born until after Cain was banished to the Land of Nod and long-gone, and Adam's third child Seth was not born until long after Cain had already been married and had children of his own. Therefore it is impossible for Cain to have married his own sister).

Gen 5:4
And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

(According to Gen 5, neither Adam nor his son Seth ever had any daughters until long after Cain had been banished to the Land of Nod, and neither Adam nor Seth ever had a daughter until long after Cain had already had several children with a woman native to the Land of Nod. According to the above verse, Gen 5:4, it is doubtful that Adam ever had any daughters at all. Even if the daughters referenced above were Adam's and not Seth's, they were clearly not even born until long after Cain had already married and already had children of his own.

The clear and irrefutable scriptural conclusion is that Cain most certainly did not marry his own sister. These facts are crystal-clear from the unedited scriptural references above. Thank you very much).
DNehlsen

Con

My opponent just copy and pasted his old, refuted, response towards me. Since he is using points I've already proved wrong and has made no response to my own there is no basis for his claim.

I feel as thouigh I can accurately conclude, as a result of this debate, the most natural and fluid implication in scripture indicates that Cain married a sister or neice of his. Anything outside of this is needlessly complex as there it no real reason for this not to be true.
To the spectators, thank you for your attention throughout this debate.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Purushadasa 5 months ago
Purushadasa
Thank you all for so many kind and intelligent posts.

My engagement on this site was intended, from the beginning, to be a nothing more than a temporary experiment.

I didn't know specifically when it was going to end, until this evening: My girlfriend, Bhaktin Caroline, said something to me that inspired me to make tonight the end of the experiment.

Bhaktin Caroline matters much, much more than this website.

If you are still feeling overly attached after I leave, I apologize, but I will still be leaving nonetheless: I won't be engaging in any further debates, arguments, or conversations on this site, and nor will I be reading any further posts uploaded by its kind and intelligent members -- starting now.

You can argue amongst yourselves, from now on.

Good-bye! =)
Posted by Purushadasa 5 months ago
Purushadasa
Just no, douchebag: Just no.
Posted by Phenenas 5 months ago
Phenenas
Just stop.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by Phenenas 5 months ago
Phenenas
PurushadasaDNehlsenTied
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Reasons for voting decision: More like Poorushadasa.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 5 months ago
dsjpk5
PurushadasaDNehlsenTied
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