The Instigator
Truth_seeker
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
theskeptik
Con (against)
Winning
10 Points

Abaddon the destroyer in the New Testament is probably one of God's angels

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
theskeptik
Voting Style: Judge Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/15/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 687 times Debate No: 63296
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (7)
Votes (4)

 

Truth_seeker

Pro

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...

Revelation 9:1-9 The angel mentioned in this chapter is probably one of God's angels.

First round acceptance
theskeptik

Con

I duly accept, and thanks for the opportunity!
Debate Round No. 1
Truth_seeker

Pro

There is a problem with interpreting this angel as Satan. Look at the following passage:

Revelation 20:1-3

" Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while."

Chapter 9 already says that he is in the abyss, so how can Satan or any other evil angel work against each other? This would contradict Jesus' statement.

Matthew 12:26

"And if Satan is casting out Satan, he is divided and fighting against himself. His own kingdom will not survive."

Clearly Abaddon cannot be one of Satan's demons, therefore he must be one of God's angels.

There are many types of angels which give messages, participate in wars, blessings, and there are also destroying angels.

2 Samuel 24:15

"So the LORD sent a plague on Israel from that morning until the appointed time, and from Dan to Beer-sheba 70,000 men died. "

1 Chron. 21:15 is a parallel

"And God sent an angel to destroy Jerusalem. But just as the angel was preparing to destroy it, the LORD relented and said to the death angel, "Stop! That is enough!" At that moment the angel of the LORD was standing by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite."

2 Kings 19:35

"That night the angel of the LORD went out to the Assyrian camp and killed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers. When the surviving Assyrians woke up the next morning, they found corpses everywhere."

Acts 12:23

"Instantly, an angel of the Lord struck Herod with a sickness, because he accepted the people's worship instead of giving the glory to God. So he was consumed with worms and died."

As we can see, angels can bring death to humans as well.

The abyss is a spiritual prison (Luke 8:31; I Pet. 3:19; II Pet. 2:4; Jude 6.) He allows destroying spirits loose to harm all except those who already were believers.

Revelation 9:4

"4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. "

There are instances where God allows evil spirits to unintentionally do his work such as Paul's thorn in the flesh (2 Cor. 12:7) and 1 Samuel 16:14

"Now the Spirit of the LORD had left Saul, and the LORD sent a tormenting spirit that filled him with depression and fear."

It's very evident that the angel Abaddon is a specific kind of angel in Revelation which will execute God's judgement on all ungodly men.
theskeptik

Con

The Hebrew word abaddon, derived from the verb to perish, is used alongside the word sheol to signify the abode of the dead, a place of perishing or destruction. Revelation 9:11 simply personifies this place in the person of Abaddon, a "king" over the tormenting locusts, and an "angel of the Abyss." Revelation tells us specifically that his "name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer)."

Accepting for a moment the scriptural integrity of the Bible as legitimate revelation, I would agree with my opponent that Matthew 12:16 would proscribe Abaddon from acting against Satan, and dividing his kingdom. However, the Bible does not make this claim. Revelation 20:1-3 is not referring to Abaddon, but to another "angel from heaven." My opponent has failed to establish that Abaddon from Rev 9:11 is equivalent to the "angel from heaven" mentioned in Rev 20:1-3. This is the central plank in his argument.

I agree that there are angels of the Lord who are responsible for death or torment, but the Bible is not explicit in detailing the allegiances of Abaddon the Destroyer.
Debate Round No. 2
Truth_seeker

Pro

Rebuttals :

even if another angel captured the Devil, the fact remains that Abaddon is the king of the abyss in chapter 9. if he were evil, he would still release him. God's angels will always do His will (Psalm 103:20).

The locusts are also parallel to the ones in the plagues of Egypt. This shows that most likely, Abaddon is an angel working to bring justice.
theskeptik

Con

SECOND REBUTTAL

In support of his contention, my opponent now states that Abaddon is "king of the abyss" and therefore, if he were evil, would still release the Devil.

In response, I would merely point out that Abaddon is not King of the Abyss, as my opponent asserts, but "king over" the locusts (Rev 9:11) and "angel of the abyss," (Rev 9:11). His is a misreading of the text. Therefore, Abaddon has power over the locusts only, and not the entire abyss. Thus, he might easily be a fallen angel, and not one sent from God.

In addition, there is no reason to make the connection between the locusts of this incident and the plagues of Egypt. The locusts of Revelation are unlike any Earthly locusts:

"The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle." (Rev 9:7-9)

Debate Round No. 3
Truth_seeker

Pro

While Abaddon is the king of the locusts, he also reigns over the abyss.

Rev. 9:11

"11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon."

In the Old Testament, the destroyer is also mentioned in Exodus 12:23

Exo 12:23 "For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you."

It is probable that they are one in the same person.

There is more reason to believe that this angel exists to execute God's judgement on the ungodly. If Abaddon were an evil angel, he would not willingly obey and cease to strike those with the seal of God.
theskeptik

Con

CONCLUSION

My opponent wishes to establish that Abaddon of Revelation is an angel of God. In Round 2, he does this by assuming that Abaddon is the same "angel from Heaven" mentioned in Rev 20:1-3, which I have shown to be false.

In Round 3, he suggests that Abaddon is the King of the Abyss, which I have demonstrated to be false. In fact, he is king "over" the locusts. See Rev 9:11.

Nevertheless, in Round 4, he now asserts that Abaddon "reigns over the abyss." He backs this up by reference to Rev 9:11. This is erroneous. If you read from Rev 9:7, where it says that "they had king over them the angel of the abyss," it is clear that the pronoun they refers to the locusts alone and not to all of the inhabitants of the abyss. He also suggests that the Destroyer of Revelation is the Destroyer of Exodus. However, the Hebrew word used to describe these two entities is different in either case. It is Abaddon ("Perisher") in Revelation, and ha-mashchiyth ("the destroyer") in Exodus.

In conclusion, it is ambiguous as to whether Abaddon is an angel of God, perhaps with some responsibility for the abyss, or a fallen angel who is "of the abyss" and leader of a group of demonic locusts. I would, however, plump for latter explanantion.
Debate Round No. 4
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by ShadowKingStudios 2 years ago
ShadowKingStudios
Yes, but you need to burn some incense--lavender or rosemary kind--dress in black garbs, sacrifice a small animal, preferably a rodent, and turn off all electrical appliances.
Posted by mightbenihilism 2 years ago
mightbenihilism
If Abraddon is an angel of God, would it then be ok to darken a room, light candles before his image, and strum mournfully on an electric guitar while chanting his name --- perhaps capturing it on webcam then uploading it on youtube?
Posted by Truth_seeker 2 years ago
Truth_seeker
Mind if you clarify RFD?
Posted by Atmas 2 years ago
Atmas
Abaddon is one of God's angels as he is destined to chain Lucifer up for a long time. No demon is more powerful than Lucifer, only an angel backed by god himself could do such a thing.
Posted by cheyennebodie 2 years ago
cheyennebodie
Whoever it is. I, for one, do not want to be on the losing side. And God is on the winning side.
Posted by Truth_seeker 2 years ago
Truth_seeker
Lol i like Enya too
Posted by mightbenihilism 2 years ago
mightbenihilism
Truth_seeker, I think you like heavy metal too much.

Try some Enya, maybe. Or Enigma.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Blade-of-Truth 2 years ago
Blade-of-Truth
Truth_seekertheskeptikTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct - Tie. Both had proper conduct towards one another in this debate. S&G - Tie. Neither committed any major spelling or grammatical errors. Sources - Tie. Both utilized Biblical verses in this debate, thus balancing the point distribution. Arguments - Con. Pro failed to prove that Abaddon was an angel of God. His three main arguments presented throughout the debate were all defeated by Con. This effectively stopped Pro from affirming the resolution and thus these points are awarded to Con.
Vote Placed by ShadowKingStudios 2 years ago
ShadowKingStudios
Truth_seekertheskeptikTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: First, Con played semantics with "king over" and thus to mottle Pro's premise, but never actually demonstrated Abaddon IS NOT "possibly" one of God's angels but rather "he" is this & that. In the same vein, Pro flopped his own premise by chasing after Con's semantics & should have reiterated Abaddon's "connection" to God. Failing to do this implodes his case. Con rightly highlights Pro's biggest blunder "My opponent has failed to establish that Abaddon from Rev 9:11 is equivalent to the "angel from heaven" mentioned in Rev 20:1-3." A logical, scriptural connection was never made, which eludes Pro from capturing MCA nor for Con either (as stated above). Con never committed a violation in augmentation therefore Conduct is his. Both had reliable sources but points are withheld due to them being only biblical w/o external links.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
Truth_seekertheskeptikTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: All of Pro's points were refuted, so the resolution is thus negated.
Vote Placed by Domr 2 years ago
Domr
Truth_seekertheskeptikTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Con showed doubt that Abaddon was an Angel of God.