The Instigator
Greematthew
Pro (for)
Losing
4 Points
The Contender
imabench
Con (against)
Winning
14 Points

Abe Lincoln vs. Barack Obama

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
imabench
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/3/2013 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,144 times Debate No: 34467
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (4)
Votes (3)

 

Greematthew

Pro

I would like to debate you Obama vs Lincoln seriously and professionaly unlike the other debate that you had. I will be arguing that Abraham Lincoln is an infinitely better president than Barack Obama.

Round 1 for acceptance only. Good luck and thank you.
imabench

Con

"I would like to debate you Obama vs Lincoln seriously and professionaly unlike the other debate that you had."

Well good luck with that :P

"I will be arguing that Abraham Lincoln is an infinitely better president than Barack Obama."

Infinitely? (excellent.... a loophole I can exploit in case I need it! muaHAHAHAHAHAHA)

Other then that, I accept. State your case


Debate Round No. 1
Greematthew

Pro

Thank you for accepting, and all sarcasm aside, let's begin :P

Oh and by infinitely, I mean much better...let's not take these expressions into account lol

First we'll begin with our background facts on our presidents and their accomplishments in Round 2, and in Round 3 state why we think that they are better than the other president.

He was president in a time of crisis

Abraham Lincoln, the 16th president of the United States took office on March 4th, 1861 in a time of national crisis. The southern states were having a hard time comprehending the measures of action being taken against them in regards to slavery. While Lincoln and many Republicans opposed this concept of economy, the slave states and most Democrats of the US wanted their rights as states (mentioning the Constitution) and believed that the national government was becoming too big and wanting to take their rights away from them.

Lincoln faced dissention in the north and rebellion in the south. Over four years he worked magic most people could not to hold the northern Union together all while getting Congress together to vote to abolish slavery and managing the American Civil War at the same time. In the end, he and the Union prevailed, joining together the United States back together as a country, ending slavery, and just beginning a second term to his legacy until he was shot in 1865.

He had incredible perseverence and confidence

During the Civil War, Lincoln had trouble with having the correct and most trustworthy generals to fight for him. The Confederacy had the lead over the Union in the war with leadership. Lincoln carried on despite this, assassination threats, Cabinet member bickering, large loss of life in war, and many outside pressures. Through all of this stress, the war was won. When Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address, which announced the freedom of all slaves in the United States, he knew it couldn't apply to those states in the Confederacy until the war was won, which he fought to do and accomplished.

He supported strong, national, economic policy.

Lincoln signed the National Banking Act into law which created a national currency and a network of banks around the country. He was president when the transcontinental railroad was completed and supported the completion of it, which helped people travel from the east to west coast much more swiftly. He supported the Homestead Act which allowed people living in the east to obtain in the west, and then signed the Morill Act which aided in the development of agricultural and mechnical colleges in the western territories of the US.

He had strong integrity and morality

Lincoln obviously supported for and fought for the liberation of slaves in the United States. Today, we can compare politicians to the example that Lincoln has set for generations to come in America. Not to mention he is very quotable. When the Civil War ended, Abe made sure that the leaders and those who associated with the Confederacy were not harmed, hurt, or punished in any way. He told his generals to let them go and be with their country again. This was extremely moral and high-character like of Lincoln or any president to do this to the opposition. Abe never referred to the south as the Confederacy. He was that willing and dedicated to preserving the Union.

Lincoln has landed a shelf-life and high praise among millions

Ten years ago, a book came out named Rating the Presidents. 719 professors, elected officials, and historians were selected and a survey based on many factors and subjects. Lincoln finished 1st out of all presidents with FDR and George Washington finishing 2nd and 3rd. In 2009, another survey was conducted with CSPAN with Lincoln finishing first yet again. Lincoln is said to be the most quotable of presidents and is valued for his high wisdom.

I believe Abe is the best president that we have ever had. In my next round, I will talk about why Abe is better than Barack. And I must conclude my 2nd round by asking my opponent's opinion on who he thinks is the best president?
imabench

Con

Again for the record, I dont actually believe Obama > Lincoln, im just being the devils advocate on this one like I was on the last one.

"He was president in a time of crisis"

Obama became president at a time of crisis to.... In 2009 Obama came into office right as the worst recession since the Great Depression was ravaging the world, and on top of that there was also instability in the Middle East with Israel and Iran, North Korea was causing hell with nuclear tests of their own, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were still raging on, and the national debt was just exploding....

"Over four years he worked magic most people could not to hold the northern Union together"

I dont consider suspending basic Constitutional Rights and creating a sh*tload of new taxes (namely income taxes) to be considered 'working magic' to hold the union together....

http://www.slate.com...
http://www.history.com...

"all while getting Congress together to vote to abolish slavery and managing the American Civil War at the same time"

What do you mean by 'together'? Congress consisted entirely of Republicans who were always behind Lincoln no matter what he did, and he could have Congress do anything since there werent any conservatives to oppose him (Since they left Congress once the South seceded from the union) Congress literally consisted only of Lincoln's own party, there wasnt any 'together' in the equation.

"When Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address, which announced the freedom of all slaves in the United States"

Youre thinking of the Emancipation Proclamation.... The Gettysburg address commissioned the creation of Arlington National Cemetery for army veterans.

http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org...
https://en.wikipedia.org...

Furthermore the emancipation proclamation didnt actually free the slaves in the states that Lincoln was in control of.

"The Proclamation did not apply to the five slave states that were not in rebellion, nor to most regions already controlled by the Union army; emancipation there would come after separate state actions and/or the December 1865 ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment" - https://en.wikipedia.org...

"He was president when the transcontinental railroad was completed.... He supported the Homestead Act..... and then signed the Morill Act"

Lincoln wasnt president when the Transcontinental railroad was completed, Grant was president (http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com...)

"Lincoln obviously supported for and fought for the liberation of slaves in the United States"

Not for those in states already under his control.... Also Lincoln didnt even think that blacks should be able to vote and actually believed that all of them should go back to Africa once the Civil War ended http://www.history.com...

"Abe made sure that the leaders and those who associated with the Confederacy were not harmed, hurt, or punished in any way."

Actually Johnson had to do that for him since Lincoln was shot just days after the Civil War ended....

=================================================================

Lincoln vs Obama:

1) Lincolns election led to the secession of several states from the Union and caused a Civil War
2) Obama's election did not
3) When Lincoln was president the economy of the South was completely torn apart and uprooted
4) When Obama became president not much changed
5) Lincoln thought that blacks and whites shouldnt be politically equal
6) Obama did
7) Lincoln thought it would be best for all blacks to go back to Africa
8) Obama did not think that ^
9) Lincoln suspended basic Constitutional Rights for countless american citizens during the Civil War
10) Obama did not
11) Obama came out in support of Same Sex Marriage while we can conclude that Lincoln probably didnt support it either

"And I must conclude my 2nd round by asking my opponent's opinion on who he thinks is the best president?"

Washington
Debate Round No. 2
Greematthew

Pro

I must acknowledge some mistakes that I made that my opponent has pointed out.

Yes, I meant the Emancipation Proclamation. I wasn't researching this when I typed it and I have no idea why I said Gettysburg Address.

With the transcontinental railroad, I meant to only say that Lincoln supported the completion of it. Yes, Grant was president when it was actually completed. My mistakes.

Let's start off with our crisis topic.

Obama did indeed become president at a time of crisis with a severe recession hitting the US and the world. The national debt was exploding. However, unemployment is barely down then when it was when Obama took office. Iraq is over, but Afghanistan is still going to be on our agenda until the end of next year. Debt has continued to explode under Obama. He is unable to do anything about Israel and North Korea. I am not arguing against Obama, because I think he is a rather okay president, but Lincoln persevered and came through the crisis he was handed.

I dont consider suspending basic Constitutional Rights and creating a sh*tload of new taxes (namely income taxes) to be considered 'working magic' to hold the union together....

I don't know about you, but if you were in the middle of a Civil War that has claimed eight times more lives than the current Syrian Civil War, wouldn't you want to create taxes in order to help pay for what is going on? The idea was to solve it, not prolong it.

Congress consisted entirely of Republicans who were always behind Lincoln no matter what he did, and he could have Congress do anything since there werent any conservatives to oppose him

The 13th Amendment to the United States Constitution outlawed slavery and was passed in 1864 underneath the 38th United States Congress. Congress was not composed of entirely Republicans. The Senate was composed of 33 Republicans and only 10 Democrats, but the House on the other hand was composed of 84 Republicans and 72 Democrats. This is much like the divided government we have today. In order to have the 13th amendment put in the Constitution, we had to have 2/3 vote from both parts of Congress. The Senate was easy with a 38-6 vote (including 3rd partiers), but the House was a different story. They actually failed to pass it the first time, just 13 votes short. They voted again in January of 1865. 16 Democrats voted for the amendment as well and they finally achieved a needed vote to abolish slavery.

Furthermore the emancipation proclamation didnt actually free the slaves in the states that Lincoln was in control of.

Yes, you are correct. But this was given at time where a win for the Union in the war was inevitable. This was to apply to the states that were under rebellion and border state control after the war was over. I don't think Lincoln was that stupid.

Also Lincoln didnt even think that blacks should be able to vote and actually believed that all of them should go back to Africa once the Civil War ended

You must understand that this was in the 1860s. It was not 2013. Abolishing slavery was a huge step in itself. In fact, probably 99% of the entire country (excluding blacks) didn't think that African-Americans should have the right to vote. This was to become a gradual thing instead of a sudden change within the political system.

Actually Johnson had to do that for him since Lincoln was shot just days after the Civil War ended....

Andrew Johnson was a Democrat and Abe Lincoln was a Republican. This is probably the only example in this history of ths US where we had a president and vice president in office of two different political parties. Can we also say that Lincoln was not Johnson in any way? Just because Johnson wanted to do so, does not mean Lincoln did. Johnson was impeached and almost removed from office but wasn't by the safety of one vote. He was a loony. Not Lincoln.

Lincon vs. Obama

1. Lincon's election led to the secession of southern states because they knew his outlook on slavery. Not because he was terrible.
2. Obama did not have a Civil War on his hand. There is nothing going on like there was 140 years ago.
3. When Lincoln was president the South was the Confederate States of America. They had and managed their OWN economy. This was not Lincoln's doing. The CSA was not as economically and structurally sound as the USA. This was bound to happen. Although American's economy was like this as soon as broke apart from Great Britain.
4. When Obama became president, our debt exploded more than it already was and unemployment barely moved.
5. Lincoln thought blacks and white shouldn't be politically equal because of the time period as I have stated previously.
6. Obama thinks so because the year is 2013 and our society has changed dramatically since.
7. Lincoln thought it would probably be that way due to the mistreatment and racism here in America. If Lincoln supported the abolition of slavery, then I think it's safe to say that he isn't a racist.
8. Obama doesn't think that because the USA is the greatest nation in the world and most of Africa is dangerous and corrupt.
9. What would Lincoln do with a war that claimed 600,000 lives? Sit back and play cards? In times of crisis, it has been notorious that restrictions on Constitutional rights be implemented in some way. When 9/11 happened, the Patriot Act was passed which really invaded people's privacy. Although Bush was president, almost all of Congress supported it. Lincoln does not pass the laws himself, he needs support from Congress. So to blame one man for the infringement of millions is kind of inaccurate.
10. Obama and his thoughts about gun laws is a complete example of wanting to suspend Constitutional Rights.

IN CONCLUSION:

1. Lincoln fought through a four year Civil War that claimed 600k lives. Obama has barely fought through the legalization of gay marriage.
2. Lincoln abolished slavery, freeing blacks in the USA and the south after the war was over. Obama has not done anything to this magnitude.
3. Lincoln had a high moral outlook and integrity that exceeds most. Obama enjoys using oversea drones to execute suspected terrorists when it also claims innocent civilian lives as well.
4. Lincoln fought for the economic advancement of our economy by abolishing slavery, supporting the completion of the trans-continental railroad and implementing a national currency and network of banks as well as attempting to implement an income tax. Obama has managed to put our country on a standstill with the economy. In five years, it hasn't really improved significantly.


Thanks for a productive debate! I enjoyed it.
imabench

Con

"wouldn't you want to create taxes in order to help pay for what is going on?"

*Insert stereotypical republican horsesh*t argument about making taxes more effective rather then make new ones to pay for stuff*

"Congress was not composed of entirely Republicans. "

It was when the Homestead Act and some of the other bills Lincoln signed that you brought up were passed... And the bill to abolish slavery was almost unanimously opposed by conservatives, which is the same way today with everything Obama proposing being opposed by conservatives. Hell if Obama wanted to pass a bill to lower taxes Republicans in Congress would immediately crucify him for wanting to cut taxes with the debt being so high (because theyre retarded like that)

Lincoln could only pass bills with a massive majority in Congress,
Obama could only pass bills with a massive majority in Congress

"In fact, probably 99% of the entire country (excluding blacks) didn't think that African-Americans should have the right to vote. "

There were people in Congress who actually thought that blacks should be politically equal to whites:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
In fact about a third of Lincoln's own party believed that once slavery ended blacks should be able to vote:
http://en.wikipedia.org...

"Andrew Johnson was a Democrat and Abe Lincoln was a Republican. This is probably the only example in this history of ths US where we had a president and vice president in office of two different political parties."

Early US presidential elections were structured so that the winner would become president and that the loser would become vice president, so there were actually a good number of Presidents with Voce Presidents of a different party, the most well known being Adams (Federalist) with Jefferson as his VP (Dem-Rep)

" Johnson was impeached and almost removed from office but wasn't by the safety of one vote. He was a loony. Not Lincoln."

So you admit that Lincoln chose a loony of a Vice President?

Wait, Obama picked Biden whose equally loony. Nevermind.

"1. Lincon's election led to the secession of southern states because they knew his outlook on slavery. Not because he was terrible."

Still, his election caused the country to split up whereas Obama brought the country together (for roughly 3 months before it went to hell)

"2. Obama did not have a Civil War on his hand. There is nothing going on like there was 140 years ago."

Oh so blame the guy before Lincoln for why Lincoln inherited the problem? Obama does the same thing with bush on everything so that just makes them more even.

"3. When Lincoln was president the South was the Confederate States of America. They had and managed their OWN economy. This was not Lincoln's doing. "

Im sure the South was managing it just fine too before Lincoln came in and legit burned it all to the ground.

"4. When Obama became president, our debt exploded more than it already was and unemployment barely moved."

Well if Lincoln is allowed to blame the presidents before him for the mess he inherited, then Im going to do the same for Obama and say that the presidents before Obama made the mess that Obama inherited.

"5. Lincoln thought blacks and white shouldn't be politically equal because of the time period as I have stated previously."

There were tons of people who thought blacks should be able to vote in the 1860's, that argument is just plain false, and it doesnt discredit the fact that Lincoln was kinda racist.

"7. If Lincoln supported the abolition of slavery, then I think it's safe to say that he isn't a racist."

Well Im against police profiling but if I see a black guy walking towards me on a small sidewalk im still crossing the street. That means im still kinda racist even though I dont condone it, and the same logic applies to Lincoln.

"9. What would Lincoln do with a war that claimed 600,000 lives? Sit back and play cards? In times of crisis, it has been notorious that restrictions on Constitutional rights be implemented in some way."

Just because its a time of war it doesnt mean that the government can go ahead and arrest people without saying what they are accused of doing.... Bush arguably invaded peoples privacy but Lincoln flat out repealed Constitutional Rights which Obama has never done and could get a modern president impeached in a heart beat

"Lincoln does not pass the laws himself, he needs support from Congress. So to blame one man for the infringement of millions is kind of inaccurate."

Im not putting the blame all on him im just saying he played a massive role in the repealing of Constitutional rights, so he is kind of responsible even if you dont want to admit it.

"10. Obama and his thoughts about gun laws is a complete example of wanting to suspend Constitutional Rights."

Im sorry, I didnt know that you were a psychic who knows what Obama is thinking about. Also the second amendment isnt universal, its illegal to own a rocket launcher or a tank and background checks arent against the Constitution.

"Lincoln fought through a four year Civil War that claimed 600k lives. Obama has barely fought through the legalization of gay marriage."

Oh for f*cks sake, thats how youre going to compare them, really? Lincoln didnt HAVE to invade the South the second he became president since it can be argued that states have the right to secede while im also pretty sure Lincoln had some pretty racist sh*t to say about gays....

"Lincoln abolished slavery, freeing blacks in the USA and the south after the war was over. Obama has not done anything to this magnitude."

You and I both know that blacks didnt become truly equal to whites until around 1987..... After the Civil War blakcs still got lynched in the thousands, and thanks to Jim Crow laws and Sharecropping, blacks were still treated like slaves well after the Civil War ended...

"Lincoln had a high moral outlook and integrity that exceeds most. Obama enjoys using oversea drones to execute suspected terrorists when it also claims innocent civilian lives as well."

And how many innocent civilian lives were claimed during the Civil War exactly? Im going to guess a couple thousand more then Obama ever droned to death. Also, how does not thinking blacks should be able to vote give Lincoln a 'high' moral outlook?

==========================================================================

Final Score:

Civil Wars caused:
Lincoln 1, Obama 0

Constitutional Rights violated:
Lincoln 1, Obama 0

Americans dead while president:
Lincoln hundreds of thousands, Obama a couple hundred

States seceded while president
Lincoln 11, Obama 0

Economies destroyed:
Lincoln 1/2 (The South's), Obama 0 (If you think the American economy was destroyed by Obama then youre a dumba**)

Racist:
Lincoln yes, Obama no

Thinks blacks should be able to vote:
Lincoln no, Obama yes

When you tally up the scores, Obama kind of has some strong points over Lincoln. They are at the very least equal with Lincoln not being infinitely better then Obama
Debate Round No. 3
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by leojm 3 years ago
leojm
I hate both! But I would have to go with Lincoln on this one.
Posted by Greematthew 3 years ago
Greematthew
http://en.wikipedia.org...

http://en.wikipedia.org...

I don't know why I keep forgetting to post sources. Here are my sources for the 3rd round.
Posted by Greematthew 3 years ago
Greematthew
Done.
Posted by imabench 3 years ago
imabench
Make it 3 rounds
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by Guy_D 3 years ago
Guy_D
GreematthewimabenchTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Piss poor arguments by Pro. And had Con been arguing as Pro... He'd win that as well.
Vote Placed by x2MuzioPlayer 3 years ago
x2MuzioPlayer
GreematthewimabenchTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: I don't have enough by Pro to consider Abraham Lincoln as "much better" than Barack Obama. The biggest hinderance I find in Pro's case is the tearing apart of the South's economy. Con compared the two economies where one was literally wrecked and the other more or less holding onto thin strings. Yes, Lincoln did have a positive stance against slavery, however he didn't find them equal as people, like Con said. It can be considered major progress to abolish slavery, but as Con pointed out equality was never even attempted to be established until the 1900s, far beyond what Lincoln could have done (being, you know, shot). Overall, with what I'm given in this debate, I don't find it a compelling conclusion to say Lincoln was "much better" as a president.
Vote Placed by Ameliamk1 3 years ago
Ameliamk1
GreematthewimabenchTied
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Total points awarded:42 
Reasons for voting decision: I assume all passages con did not take specific issue with I can take as valid. Pro successfully justified the use of controversial tactics in a war like the civil war, which con failed to criminalize, given the circumstances, and the fact that none were permanent. Also, ironically, Obama may not have never been president if not for Lincoln.