The Instigator
bettabreeder
Pro (for)
Losing
4 Points
The Contender
Buggie111
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

Abe Lincoln was a bad President

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
Buggie111
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/12/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 930 times Debate No: 45764
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (3)

 

bettabreeder

Pro

I am arguing that Abraham Lincoln was not the best President as the American people say. If you decide to debate, you will pick Con/against stating that he was good for us.
Good Luck :)
Buggie111

Con

Accepted.

Firstly, I"ll define "good".
good-to be desired or approved of.

Now, for a simple numbered list of what Abraham Lincoln has done for us.
1. Successfully guide America through a 5 year Civil War without permanent loss of territory or secession by Southern states.
Are modern day Americans opposed to the fact that 11 specific states are still part of our Union, specifically South Carolina, Florida, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, Virginia, Arkansas, Tennessee, and North Carolina? No. Not a sizeable majority of them.
2. Pass the Pacific Railroad Acts (which wouldn't have passed with democratic gridlock in Congress), which ended up significantly growing the Western coast and US. trade in terms of size and economy. Desirable? Yes.
Are modern day Americans opposed to products/services produced by California, Oregon, and Washington State, as well as products from Asia and trade to those countries? No. Once again, something desirable.
3. Attempt to give specific civil rights to African Americans via the Emancipation Proclamation and the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments.
Is modern day America not approving of the awarding of specific civil rights to African Americans, like the right to vote, citizenship, and protection against involuntary servitude? No. Already I"ve listed three things that Lincoln has accomplished for this nation.

Pro, I await your reply.
Debate Round No. 1
bettabreeder

Pro

Thanks for accepting :)
I think Lincoln was not the best president the Country had because he took the rights away from several states to tax them higher then the Northern states because of agriculture was more expensive than industrial uses. Many Northern didn't believe in war and wanted the South to leave in peace but Lincoln declared war on the seceding states then lost four more. Lincoln abused his power, and misread the Constitution. If a state (Maryland) wanted to leave let them leave don't send there governor to jail and there secessionist to death. That's what he did to keep Maryland in the Union! He murdered innocent Men of the South; During the war Lincoln sent generals like Sherman to March and steal and kill Planters and just innocent family's living in there houses. More Americans, North and South died under a presidents power than any other presidents in American History. Lincoln blocked of all Southern Ports without a war document, that's a war crime. And He invaded another country. The South wanted peace; Not war but Lincoln blocked off all ports and sent soldiers into the Charleston Harbor.
Buggie111

Con

Alright, point by point rebuttals. Id like to note that pro seems to have confused "good" with "best", and that this argument he has posted is a verbatim replica of an earlier debate. Nevertheless, here I go:

1. "I think Lincoln was not the best president the Country had because he took the rights away from several states to tax them higher then the Northern states because of agriculture was more expensive than industrial uses"

Pro is arguing that Lincoln passed some legislation (possibly either of the two revenue Acts) that unfairly taxed Southern stats. This is false. As all 11 Confederate states had already seceded by the passage of the first Revenue Act, they were not affected by any import, excise, property, or income taxes levied by the Government under Lincoln. Sundown clauses in these pieces of legislation had them expire soon after Appomattox, meaning that Southern states weren't affected by Lincoln's tax plans.

2. "Many Northern didn't believe in war and wanted the South to leave in peace but Lincoln declared war on the seceding states then lost four more. "

Popular sentiment after Fort Sumter was generally pro-invasion. (1861: The Civil War Awakening Goodheart, Adam). By invading the C.S.A., Lincoln was listening to the popular will in the Union.

3. "Lincoln abused his power, and misread the Constitution. If a state (Maryland) wanted to leave let them leave don't send there governor to jail and there secessionist to death. That's what he did to keep Maryland in the Union! "

Quoting the U.S. Constitution (emphasis in CAPS), "The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in CASES OF REBELLION or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

Thus, Lincoln's actions during the Civil War, including martial law in Kentucky and Maryland, as well as suspension of Habeus Corpus, were perfectly legal, as the C.S.A. was in open rebellion.

4. "He murdered innocent Men of the South; During the war Lincoln sent generals like Sherman to March and steal and kill Planters and just innocent family's living in there houses. More Americans, North and South died under a presidents power than any other presidents in American History."

Sherman did his deed without any conversation with Washington, so Lincoln can't be blamed for this action. And also, before the fall of Atlanta, confederate resistance was generally strong enough in most areas to prevent scorched-earth policies like those of General Sherman.

5. " Lincoln blocked of all Southern Ports without a war document, that's a war crime. And He invaded another country."

The First Geneva Convention was not written and ratified until 1864, and neither it, nor future Geneva Conventions, nor the Hague Conventions, dealt with potential illegality of the blockade of enemy ports. Thus, this is not a war crime.

6. "and sent soldiers into the Charleston Harbor."

I am assuming Pro is referencing the garrisons in Forts Sumter and Moultrie which were fired upon in April of 1861. This garrison was there when south Carolina seceded in December of 1860, and thus was not stationed there by Lincoln. (Burton, E. Milby. The Siege of Charleston 1861"1865)

I'd also like to add to my argument that Lincoln passed the Homestead, Morrill Land Grant Colleges, and National Banking Act, all of which helped America by boosting settlement in the West, creating many new affordable state colleges, and regulating American currency.

Pro, time's yours.
Debate Round No. 2
bettabreeder

Pro

Lincoln didn't give a crap about the Slaves he only cared about his county. Slaves in the CSA thought it was a blessing to be freed by his proclamation, Lincoln freed them from the states that applied to make the South poor and make them bail out on agriculture.
The Confederacy Freed her slaves a couple months later after the proclamation for them to FIGHT IN THE WAR. During the war, Lincoln assigned that all Confederate prisoners will be killed-witch is a war crime.
Here's some quotes that he said in public
1. "BLACKS AND MEXICANS ARE THE SAME AS MONGREL DOGS!"
2. "NO BLACK SHOULD EVER BE ALLOWED TO SERVE ON A JURY!"
3. "BLACKS ARE INFERIOR TO WHITES!
http://civilwartalk.com...;
regional new paper has been writ in about him and he order to shut down the sight and jail the writers for violating his personal space (um, everyday I hear something about our president)
Buggie111

Con

It doesn't matter what a President says while passing law, it's the law that matters. And in this case, the EP and 13th Amendment, while potentially contrasting with Lincoln's spoken position on slavery during the Stephen Douglas debates, have not had their impact changed simply because their creator once said something negative about African Americans.

I made add that the first quote that Pro references can't be found online (the other two both occured at the 4th Douglas Debate in Charleston, Illinois).

More point by points.

1. "Lincoln didn't give a crap about the Slaves he only cared about his county"
See intro. Lincoln may have been a flip-flopper like Mitt Romney and have said anti-equality comments during his Senate run, but his position on the slaves post-Sumter was generally a supportive one. And I like that you admit he cared for his country. Is that not the symbol of a "good" President?

2. "Lincoln freed them from the states that applied to make the South poor and make them bail out on agriculture"

Is Pro attempting to state that Lincoln was part of a large conspiracy to cripple the South's agriculturally based economy for the next 150 years? Decline to comment.

3. "The Confederacy Freed her slaves a couple months later after the proclamation for them to FIGHT IN THE WAR."

Although the first idea of Confederate black emancipation was proposed by General Patrick Cleburne 11 months after implementation of the Emancipation Proclamation, the idea was rejected almost unanimously by Davis' Cabinet. A statue was finally passed on March 13th of 1865 by a 40-37 House vote and 9-8 Senate vote, but only 200 blacks (all in Virginia) were mustered in via this law before the end of the war. (Bruce Levine, Confederate Emancipation: Southern Plans to Free and Arm Slaves During the Civil War.)

4. "During the war, Lincoln assigned that all Confederate prisoners will be killed-witch is a war crime."

No such law was passed during the Civil War. The Battle of Sailor's Creek, of April 6th, included 7,700 captured by the Union. None of these men were summarily executed under Presidential orders.

5. "regional new paper has been writ in about him and he order to shut down the sight and jail the writers"

Valid point. Lincoln did sidestep the First Amendment during the Civil War by closing multiple anti-war newspapers. First real knock against him.

So, ladies and gentlemen, that's all I have to say. Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Buggie111 2 years ago
Buggie111
Voters, that one source posted is a broken link. Just FYI.
Posted by Fangedbeast8764 3 years ago
Fangedbeast8764
well you see I believe he was a TERRIBLE president because he got ride of our slaves. if you think about it we would have NO unemployment because blacks would not be able to work (outside their owners house) and all the whites would have the jobs.
Posted by Nels4Tats 3 years ago
Nels4Tats
You should probably change the name because Abraham Lincoln wasn't a bad president. He was not \the BEST though.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by iamanatheistandthisiswhy 2 years ago
iamanatheistandthisiswhy
bettabreederBuggie111Tied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: I have to give the argument points in the debate to Con, as the proposition did state good and not best. As such Con was able to show that Abraham Lincoln played a big role in making the USA a great country by improving economic and civil rights factors. all other points are tied. S&G as there is not much to discern, also sources as the ones cited are almost equal. Conduct was good by both opponents.
Vote Placed by Actionsspeak 2 years ago
Actionsspeak
bettabreederBuggie111Tied
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Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: Only one source was used, but Con won argument because Pro focused on racism while ignoring the fact that lincoln freed the slaves.
Vote Placed by Jay-D 2 years ago
Jay-D
bettabreederBuggie111Tied
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Reasons for voting decision: Only one external source was used in the entire debate, and Pro gets the points for it. Con's rebuttals were concise and effective, and hence he gets 3 points for the same. S&G was pretty much even. Same goes for conduct. All in all, it's 3-2 in Con's favour.