The Instigator
InVinoVeritas
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
bjrscj
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Abolition of SAT/ACT

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
bjrscj
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/10/2011 Category: Education
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 7,033 times Debate No: 19780
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (10)
Votes (2)

 

InVinoVeritas

Pro

Terms:
No slandering. Standard rules of formal debate apply.

Definitions:
Abolition: Formally putting an end to something
SAT/ACT: Standardized exams used for college entrance

PRO is arguing for abolition of SAT/ACT, and CON is arguing against abolition of SAT/ACT.

First argument for both PRO and CON is strictly for acceptance, setting terms of debate, and establishing definitions.

Thank you.
bjrscj

Con

I'm looking forward to debating with you. This is my first debate on here, so if I'm out of order in any way, please let me know. From my understanding, all I am to do in this round is clarify any terms you made that I disagree with.

Terms:
This sounds great to me. I'm not sure what the standard rules of debate are, but if it's being polite, you'll have no worries here.

Definitions: I agree to these terms

Once again, I'm looking forward to this. Thanks.
Debate Round No. 1
InVinoVeritas

Pro

Thank you for accepting.

My premises:

College Board, the makers of the SAT used to say that it is impossible to improve your score through additional preparation. It has completely backed off of that theory and in fact have made a business out of test preparation, selling SAT study materials. How is it possible to ethically compare two applicants when one had the opportunity to take prep courses for the exam while the other did not have the means to? Hence, this exam is biased and gives an advantage to upper class students who can afford preparatory instruction for the exam.

SAT results are also used for scholarships. Universities set cut-off scores for specific amounts of money. This is clearly a violation of the beliefs of the test-makers, who state that, due to measurement error in the test, two scores must differ by 125 points before it can be deemed undeniably significant and valid. We see that accelerated programs, such as the one at Johns Hopkins University, whose primary admissions criterion tend to have a lack of minority and female students.

The SAT attacks females. Although females' grades were higher on their secondary school transcripts, their SAT scores were, on average, 26 points lower (in 2006.) Studies show that this difference may be due to the test's emphasis on speed over mathematical reasoning; less strictly timed tests involving math tend to yield equal results between genders.

Students who are bilingual are hurt by the SAT. Studies say that the SAT does not predict their college performance accurately, as it is meant to do. Even bilingual students whose primary language is English are adversely affected, according to studies.

In 2009, Wake Forest University became the first top-30 university in the US to make the SAT requirement optional in hopes of broadening its applicant pool. Since then, its student pool has more diversity than it ever had, consisting of more minority and female students. This has been an effective policy for Wake Forest.

Over 740 universities (like Wake Forest) accept students without test score submissions, and the number is growing, as admissions committees across the country realize the ineffective nature of the SAT and its inability to accurately predict college performance for many people.

http://fairtest.org...
SAT Wars, by Joseph Soares (2011)

Thank you. I look forward to my oppositions response.
bjrscj

Con

Before I get into discussing your particular contentions, I should warn you that I am going to agree with you a lot more than you may have thought. I think this is primarily because I take issue with your conclusion, not necessarily your premises. I find that the idea of "abolition" in regards to the SAT is not only un-necessary, but at the moment, rather deleterious. I will set up my thoughts, then respond to yours.

First, I would like to make it know that both I and my wife are middle school teachers, and we have a significant amount of fiends who teach at various levels. While this by no means implies I have the right answer, I do believe my experiences and observations provide legitimate evidence. This evidence must be taken in light of the whole body of evidence, however, not as the nail in the coffin of my argument.

From my time spent in the eduction system, I can assure you that it is not only tests that have been standardized, but grades as well. Teachers are not allowed to score missing homework lower than a "50," teachers here are required to give a re-test if a child does not like his/her grade, and teachers are put under heavy scrutiny if they challenge their kids enough to ensure that only a relatively small portion are earning "A's." Learning requires dissonance, and the schools are not providing that in many ways. "A's" are expected. Since there is nothing above an "A," there is no differentiation between the large amounts of students who find themselves in what should be an exceptional place.

For this reason, colleges are unable to look at grades alone to determine admission. They don't want to take the chance that someone got all "A's" but came from a lax school. Colleges have their own standards to live up to. Their accreditation and ratings often hinge on the success of students as well as retention. Not only is student success vital for college accreditation, it's vital for the institution financially as well as for their reputation.

When someone goes to Harvard, Harvard wants to make sure that they are getting a student who will succeed. This is not only for Harvard's good, but for the good of the student. Why would you want a kid to flunk out and waste all that money because they weren't prepared? Colleges are as diverse as the secondary grading systems. However, each college knows what standards it needs to uphold for entry to ensure that students succeed, and the colege's business is preserved.

To give an analogy, going to college is a lot like taking out a loan. One generally has to have a certain amount of capital to get approved for a loan. So when I go to buy a house, I put down an indication of my ability to pay for that house and my commitment to making those payments by making a down payment. If I can't do that or if I have a bad credit history, the bank is not going to put themselves on the line for my sake, nor should they. We all see what happened when banks took on clients they couldn't back. I think the same thing is true with the SAT. The SAT is an indication that you have the intellectual capital required to succeed. Do people still go belly-up on loans and in college? Sure. But there has to be some universal standard whereby we can assess the situation to act reasonably.

Before I address what I agree with, I do want to point out one particular point of contention. You mention that SAT scores aren't predictors of success, but from my understanding, the data disagrees. There is a great analogy given at the bottom of page1 of the link I will post at the bottom. Basically, if Harvard only accepts kids with SAT scores above 1400, there will be a certain percent that fail and a certain percent that excel. Since some fail, you would argue that the SAT score wasn't a good predictor. However, what if the failures of Harvard went to a community college? Chances are, they would probably pass (assuming the problem at Harvard was intellectual). SAT scores predict very well the ability of people to perform in the minor league colleges or the major league colleges. But comparisons made within those leagues cannot be done, which is what you are referring to when saying SATs are inaccurate. This is a category erro.

Now, as you have pointed out, there are significant problems with the SAT, all of which I would concede. However, my contention with your argument is still the idea that abolition is not the best route to take at this time. While the SAT may be imperfect, it is quantifiable due to it's universal nature. Everyone is taking the same test, so we can begin to see patterns and adjust. Look at your example of females scoring 26 points lower. An easy temporary solution to that is to add 26 points to all of the female scores. Why? Because we can quantify the difference.

Obviously a bigger fix needs to be done. We can't just go around throwing points at everyone. There is something flawed with the test in relation to many different groups. But how are the school systems any different? Depending on your teacher's teaching style, depending on your school's philosophy, and depending on your school's grading system, there will be huge discrepancies in grades. Schools are just like the SAT in that they are based on the majority and they have a set goal in mind that they expect everyone to ascribe and adhere to. But again, the major difference is that with the SAT, you have a more universal comparison system which is more fair than looking at grades, since you can quantify it.

While the SAT certainly has problems, and while I couldn't agree with you more as to their big business mentality (I had to take 4, $80 tests to get my teaching license), we can't just abolish the SAT. The ineffectiveness of the SAT should spur us on to revise it to make it more fair, and it should spur on colleges like Wake Forest to find alternative means of accurately surveying entrants to their college, and other companies and colleges to create more accurate tests. While this big picture may involve the abolition of the SAT as it fails to compete with its more accurate competition, it does not involve abolishing it at this moment, or giving up on revising it, and other tests like it to make the system more fair.

Above all, I think the necessity of something like the SAT shows us that the root problem is the institutions of learning themselves. I am all for holding students to a high standard, but schools can't do that until parents are willing to allow their children to experience dissonance. Until the educational institutions change, however, there will be a need for the SAT, or similar contemporaries.

I'm looking forward to your response
Debate Round No. 2
InVinoVeritas

Pro

The opponent has a very interesting take on this issue.

A study compared university admissions decisions made when only considering high school record with admissions decisions made when considering both high school record and SAT score. More than 90% of the admissions decisions that were made were the same. At the same time, the remaining 10% was greatly affected by which method was implemented. When SAT was considered, many minority and low-income student were rejected from being included in this 10%. Therefore, colleges do not need SAT scores in order to differentiate between students coming from different schools. The results of this study even apply to competitive universities with <50% acceptance rates.

Moreover, an alternative would be to emphasize class rank for admissions decisions and forcing all schools to list the rank on applicants' transcripts. This compares the student to the rest of the student body in the school. Also, schools should send a profile that shows average GPA with SD, average SAT scores, and other important statistica information that would give universities a better idea about where the applicants are coming from, as well as what they are being compared to when ranked.

The opposition seems to think that the admissions procedures of prestigious universities (such as that of Harvard, which he used as an example) would not function properly without SAT scores. Bates, Muhlenberg, Bowdoin, Wake Forest, Mount Holyoke, and many other prestigious universities currently have an SAT optional policy, and they are still well-ranked in university rankings and have strong academic reputations.

"An easy temporary solution to that is to add 26 points to all of the female scores. Why? Because we can quantify the difference."

The exact difference is not the same every year, and the entire difference can not exclusively be explained by gender differences, though the general year-to-year trend does signify that gender bias is present. The solution proposed by the opposition is invalid.

The SAT fails to measure college preparedness accurately, since scores decrease due to minority status, low-income status, bilingual status, and being female. GPA, class rank, and rigor of classes are stronger determinants of whether or not a college applicant has the potential to be successful in college. This is verified by the results of the over 740 colleges who saw positive results with an SAT-optional policy.

The opponents refutations have been countered. Vote PRO.
bjrscj

Con

My opponent has done a fabulous job of pointing out the major flaws of the SAT. However, I must still disagree with the proposed solution of abolition. It seems that my opponent would agree with me as well. In the last post, my opponent stated, "Also, schools should send a profile that shows average GPA with SD, average SAT scores, and other important statistica information that would give universities a better idea about where the applicants are coming from, as well as what they are being compared to when ranked." That does not sound like abolition to me.

Before going any further, I would like to dispel the idea that I am advocating the distribution of points to females and minorities to offset the SAT scores. My point was simply that we can quantify SAT scores, and therefore we can see the gaps that exist. But again, I have to disagree with the conclusion that this means the SAT is what is flawed, and the SAT should therefore be abolished.

What my opponent does realize - that the SAT is big business - should focus some of his thinking here. In a capitalistic society, demand is generally needed for supply. There is a reason SAT's are demanded, and that is due first to the needs of colleges, and second to the failure of primary and secondary schools to produce what colleges are looking for. Is it true that minorities don't do as well on the SAT? Yes. But why? The test is simply designed to provide colleges with information they need to help indicate success, and it does just that. As I pointed out in my last post, SAT scores are falsely accused of being poor predictors of college success. However, these scores are only predictors as to the colleges in which the majority will be successful, it does not inter-rate those who attend particular colleges. Therefore, as an entrance criteria only, the SAT is successful [1]. Therefore, SAT's are accurate measures of what colleges are looking for. We cannot expect the SAT format to change until the collegiate structure and requirement changes.

Furthermore, primary and secondary schools are doing terrible jobs of training students. If the SAT is a measure of certain characteristics demanded by colleges, why aren't females and minorities trained just as well? Why does the burden fall solely on the SAT, an objective measure of aptitude? My opponent seems to think that primary and secondary schools have a fair curriculum and structure so that all races and genders get equal training. But this is not the case [2]. Teachers are even taught this as they obtain their undergraduate degrees. Educators know that the primary indicator of successful students is their socioeconomic status, even in the early primary years [2].

Part of this discrepancy is certainly the structure of schools. Children have different interests and learning styles, but schools typically cater to a narrow range of subjects and styles. However, this problem is greatly exacerbated by the way many schools are funded. During my undergraduate, our class watched a video of the Ohio school system. They showed schools ranging from one that had a hi-tech science and computer lab, to a school that had a dilapidated building and a coal furnace that plumed out clouds of smoke into the school. The nice school was of course in a rich, suburban, neighborhood, while the underprivileged school was in a poor area which also had more minorities. The culprit here wasn't SAT scores, it was school funding. Many schools are funded from real estate tax, which means that nicer neighborhoods will produce more taxes, and therefore better facilities as well as the ability to procure better teachers. This is just one of the many factors that goes into making minorities in particular highly susceptible to poor performance in school, as well as on SATs. But just as a physics test isn't flawed because a particular group fails it, so it is with the SAT. The SAT is meant to measure those who have certain abilities, and it's expected that those abilities were fostered by the system that is meant to produce college attendees. The problem does not necessarily lie in the test, but in the system.

My greatest fear is that my opponent oversimplifies the issue. By pointing to the SAT as the problem, he is overlooking the areas that truly need emendation. The SAT is simply a test to measure the products of the system. It measures what the college institutions are looking for, and what the secondary schools produce. If anything, the SAT, a quantifiable and objective test, has pointed out measurably what many do not want to see. Abolishing the SAT would keep the school systems as biased as they are now, but it would allow us to move on in blissful ignorance.

I would like to end by pointing out once again that schools are also producing varied results in their product, graduates. Someone who graduates in the top 25% of the class isn't really showing that much potential. But what if I told you that was a class of 24 at a private school? I suppose that would depend on what sort of private school it was. If it was college preparatory, then top 25% out of a small class is still very good. But if it were a more fundamentalist, backwoods school, even being the top student might not mean all that much. Even comparing public schools from different parts of a state or country can be difficult. As this article points out well [3], grades and accomplishments may look good on paper, but paper doesn't mean much. Schools have been dumbed down. Teachers can pass their kids in the class, but these kids can't fool objective, standardized measures and performance at the next level.

I strongly agree with my opponent that the SAT needs to be revised. We do need to look at whether or not timing should be involved, and we need to see if there are ways to re-write or administer the test for bilingual students (unless part of what the colleges want to measure is the ability to read books and pass classes in English), etc. However, my opponent gives no credit where credit is due. The SAT is an accurate measure for student success within a particular college, and it is a great insight to help develop the whole picture ofa n individual and their education. Should it be so heavily weighted? Perhaps not. But abolished? Certainly not! Without objective measures like the SAT, we would have less evidence to show the discrepancies among different races and genders that are being fostered and perpetuated both at the secondary level, and the university level. The SAT is one great means of measure and accountability, and should be used as one piece of evidence for both. It's dissolution would prove detrimental for the multitude of reasons I have mentioned above.

[1] http://abcnews.go.com...
[2] http://www.epi.org...
[3] http://209.189.226.235/stories/022307/schools_20070223038.php
Debate Round No. 3
InVinoVeritas

Pro

(Thank you to CON for pointing that out to me. "Also, schools should send a profile that shows average GPA with SD, average SAT scores, and other important statistica information..." should not include "SAT scores." That was an error, so let it be stricken from the record.)

Moreover, let it be known that evidence presented in the opponent's argument that is strictly anecdotal should be stricken from the record, because such evidence is unfounded and subjective.

"An easy temporary solution to that is to add 26 points to all of the female scores. Why? Because we can quantify the difference."
"Before going any further, I would like to dispel the idea that I am advocating the distribution of points to females and minorities to offset the SAT scores."
This is a contradiction. Which of these views does the opponent stand by? It is yet to be known.

The SAT is “designed to predict first-year college grades -- it is not validated to predict grades beyond the freshman year, graduation rates, pursuit of a graduate degree, or for placement or advising purposes. However, according to research done by the tests' manufacturers, class rank and/or high school grades are still both better predictors of college performance than the SAT I.”
[1] The SAT is not successful as "as an entrance criteria [sic]", and it does not effectively "indicate success"; moreover, nothing in your provided source indicates that these statements are true.

I agree with the opponent that training acquired by primary and secondary students is not equal. On the two extreme sides of the spectrum, there are some students who are taught in rundown farmhouses, and also there are students taught by Harvard-educated private tutors in their millon-dollar mansions. Let us also remember that a large portion of the underrepresented minority populatin is located in inner-city areas with egregious school systems. The SAT completely ignores the backgrounds of applicants and effectively separates applicants by their social and economic status. [2] The SAT attacks efforts to create diversity and fails to look at the academic potential of applicants holistically; it should therefore be abolished.

I completely agree with the opponent here that there are huge disparities (in regards to education quality) among schools. Minorities from poor areas face disadvantages, while upper-class white applicants face major disadvantages. I also do not doubt that this may be due to problems with adequate school funding. This, however, does not justify the implementation of the SAT. The SAT tests everyone as if all applicants' social and economic situations are the same, which does not reflect reality whatsoever. Regardless of the supply (or lack) of funding received by his or her respective school, each student is judged by the same standard on the SAT. The current SAT needs to be abolished.

Certainly, our system is flawed. Why, then, must we use an overly idealistic exam, such as the SAT, to measure the abilities of such a large number of people with different backgrounds and situations? Why must females, minorities, and bilingual applicants be adversely affected by a test that assumes that everyone's potential for college success should be judged by a single standard? According to the opponent's own source, the SAT is flawed and does not reflect the actual applicant pool. [3]

The SAT needs to be abolished. It is biased and separates applicants by social class and economic status more than it separates them by academic achievement. It is not an effective tool for testing students' potential in college, and it fails to account for the differences between the various populations taking the exam. Over 740 universities are test-optional, and the rest of US universities should follow suit. Through use of superior evidence, PRO is victorious.

Much thanks to the opponent for participating in the debate.

[1] http://www.fairtest.org...
[2] http://www.nytimes.com...
[3] http://abcnews.go.com...

bjrscj

Con

Defense of Opponent's Counterclaims:

1. While my opponent did not claim that I relied on anecdotal evidence, it certainly seems to be implied. There seems to be a poisoning of the well, in a certain sense, implanting this idea by its mere mention. While I certainly have included anecdotal evidence, this isn't simply casual observation. When your mechanic tells you what your car's problem is, doesn't his knowledge of his profession allow him a platform to provide insight?

But even if you denied me this, I supplied my opponent with particular evidence that supports what I, a professional in the field of education, observe myself [1]. Even a cursory search on Google using the terms "grade inflation" and "grade discrepencies" produces a plethora of data beyond what I have given. And as far as I can tell, the only area where I have provided anecdotal evidence is in the area of purported grade inflation. I think this claim was intended to undercut a solid argument by implanting doubt in readers where none should exist.

2. My opponent claims that I contradicted myself. Perhaps I was unclear, but I wasn't contradictory. My initial statement was not made to emphasize what should be done as a resolution, but what could be done. The whole point was that because SAT scores are in fact objective and quantifiable, you (key word) could come up with some sort of measurable "fix." That doesn't mean the test as a whole is measuring what it should ideally measure, but it does point out that the abolition of the test would leave one objectively blind.

3. My opponent also seems to think that I have failed to address the issue of bias inherent in the SAT. But I have to ask if my opponent is really advocating diversity for diversity's sake? The SAT is not the problem here. The SAT simply measures what colleges want and what schools produce. If someone is qualified to be a lawyer, as lawyers are defined and needed in the United States, they have to pass the bar exam. Is it unfair that I can't be a lawyer because I can't pass the test due to my lack of aspiration to be a lawyer? Is it my fault my family didn't instill in my that desire or that I couldn't afford law school? It's unfortunate, but I still have to pass the bar if I want to be a lawyer, because of what the institution considers professionalism in that field.

Now, I sympathize with the plight of the oppressed and the minorities in particular. I agree with my opponent that there is something wrong with a system that measures success and professionalism with such a narrow focus. It's unfortunate that the U.S. in particular is such a self-absorbed nation, that our English only policies prevent our appreciation of and facilitation of multilingual speakers. But this is not a problem with the SAT, it is a problem with the institutions. The SAT will change as the institutions do, which is what my opponent has been citing in his examples of Wake Forest University and other colleges. I think it's great that they are focusing on change. But does sch change really negate the need for objective measures like the SAT? Not at all.

Summary of Con:

1. Grade inflation exists [1]. While class rank may still show how good one is comparatively to others in a particular demographic of schools (i.e. suburban, urban, etc), evidence is clear that the quality of student understanding has gone down while grades have gone up. The SAT continues to be an objective means of measurement in an ever-changing school system.

2. Disparities in education abound from birth. Parents who read more to their children raise the chance of their child's success. Families who have a higher socioeconomic status increase their child's chances for success. Families living in nicer communities or who can afford private, college preparatory schools have an unparallelled advantage over the rank and file in society. Does anyone honestly think that the SAT is the problem here? The problem is people don't like what the evidence shows: a huge disparity and bias exist in our society. How do we know this? Because we have objective tests such as the SAT to measure that. Getting rid of the SAT will not cause colleges to lower their standards and magically allow the poor or unfortunate to com streaming into their doors. The problem is an institutional one, not a testing one. I appreciate my opponent's advocacy, but I think it is misguided.

3. Even if the SAT were on equal grounds with numerous other factors, it's objectivity should be treasured. Abolition is not the answer, but rather reform. Because the SAT is objective, we can revise it until we get it to measure what it should be measuring. While we could wait decades to see the graduation rates of minorities, why not get near immediate feedback so we can affect change now, rather than wait until our data will no longer tell us how to react in a socially relevant way?

4. My opponent rightly pointed out that some colleges have gone SAT optional. The problem is, my opponent would like to abolish the SAT without giving it the chance to compete. This is the perfect atmosphere to let the SAT prove itself. If it is accurate, it will survive. If it is not, colleges are businesses, and they will drop the SAT for its uselessness. But to outright abolish it would be to take a chance with the institution that most directly affects the prosperity of our nation. There is no need to abolish the SAT, as the SAT will dissolve itself if it is unworthy. If we reform the institution of education to reshape its goals and ideals, we just may see that happen. But until that time, the SAT will be a beacon that highlights the disparities that need to be highlighted.

5. Finally, my opponent has continued to state the validity of test scores in predicting student success. I have pointed out that this is not he case at all [2]. While it may appear to be as he states, he is not accounting for the grouping that occurs. For instance, if Harvard's average range of SAT scores is 1400-1600, these scores most likely come from non-minority backgrounds (as my opponent would point out their scores would average lower). These scores are indicative of majority, suburban, potentially private schooled kids.

What my opponent shows is that if we simply looked at the grades, these 1400-1600 kids would probably have "A's," which in his mind means that anyone with an "A" could survive at Harvard. But the "A" that correlates to a 1400-1600 on an SAT, representative of a child who went through college-prep school, is far different than an "A" from a kid who scores a 1000 in a coal burning, public school in downtown Cleavland. I highlighted this point in my last post when I referenced source [2] and their soccer team example, but I hope this has made it more clear.

Conclusion: The SAT is a valid means of measurement, and one of the only objective means whereby we can revise tests, institutions, and make informed decisions. The SAT helps to fight grade inflation, and it helps us to see areas that need reform within the school system. While the SAT does need to be revised along with the institutions it tests and tests for, one must realize that it is merely an evidence of a problem not inherent to the test, but to the educational institution. Therefore, while I agree with my opponent's criticism's of the SAT, this should be a call for evidential, guided reform, which is made possible by the SAT itself.

Thank you, Mestari, for your insight and passion for advocacy. I appreciate that, even in our disagreement

(I have added a new source for those interested, but please don't pursue it until after voting, as this would be unfair to my opponent. It's a good read if you're honestly interested in pursuing this issue).

[1] http://209.189.226.235/stories/022307/schools_20070223038.php
[2] http://abcnews.go.com...
[3]http://www.mindingthecampus.com...
Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by InVinoVeritas 5 years ago
InVinoVeritas
Unfortunately, no. :)
Posted by bjrscj 5 years ago
bjrscj
I didn't think it would matter since I was basically saying I agreed with you. I don't think I was advocating my side there, as it seems like that post would just hurt me, if anything. But I will refrain from that in the future. Thanks for the information. By the way, is there any way to delete these comments?
Posted by InVinoVeritas 5 years ago
InVinoVeritas
No worries about the Mestari thing...

For future reference, though, you should avoid putting debate-related stuff into the comments section, especially if it's because you ran out of space during a round. Some people will really jump on that and cite it as a violation that should impact votes. I'll let it slide 'cause you're a newbie... :) but, yeah, just for future reference.
Posted by bjrscj 5 years ago
bjrscj
I suck.

Sorry for all the posts, but I just realized I've been calling you "Mestari." I had a different debate going on and was looking at that name instead of yours. My apologies, InVinoVeritas.
Posted by bjrscj 5 years ago
bjrscj
If Shakespeare was right, and brevity is the measure of wit, then I'm pretty dim-witted. I didn't have enough characters to put a period at the end of my thanks to you.

Anyway, Mestari, I sympathize with you. I hate standardized testing, and it feels like it's just a big scam sometimes. While it is objective, they fail to realize they can't account for all the factors. For instance, when my students get tested in middle school, they know the tests don't really matter, so some "Christmas Tree" it. Others in my wife's school come from a homeless shelter, and they're running on an empty stomach, wondering how they're going to take care of their little sister.

My problem isn't so much with being measured, but with the ideals our society seems to uphold in those measures. Is my intellectual worth really defined by my ability to mathematically reason and verbalize things? Most of the hicks around here would have known better than to get us into this mess, like the bankers and big businessmen did to get us into this recession. I strongly sympathize with your side, but I just wanted to play the Devil's advocate here to figure out how I really feel.

Thanks again for the awesome dialogue.
Posted by bjrscj 5 years ago
bjrscj
Not a problem. I completely understand the business, especially this time of year. Regardless of if you post or not, I've had fun with the debate. I always enjoy hearing different points of view.
Posted by InVinoVeritas 5 years ago
InVinoVeritas
Hopefully I get to this within the time limit. Cramming for finals. :P
Posted by InVinoVeritas 5 years ago
InVinoVeritas
Sorry. Source sites for Argument 2:
http://fairtest.org...
http://www.ncpublicschools.org...
Posted by bjrscj 5 years ago
bjrscj
I forgot to post my link in the argument. Here it is: http://abcnews.go.com...
Posted by alto2osu 5 years ago
alto2osu
I r officially tempted to take this debate >.> If it's here tomorrow I might just have to.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
InVinoVeritasbjrscjTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro provided some fantastic arguments about the flaws of the SAT's (which were a pain in the *** to take) However Con's counter arguments showed that these flaws of these tests dont necessarily constitute their complete removal... sources were pretty decent on both sides, no name calling of any sort, speling was not a problem, very interesting debate.
Vote Placed by tudaloo 5 years ago
tudaloo
InVinoVeritasbjrscjTied
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Reasons for voting decision: Both Invinoverit and bjrscj did a very good job debating in my opinion. I sided with invio a little bit more on this issue but not to the point that invino fully convinced me.