The Instigator
RXR
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points
The Contender
Tminusfour20
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Abortion Debate

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
RXR
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/17/2015 Category: Economics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,195 times Debate No: 71841
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (1)

 

RXR

Con

Con: Against Abortion
Pro: For Abortion

My oppenent will go first and defend his views on abortion staying legal...

Tminusfour20

Pro

I look forward to this debate.

There are a few blurred lines when it comes to the topic of abortion primarily when the exact moment a fetus, becomes a "live human being".

A few points that I would like to throw out is that fetuses have no consciousness and do not feel pain prior to 20 weeks. I agree that a fetus should not be aborted late in it's development as it would be overall better to birth the child prematurely and out them up for adoption.

But, I will say that a fetus is not a functioning and productive member of society, it does not have a social security number nor can it survive on it's own without it's host. Not all these are needed to be considered human or even important at all but the difference that many forget to realize with abortion is the decision of the woman. Even animals are more beneficial to my life than unborn fetuses.

As a woman if I decide I do not wish to be pregnant, an unborn pre human with no consciousness opinion or even a thought in the world should have the ability to stop that. If a termination of the fetus results in her wishes to no longer be pregnant that is her complete choice.

If you were a leach and had the same level of functionality and consciousness as a fetus and you had to necessarily be attached to me to stay alive whether I put you there or not I have the right to remove you from the resource I call my body. It would make the same level of difference to you as if your future great great grand kids were to blow up spontaneously (pretty much no difference at all as you would be long dead and free of consciousness to perceive anything around you.)

Child sacrifice is incomparable and has roots in outlandish complex irrational belief systems. Those children were also alive independently and were functioning members of society. Name one entire culture that routinely sacrifices thier already born children in today's world. We are not still living in the middle ages.

Making this illegal wouldn't stop the act of abortion, it would just make it much harder for women with no other option to get one. It would force pregnant rape victims to suffer quietly or suffering mothers in deep poverty to find unsafe dangerous alternative options.

From an emotional perspective I get it but it isn't rational to cut off a very much needed procedure for millions of women around the world because you think it's wrong. You may never know their life or circumstances but if you are that avid about it, just privately refrain from aborting your own children and allow the rest of us to freely exercise our bodily rights.

Back to you
Debate Round No. 1
RXR

Con

Let's clear a few things, a fetus is a 'living human being' because it originally was created from human parents and we know it's alive because it is growing. If it was not alive, then an abortion is not neccasary. Also there are countless biologists that conclude that a fetus is the beginning of human life. For example, Keith L. Moore says in his book of embryology, quoted 'This fertilized ovum, known as a zygote, is a large diploid cell that is the beginning, or primordium, of a human being.'

Yes your correct on a fetus not having a consiousness or the ability of pain but does it make any less humane to kill them ? And by the way, if you can terminate a fetus for not having consiousness, can you terminate a person in a coma ? People in comas have no sense of there surroundings.

You say that animals are more beneficial than unborn human beings but animals will never benefit society by not having jobs or a family, mean while a fetus can have a job/family.

Yes it is true that making abortion illegal won't stop abortion but so is murder. Murder is illegal but some people still commit murder. And abortion and rape only effects about 0.05% people, that is a very small group of people. But even if a rape victim does an legal abortion she will suffer from depression and possibely commit suicide.

India and China still have a culture of female infanticide and kill their unborn female children. Just to name a few.
http://www.domesticviolenceservices.com...

Abortion is wrong because scientificaly a fetus is a human being and should recieve basic human rights and be protected. Abortion just discriminates the unborn and shows that human life is disposable just for a few hundred dollars. And it isn't your body, it just lives in it.


http://www.thefreedictionary.com...

Tminusfour20

Pro

"You say that animals are more beneficial than unborn human beings but animals will never benefit society by not having jobs or a family, mean while a fetus can have a job/family."

I currently have a guard dog at home who has both a family and a specific job within my household. Seeing eye dogs, police dogs, milk and beef cows provide resources to mothers with unborn babies so that isn't exactly true.

"India and China still have a culture of female infanticide and kill their unborn female children. Just to name a few."

Chinese infanticide and infanticide in no shape or form is acceptable. I honestly feel that every situation should be handled uniquely and it wouldn't be right to lump every single situation and scenario that may result in an abortion as wrong and inexcusable. China has over a billion while we are just over 300 million. Their population and resources have pushed them toward infanticide tendencies. Is it right? No, but that is not the picture if abortion that people in America hold.


"But even if a rape victim does an legal abortion she will suffer from depression and possibly commit suicide. "

I acknowledge your point that rape and abortion affects only a small percentage of Americans. The true question I have is how much do abortions effect Americans at all as a process. When a young woman decides to have an abortion for whatever reason how does that effect people? Her parents will be temporarily disappointed , the girl may be emotionally and physically scarred but it doesn't effect the community, 10 women in your neighborhood can have an abortion and it will never effect you as a person specifically or me or anyone outside of their personal circle. How many people do you personally know that have had abortions that have affected you and the community around them as a whole?


" if you can terminate a fetus for not having consciousness, can you terminate a person in a coma ?"

Coma patients brain dead patients and paralyzed patients can all get pregnant and conceive and give birth to a child. Pre humans have no attachment no connections outside of parents no impact on the world or anything or anyone. Like I said above all situations need to be judged uniquely before lumping in assisted death for coma and brain death patients as the significance of each is not universal.


"Abortion is wrong because scientifically a fetus is a human being and should receive basic human rights and be protected."

You are basically agreeing it is OK to violate the rights of independently living human beings to grant rights to pre-humans that require the body of another human being to survive. Basic human rights can be given to the unborn when they are a capable of doing basic human functions on their own without infringing upon the rights of the host.


Birth and human life is insanely persistent. There are more people being born than dying so literally 100s of babies can be born around the worlds in the time it takes one teen in Utah to get to the abortion clinic in her Honda. Human life is definitely precious, especially seeing how abundant it is around you and I whether we fight it or not it will persist till the end. Its like taking an option and right from everyone for the sake of a virtually insignificant event that happens plenty of times daily. The born will provide and compensate for the unborn as it always has and the only thing that the unborn will owe is gratitude.


Back to you !
Debate Round No. 2
RXR

Con

'I currently have a guard dog at home who has both a family and a specific job within my household. Seeing eye dogs, police dogs, milk and beef cows provide resources to mothers with unborn babies so that isn't '

Comparing cattle to a unborn human being is illogical, yes your right on cows providing milk and guard dogs provide protection. But a human life triumphs any animal. That unborn human could have impacted society in a helpful manner. Animals can easily be replaced while an unborn human can not.

'Chinese infanticide and infanticide in no shape or form is acceptable. I honestly feel that every situation should be handled uniquely and it wouldn't be right to lump every single situation and scenario that may result in an abortion as wrong and inexcusable. China has over a billion while we are just over 300 million. Their population and resources have pushed them toward infanticide tendencies. Is it right? No, but that is not the picture if abortion that people in America hold. '

Chinese infanticide is not acceptable because it kills born females and causes an unbalanced ratio between females and males currently living in China. There are better options and less violent ones than infantcide. Overpopulation is a problem but families don't have to resort to killing their own children just for being female.


'I acknowledge your point that rape and abortion affects only a small percentage of Americans. The true question I have is how much do abortions effect Americans at all as a process. When a young woman decides to have an abortion for whatever reason how does that effect people? Her parents will be temporarily disappointed , the girl may be emotionally and physically scarred but it doesn't effect the community, 10 women in your neighborhood can have an abortion and it will never effect you as a person specifically or me or anyone outside of their personal circle. How many people do you personally know that have had abortions that have affected you and the community around them as a whole? '

Abortion doesn't affect other people, it affects the fetus. Abortion discriminates the unborn and considers a fetus disposable human life. Abortion kills the most helpless and innocent human beings.

'You are basically agreeing it is OK to violate the rights of independently living human beings to grant rights to pre-humans that require the body of another human being to survive. Basic human rights can be given to the unborn when they are a capable of doing basic human functions on their own without infringing upon the rights of the host. '

Human life > Rights

'Coma patients brain dead patients and paralyzed patients can all get pregnant and conceive and give birth to a child. Pre humans have no attachment no connections outside of parents no impact on the world or anything or anyone. Like I said above all situations need to be judged uniquely before lumping in assisted death for coma and brain death patients as the significance of each is not universal.'

If you give it a chance it will impact the world. But abortion terminates the chance of a fetus having a chance at life.

In conclusion: Abortion kills unborn human beings and is discrimination. Thus should be abolished


Tminusfour20

Pro

"Comparing cattle to a unborn human being is illogical, yes your right on cows providing milk and guard dogs provide protection. But a human life triumphs any animal. That unborn human could have impacted society in a helpful manner. Animals can easily be replaced while an unborn human can not. "

It is illogical to compare a 35 year old man to an unborn fetus. An unborn human can be replaced once aborted by sex then following conception.

"Overpopulation is a problem but families don't have to resort to killing their own children just for being female."

If you read my point above I am not in support of Chinese infanticide or any infanticide but that and abortion are two different issues and we are talking about two entirely different cultures. Abortion is not a real issue in the life of Americans right now.

"Abortion doesn't affect other people, it affects the fetus. Abortion discriminates the unborn and considers a fetus disposable human life. Abortion kills the most helpless and innocent human beings. "

The fetus doesn't have the capacity to care or understand this concept as of yet. Abortion is to deal with a current existing issue. The life and concerns of a fetus are irrelevant and there is no way to say that a world without abortions would be definitely better than a world without one. The victim in this case is essentially unaware or unaffected by abortion its consciousness remains the same before and after the abortion. You are arguing from an emotional perspective when you and I will never be pregnant or women capable of giving an inside viewpoint.

"Human life > Rights"

Why not take away the rights of someone in a coma or brain dead and force them to be baby factories through artificial insemination then. both are equally important but there must be a balance.

"If you give it a chance it will impact the world. But abortion terminates the chance of a fetus having a chance at life."

There is no way to prove that all terminated fetuses would have indefinitely had a positive impact or any impact at all on the world. there have been millions of miscarriages and abortions throughout our histories timeliness and it was those that survived who impacted the world. There will be 1000s of births for every abortion I cannot describe to you how insignificant effect of terminating one pregnancy for a legitimate reason has on the world as a whole. That one baby who didn't make it will be surpassed by millions of babies who will as it has always been through evolutionary history.

Please give evidence of negative correlations with abortions and ....anything.


Debate Round No. 3
RXR

Con

'It is illogical to compare a 35 year old man to an unborn fetus. An unborn human can be replaced once aborted by sex then following conception. '

A fetus can't be replaced because it's own dna is unlike any other human being.

' If you read my point above I am not in support of Chinese infanticide or any infanticide but that and abortion are two different issues and we are talking about two entirely different cultures. Abortion is not a real issue in the life of Americans right now. '

But you just said 'Chinese infanticide and infanticide in no shape or form is acceptable.' which means you are in support of infantcide.

'There is no way to prove that all terminated fetuses would have indefinitely had a positive impact or any impact at all on the world. there have been millions of miscarriages and abortions throughout our histories timeliness and it was those that survived who impacted the world. There will be 1000s of births for every abortion I cannot describe to you how insignificant effect of terminating one pregnancy for a legitimate reason has on the world as a whole. That one baby who didn't make it will be surpassed by millions of babies who will as it has always been through evolutionary history. '

I never said that all fetuses will have some sort of positive impact for society. I said some of them.

'Why not take away the rights of someone in a coma or brain dead and force them to be baby factories through artificial insemination then. both are equally important but there must be a balance. '

Because you did not use their consent for using their reproductive organs. While when a woman who has sex chooses a chance to be pregnant. A person in a coma does not.

'Please give evidence of negative correlations with abortions and ....anything.'

depression, suicide, infertility, inflamation. etc. People who choose abortion have 10 times higher depression rate. and worst of all kills an unborn human being

Now answer my question, if a fetus is not a human being than what is it ?

Tminusfour20

Pro

"But you just said 'Chinese infanticide and infanticide in no shape or form is acceptable.' which means you are in support of infanticide"

If I say it is not acceptable in any shape or form how does that mean I support it?

"Because you did not use their consent for using their reproductive organs. While when a woman who has sex chooses a chance to be pregnant. A person in a coma does not."

Agreeing to have sex is not the same as agreeing to be pregnant, both are choices.

"depression, suicide, infertility, inflammation. etc. People who choose abortion have 10 times higher depression rate. and worst of all kills an unborn human being"

I agree those are potential impacts that abortion can have on an individual but again that doesn't effect society as a whole. Abortions do not increase the risk of depression, suicide,and inflammation for an entire community only for the individual that CHOOSES that option for themselves.


I will answer your question with this question. If I give you an egg to eat for breakfast, will you then say to someone else I gave you chicken for breakfast? 2 different categories of the same kind. They need to be dealt with uniquely.
Debate Round No. 4
RXR

Con

If I say it is not acceptable in any shape or form how does that mean I support it?

'infanticide in no shape or form is acceptable' <--- that means you do support it. I don't know if it is a typo or not.

'I agree those are potential impacts that abortion can have on an individual but again that doesn't effect society as a whole. Abortions do not increase the risk of depression, suicide,and inflammation for an entire community only for the individual that CHOOSES that option for themselves. '

It doesn't need to affect whole communities to be dangerous. Abortion is not only harmful to the fetus, it is also harmful to women's physical and mental image

-http://www.rachelsvineyard.org...

-http://www.afterabortion.com...

'I will answer your question with this question. If I give you an egg to eat for breakfast, will you then say to someone else I gave you chicken for breakfast? 2 different categories of the same kind. They need to be dealt with uniquely.'

A chicken and a fetus are both different species, so you can't make an analogy of the two
Tminusfour20

Pro

The first article is a religious publication from 1994. When they created the manual vacuum and chemical abortion methods that people in 21st century medicine actually use. These new methods are also safer for the mother and painless for the fetus. I know women who are virtually unaffected by having an abortion done as well as women who were saddened by it but as I've stated before women's physical and mental image is not guaranteed to be altered by abortion. It is more of a side effect of abortion than a guaranteed symptom of post abortion.


Fetuses and humans are in two different categories as eggs and chickens are. One comes as a result of the other and must be treated that way.

Conclusion: Abortion is not a legitimate societal issue. Our culture has the resources and options to deal with pregnancy as well as the termination of a pregnancy. The vast majority typically go unaffected by abortion. Fetuses are effected but subsequently, that effect on fetuses does not result in an effect on us. It is a woman's choice to terminate her pregnancy even if that results in the loss of a fetus, that is her right. A woman that decides to choose abortion, accepts the potential risks and side effects that come with it just like any other medical procedure. Human life rapidly persists with thousands of births for every abortion, making a legitimate termination of one pregnancy insignificant in the light of the millions that continuously occur.

I conclude that my opponent and I will never be pregnant or ever know the pressure placed on a pregnant woman when dealing the option of abortion giving us no right to judge their situation.


Vote Pro. Keep Abortion Legal.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by kingkd 2 years ago
kingkd
Love the good conduct in the debate. Con won that the fetus is a human being, though.
Posted by Tminusfour20 2 years ago
Tminusfour20
@Daniel_Nemes you have no knowledge of every single scenario so how can you take away every single option for everyone? who do you think you are to tell me people what options they have for their body? Just cuz it makes you feel bad even though it will never ever in your life effect you unless you are personally part of an abortion decision. Stop taking away the rights of women for the sake of your own personal beliefs as they are not that important.
Posted by Daniel_Nemes 2 years ago
Daniel_Nemes
Ha ha! "Vote Pro. Keep abortion legal." = "Vote for me. Keep the mass killing of humans legal." Disgusting.
Posted by RXR 2 years ago
RXR
@indianafrank Abortion is purely an ethical issue and just because your pro-life that doesn't mean i have to adopt an orphan.
Posted by Tminusfour20 2 years ago
Tminusfour20
@IndianaFrank I agree with your point about abandoned children in state care and how most of the religious almost never adopt. But I will give @rxr the benefit of the doubt that his views on abortion don't only have religious roots.
Posted by IndianaFrank 2 years ago
IndianaFrank
Abortion is a religious issue, and not a political one. To make them illegal is to FORCE your religious beliefs one everyone. Besides your side always thinks its better to place children into state custody, but somehow none of you ever want to adopt those abandoned children....
Posted by RXR 2 years ago
RXR
The Mayans used to sacrifice their children to the gods.
Modern day society now kill their unborn for convienent reason.
So we are still stuck in the middle ages.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Daniel_Nemes 2 years ago
Daniel_Nemes
RXRTminusfour20Tied
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Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: Con countered Pro's arguments well and efficiently. The problem with this debate is the pure truism to it. Abortion is bad and abortion denies the rights to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness.