The Instigator
WisenessNotWithAge
Con (against)
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0 Points
The Contender
BossAtheism
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Abortion Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/19/2015 Category: Philosophy
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,582 times Debate No: 72026
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (25)
Votes (0)

 

WisenessNotWithAge

Con

Abortion is a hot topic in modern society. I know many people may view it as a political question, but I see it as a philosophical one; is an unborn baby a human? Do they have rights? I say yes, so I'm pro-life and I consider myself a libertarian AKA pro same-sex marriage, weed legalization, small government etc. Honestly though this is a different issue it isn't you you're affecting it's someone with a future that you are cutting off before it even can happen. It's murder. Honestly I'm not even happy to have abortion in cases of rape, but I think it is necessary. Seriously, abortion can be prevented especially with all of the forms of birth control available today.
BossAtheism

Pro

is an unborn baby a human?
The fetus is genetically homo-sapien. That is a fact. So Yes the Fetus is a human.

Do they have rights?
Whether the Fetus has rights which for the sake of argument i will agree to. Does not matter. Because one right the Fetus does not have the right to. Is use someone else's body to survive.

Bottom line. Women have the undeniable right to control their own body. To say a women must be forced to give up her body to let the fetus survive is similar to saying I should be forced to give my Kidney to my dying child if I'm the only one viable to do the operation. No one should be legally forced to use their body's to ensure the survival of another person or fetus in this case.

It is not murder. Let me ask you this question. If someone pulls the life support plug on someone. Did they murder them?
No. They simply let them die.

One more thing. You are not okay with Abortion even in the case of Rape? Can you defend that more? That's a very daring thing of you to say.
Debate Round No. 1
WisenessNotWithAge

Con

What you've said is essentially that the fetus has rights, and is human correct? Just by admitting that you've proven the fatal flaw in all "Pro-Choice" arguments. You have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. These, according to the Declaration of Independence are UNALIENABLE rights, which under no circumstances can be violated.

Let's break that down:

Life: Literally the namesake of the pro-life movement, this shouldn't need explaining, but just by listening to the people that founded this country you have acknowledged the unborn's right to life.

Liberty: Here's where you may say, "Gotcha women have liberty so they can do what they want with their own body!". Wrong. Here's why, let's say you straight up shoot someone, okay? Is that expressing your right to liberty? No? Why? Because it violates a law? Because you infringed someone else's right to liberty? It is easy for you to accept this as not being liberty, so then why is killing an unborn child any different? Women and men need to be responsible while having sex so abortions never have to happen in the first place. That is the choice women have. Taking a life because you messed up is selfish. The "I can do whatever I want with my body" thing is a lie anyways, suicide is illegal, cocaine is illegal, crack is illegal, meth is illegal, and why? It's because they harm you, right? Then why isn't that ever put under the "I can do whatever I want with my body" argument ever? It's because it's simply wrong to do those things. Also if women can do whatever they want because it's their body, than why do they have to go to clinics to abort the fetus? I thought they could do what THEY want to their body, how does this hold up when you realize it's not even them doing it it's a "doctor"?

The Pursuit of Happiness: This somewhat ties in to what I previously stated, because as the unborn child how would you ever pursue happiness without being born?

And also abortion in the cases of rape, I feel that it is still morally wrong to have abortion in these cases, because you're not killing anyone lesser than in other abortion cases. What's different about these cases is that women really never did get to choose to have this child. That's why in these cases I think abortion is okay, because the woman honestly never had the choice.
BossAtheism

Pro

Okay you said alot of things wrong so let me address all of them.

No we dont have the right to shoot someone because that is called murder and its against the law.
I have already explained to you that you are not killing the unborn fetus.
Suicide is not illegal. There is no point in making a law against suicide because the person that does it would be dead. I believe you are referring to physician assisted suicide. Which is illegal in many states for many reasons.
And you bring up these drugs being illegal is a bad argument when you are talking to me. Because I think that every drug should be legal. So I disagree with the law on that standpoint.

And if a women really wanted to. She can stick a coat hanger up her uterus and kill the fetus like whats been done for decades. You realize that their are pills for abortion? The first 9 weeks? So a physician wouldn't be necessary for many of these cases.

You keep bring up these rights. The fetus does not have the right to use the women's body without her consent. And the women has the right to do what she wishes with her body.

And as for your last paragraph. I'm a little tired right now so perhaps I am misinterpreting in which case I apologize. But you begin by saying its wrong and then last sentence you say you think abortion is okay? Which one is it?
Debate Round No. 2
WisenessNotWithAge

Con

I'll start out by saying I was mistaken in assuming it was illegal to commit suicide because when you attempt it, police come and have you psychologically evaluated and if they think you'll attempt it again they may hold you.

Secondly in your first statement you said:
"Do they have rights?
Whether the Fetus has rights which for the sake of argument i will agree to. Does not matter."

and

"You keep bring up these rights. The fetus does not have the right to use the women's body without her consent. And the women has the right to do what she wishes with her body."

These are conflicting because you literally said the opposite of what you originally said. Not to mention the women's "consent" argument which is completely wrong since humans are biologically wired to reproduce. One thing you are missing is that women and men HAD the choice unprotected sex is how you have children. You don't have to have unprotected sex you CHOOSE to, there's the choice once you involve the life of an unborn child the choice is gone you are literally killing a human. Do you believe in equal rights? All humans are equal. As you said in your first argument "is an unborn baby a human?The fetus is genetically homo-sapien. That is a fact. So Yes the Fetus is a human." So what you're saying is that a fetus is lesser and because it can't think for itself it can be killed.

Also these rights are UNALIENABLE meaning there is no way under US law that these can be taken away, so why does that not apply here to you? Is it because the mother is more important than the fetus because she has had years (which by the way she wouldn't have, had she been aborted) to grow up?

Humans weren't biologically engineered to have their young killed that shouldn't even be choice. Point is once you involve the life of another human the liberty isn't yours anymore.

Now to clarify my statement I was saying in cases of rape where the women honestly had no consent THEN abortion is necessary, in all other cases it is wrong, even in that case it is wrong, but we need it in cases of rape only. That is the only situation where I understand how abortion is a viable option. Abortion is wrong.
BossAtheism

Pro

Correction noted.

Nothing I said was contradictory. If the fetus has rights, that is regardless to the fact that the fetus does not have the right to use another womens body without her consent.

Please tell me how because humans reproduce, therefore a women does not have the rights to her own body?

Okay lots of things i have to address in this paragraph.
The women and man had the choice on unprotected sex. Even if this is true and correct, It does not matter. The women has the right to her own body. And being pregnant does not all of a sudden make you lose your bodily rights.
I agree. That All humans are equal. We actually agree here. Every human has certain rights, and every human does not have certain rights. One of these rights all humans dont have, is living off another persons body without consent.

The rest of your paragraphs are mostly saying the same thing, in which i give the same reply. Women have the rights to their own body. No one should be legally forced to use their body's to ensure the survival of another person or fetus in this case.
Debate Round No. 3
25 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Mathgeekjoe 2 years ago
Mathgeekjoe
Still you fail to prove your claim "Daniel, Some states do not think that it is a HUMAN until a certain amount of months, Thus during the time of months that the state chooses that HUMAN is not a human inside her body, legally. I only wish to say this because you should think more before you speak."

All you have proven is that there are time frames to when you legally can have an abortion, none of which say anything about whether or not it is a human.
In the link you gave about Indiana's laws
"designee may be contacted on a twenty-four (24) hour a day, seven (7) day a week basis.
(B) That follow-up care by the physician or the physician's designee (if the designee is licensed under IC 25-22.5) and is available on an appropriate and timely basis when clinically necessary.
(C) The nature of the proposed procedure or information concerning the abortion inducing drug.
(D) Objective scientific information of the risks of and alternatives to the procedure or the use of an abortion inducing drug, including:
(i) the risk of infection and hemorrhage;
(ii) the potential danger to a subsequent pregnancy; and
(iii) the potential danger of infertility.
(E) That human physical life begins when a human ovum is fertilized by a human sperm."
Read line E.

On top of that you fail to realize the difference between human and person. All acts of killing a person is homicide. Not all acts of killing a human is homicide such as in abortions when the fetus is not considered a person. On top of that, there is legal homicide which can occur in self defense and in abortions of a fetus that is considered a person.
Posted by anna_sun5the2 2 years ago
anna_sun5the2
If you look there is a certien amount of weeks attached to each legal way in abortion thus within those imd periods the fetus is seen as not being human being, sorry for not spelling it out for you the first time in bold print. So heres another site where you will not have to use deductive reasoning.

The term fetal rights came into wide usage following the landmark 1973 Abortion case roe v. wade, 410 U.S. 113, 93 S. Ct. 705, 35 L. Ed. 2d 147. In that case, the Supreme Court ruled that a woman has a constitutionally guaranteed unqualified right to abortion in the first trimester of her pregnancy. She also has a right to terminate a pregnancy in the second trimester, although the state may limit that right when the procedure poses a health risk to the mother that is greater than the risk of carrying the fetus to term. In making its decision, the Court ruled that a fetus is not a person under the terms of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. However, the Court also maintained that the state has an interest in protecting the life of a fetus after viability"that is, after the point at which the fetus is capable of living outside the womb. As a result, states were permitted to outlaw abortion in the third trimester of pregnancy except when the procedure is necessary to preserve the life of the mother.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com...
Posted by Mathgeekjoe 2 years ago
Mathgeekjoe
@anna_sun5the2

I still don't see anything there that says anything about something being legally human.
Your post fails to prove your claim
"Daniel, Some states do not think that it is a HUMAN until a certain amount of months, Thus during the time of months that the state choses that HUMAN is not a human inside her body, legally. I only wish to say this because you should think more before you speak."
Posted by Mathgeekjoe 2 years ago
Mathgeekjoe
@BossAtheism

There is a big difference between an unplugging of life support and late term abortion.
Last time I check when someone unplugs life support, they do not:
Suck you through a tube that rips you apart
Rip you apart with forceps
Burn you alive with a saline solution

Just saying, those seem to be a bit more than pulling out the plug.
Posted by anna_sun5the2 2 years ago
anna_sun5the2
Required circumstances of legal abortion
Sec. 1. (a) Abortion shall in all instances be a criminal act, except when performed under the following circumstances:
(1) During the first trimester of pregnancy for reasons based upon the professional, medical judgment of the pregnant woman's physician if:
(A) the abortion is performed by the physician;
(B) the woman submitting to the abortion has filed her consent with her physician. However, if in the judgment of the physician the abortion is necessary to preserve the life of the woman, her consent is not required; and
(C) the woman submitting to the abortion has filed with her physician the written consent of her parent or legal guardian if required under section 4 of this chapter.
However, an abortion inducing drug may not be dispensed, prescribed, administered, or otherwise given to a pregnant woman after nine (9) weeks of postfertilization age unless the Food and Drug Administration has approved the abortion inducing drug to be used for abortions later than nine (9) weeks of postfertilization age. A physician shall examine a pregnant woman in person before prescribing or dispensing an abortion inducing drug. As used in this subdivision, "in person" does not include the use of telehealth or telemedicine services.
(2) For an abortion performed by a surgical procedure, after the first trimester of pregnancy and before the earlier of viability of the fetus or twenty (20) weeks of postfertilization age, for reasons based upon the professional, medical judgment of the pregnant woman's physician if:
(A) all the circumstances and provisions required for legal abortion during the first trimester are present and adhered to; and
(B) the abortion is performed in a hospital or ambulatory
This is the first section of the site I posted discussing the requirements with the amount of time the impregnated woman must go through with the abortion
Posted by Mathgeekjoe 2 years ago
Mathgeekjoe
I went to your link, and did not find anything to support your claim of "Some states do not think that it is a human until a certain amount of months."

I did find in the link you provided "(E) That human physical life begins when a human ovum is fertilized by a human sperm."

So where in that link did the Indiana claim that it is not legally human til a certain amount of months, I am going to need your help finding that part, what line did you find that on?
Posted by anna_sun5the2 2 years ago
anna_sun5the2
@mathgeekjoe
I went to the sites you listed and I would like to start with the fact that two of the sites are written by the same ( David C. Reardon ), both discussing the issue of rape. In my case being a woman I know I strongly disagree with what he was saying but I did look into one of his sources and found it to be legit, yet I still disagree with him ( that all woman feel that they would keep the child ). Although I did not take the time to look at www.lifenews.com or even felt the need to since its lifenews.com.
To expand on the post fertilization age within different states please visit this site http://www.in.gov... , it is Indiana's circumstances of a legal abortion
I do not feel like you understood me and hope this helps
Posted by WisenessNotWithAge 2 years ago
WisenessNotWithAge
Thanks MathGeekJoe, and also to address Anna's feelings about abortion in the case of sexual assault please read the arguments for my thoughts. I account for those cases by saying I'm ok with it then and then only.

By the way, I think that your argument about it not being a child, is wrong BossAtheism. Let's take a plant for example when it's a seed (sperm/egg) It's classified differently, next it's a sprout, but we don't deny the fact that the sprout is a plant, it's just developing, and we give it a different name for that reason. When it's a full plant we still call it a plant (species) or maybe a flower (life stage) or maybe Sunflower (name).
Posted by Mathgeekjoe 2 years ago
Mathgeekjoe
@BossAtheism

"Once again its not a child. Its a fetus. I have already many times addressed how its not murder. Its not even close to murder."

Definition of murder as a verb, definition 3. "To put an end to; destroy" Clearly abortion can be considered murder.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com...
Definition of child, definition 4. "A son or daughter; an offspring." Clearly an fetus is a child.
Posted by Mathgeekjoe 2 years ago
Mathgeekjoe
@anna_sun5the2

"Some states do not think that it is a human until a certain amount of months." This statement is false.
It isn't about whether the fetus is a human, it is about whether it is a person.

And with your comment of rape and sexual assault. Just click these links and read.
http://www.abortionfacts.com...
http://www.lifenews.com...
http://afterabortion.org...
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