The Instigator
atheistman
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
James.ticknor
Con (against)
Winning
22 Points

Abortion Should Remain Legal

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
James.ticknor
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/13/2009 Category: Politics
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,833 times Debate No: 8619
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (16)
Votes (5)

 

atheistman

Pro

Abortion should remain legal, because it's the right for a women to do what she wants to her own body because of either unplanned pregnancy, deformed baby, or the possibility of harm to the woman from the pregnancy. I also think that the Freedom of Choice Act should be signed.
James.ticknor

Con

I wish you luck.

Observation 1: The resolution states that it should remain legal. So, if I can find one reason for it to become illegal, I should win this debate.



You say: "It's the right for a women to do what she wants to her own body because of either unplanned pregnancy, deformed baby, or the possibility of harm to the woman from the pregnancy."

I say: Abortion is not about the woman's own body, it's about the baby's body. Unplanned pregnancy can be prevented through condoms, birth control, etc. So there is no need to abort the fetus because of that. A baby's deformation can not be determined as it is still developing, because it isn't complete. Like a piece of art. If it is possible to harm the woman, it wouldn't happen until it is time for it to be born. Have you ever heard a natural birth? It is very loud, and always painful. If it is life-threatening, they can have a cesarion section (C-section).

Since I have the burdon of clash, and my opponent the burdon of proof, I do not need to present any points.

Again, good luck.
Debate Round No. 1
atheistman

Pro

Thank you for responding, you mentioned that condoms and other birth control will stop a baby from being conceived, but that is not always true. Condoms and the pill aren't 100% effective, and the people could have unprotected sex because of being drunk, it just happened all at once, or ignorant of sexual education. The woman also could have been raped. If a baby is deformed, then it is possible to detect later on in pregnancy, and an abortion would be a very moral thing to do in that case. Abortion also does good because it brings the population under control, and lets people plan out their lives better. You mentioned that it was the baby's body that is the issue. What's wrong with that, is that the fetus is still part of the woman's body until birth. Also, the fetus isn't considered a person until it is formed enough. Conception is only a cluster of cells. A logical answer of when a fetus is formed enough to be considered a person is when the fetus can survive outside of the body. There could also be other ways a pregnancy could be a risk to a woman's health, which a C Section would not solve.
James.ticknor

Con

You said, "Condoms and the pill aren't 100% effective, and the people could have unprotected sex because of being drunk, it just happened all at once, or ignorant of sexual education."

I say: Condom and birth control are not 100% effective. However, you can get fixed. If done properly, it is 100% effective. For being drunk, the sexual partner is raping the drunken person, since you can not legally give consent when under the influence. For being ignorant, you should know about sex before you...do it. Also I'd think most people know if they may have a baby.

You say, "The woman also could have been raped."

I say: There is currently a woman activist, whose name escapes me at the moment, who attends schools in West Virgina, speaking out agenst abortions. Her mother was raped, and her child is leading a successful life. Her mother stated that she couldn't have been prouder of her daughter. We have to give the child a chance to live.

You say, "If a baby is deformed, then it is possible to detect later on in pregnancy, and an abortion would be a very moral thing to do in that case."

I say: It is possible to recover from a deformity. We are not talking about a common case though. Even so, if a deformity is what is the sole reason for abortion, I don't see how that is "very moral".

You say, "Abortion also does good because it brings the population under control, and lets people plan out their lives better."

I say: We could pass laws through reformation stating you must be fixed after a certain number of children. There's no need to kill them. While it may help keeping population under control, there is no need to have abortion after abortion. Sometimes, people do it wrong and hurt themselves and the baby. As for planning out your life, that's hard to do anyways. Because, like an unexpected baby, life throws other unexpected things at you. Who's to say that the abortion will not cause prolonged emotional trauma? It's happened,

You say, "What's wrong with that, is that the fetus is still part of the woman's body until birth. Also, the fetus isn't considered a person until it is formed enough. Conception is only a cluster of cells."

I say: You're just a cluster of cells. I can't kill you. Besides, if it has the chance to grow up, it likely will. That is a matter of perception whether or not it is a person.

You say, "A logical answer of when a fetus is formed enough to be considered a person is when the fetus can survive outside of the body."

I say: Sure that's logical, but it's not practical. I conducted a survey at my school, and projected that 78% of the students thought it was a person. This is effective, because many abortions are with unplanned teen pregnancy.

You say, "There could also be other ways a pregnancy could be a risk to a woman's health, which a C Section would not solve."

I say: I'm not saying that a C-section is the solution for everything. If there is a rare case where that happens, we have to consider the lesser of the two evils. Allowing a woman to die, or the baby. That choice should be up to the mother, and if abortion happens in that case, then it is to save a life, not to destroy it.

I wish you luck.
Debate Round No. 2
atheistman

Pro

Even if condoms and birth control are used properly, there is still a chance that one little sperm could slip by. There is about a 97% chance success rate of birth control, not 100%. If one or both people are drunk, it is technically not rape, it's just a bad decision. Giving one example of a woman who was raped who's still against abortion is not enough. Even if the majority of rape victims are anti-choice, then there are still going to be rape victims who don't want to carry around the seed of a rapist in them for 9 months and don't want that baby as a constant reminder of the incident and that the baby has a rapist's genes. Aborting rape victims' fetuses would reduce the future rapist population, because the genes would not be passed down. It doesn't matter if a rarity occurs that a deformed baby recovers from it's deformity, it should be the woman's choice whether of not she aborts it or not. I mentioned that it was "very moral" because you would be aborting a fetus instead of forcing it to cope with living every day with his/her deformity. Abortion can also be used for good because each fetus contains embryonic stem cells, which would provide great advancements in medicine. The bigger emotional trauma would be a kid finding out the he/she was an accident. Also, parents would probably love their child less he he/she was an accident. A fixed number of kids is not a good solution, because some people can't afford to even pay for one kid. The only reason abortion could be an emotional trauma is because of all the negative feeling made by the media, and very religious people. If abortion weren't seen as something to be ashamed of, then there would be less reason for it to be an emotional trauma. A human is capable of thinking, feeling pain, showing emotions, being aware of what's going on, and having relationships with other people. A fetus, on the other hand, is a pre-developed, cluster of cells that is unable to survive on it's own. In conclusion, I think that sexual education programs that teach the real facts would bring down the number of abortions needed in society. But if a woman gets pregnant for whatever reason and doesn't want the baby, then she should have every right to abort it.
James.ticknor

Con

PRO's REBUTTALS

1)Even if condoms and birth control are used properly, there is still a chance that one little sperm could slip by. There is about a 97% chance success rate of birth control, not 100%.

a) If you're that worried about it then get "fixed". By that I mean fertile. If done correctly, THAT is a 100% way. If you're that scared of it, just don't have sex at all. Sex is a risk. STD's, pregnancy- when you take that penis or vagina and have intercourse, then you accept those risks!

2) If one or both people are drunk, it is technically not rape, it's just a bad decision.

a) YES IT IS! Because the person drunk can not LEGALLY consent! Their judgement is impared.

3) "Giving one example of a woman who was raped who's still against abortion is not enough."

a) Look her and her daughter in the eye and tell her that she should have been aborted. Go agenst everything she believes in and centered her life around. I can't give a million examples, but if I can supply just one example, then there is the possibility of more.

4) Even if the majority of rape victims are anti-choice

a) If you're raped, you have no choice. It's not a majority decision.

5) Then there are still going to be rape victims who don't want to carry around the seed of a rapist in them for 9 months and don't want that baby as a constant reminder of the incident and that the baby has a rapist's genes.

a) You're assuming it is women who are always raped. That's not true. Rape causes emotional trauma and increses the likelyhood of mental disorders. They do not have the mental capacity to make that decision anyways. We should wait to see after a few years of therapy if she still wants too. Wait, a baby would likely be born, wouldn't there? Huh...

6) Aborting rape victims' fetuses would reduce the future rapist population, because the genes would not be passed down.

a) Rape is a decision, not an inherant trait.

7) It doesn't matter if a rarity occurs that a deformed baby recovers from it's deformity, it should be the woman's choice whether of not she aborts it or not.

a) You are insinuating that the baby will be born with the deformity...alive. If the baby is deformed, but can still live, shouldn't we let it decide?

8) I mentioned that it was "very moral" because you would be aborting a fetus instead of forcing it to cope with living every day with his/her deformity.

a) What's it coping for? We all risk ridicule by others by living, but I wasn't aborted to save me the pain and anguish of life, that's a part of living.

9)Abortion can also be used for good because each fetus contains embryonic stem cells, which would provide great advancements in medicine.

a) Good point. But I think that letting those cells build a new life is more important than enhancing another.

10) The bigger emotional trauma would be a kid finding out the he/she was an accident.

a) You don't know that. They could love the fact they were an unplanned gift. That activist I spoke of earlier was.

11) Also, parents would probably love their child less he he/she was an accident

a) You're mistaking probability as certainty. The activists mom loves her kid.

12) A fixed number of kids is not a good solution.

a) By aborting, you are controlling the population, fixing it to a certain number. You said that a fixed number of kids is a bad thing. You contradict yourself.

13) The only reason abortion could be an emotional trauma is because of all the negative feeling made by the media, and very religious people.

a) Not really, it could conflict with the persons own, individual morals. Like the Sanctity of Life.

14) If abortion weren't seen as something to be ashamed of, then there would be less reason for it to be an emotional trauma.

a) I don't view it like that, and I've been told that. I've also been told there is nothing wrong with it by medical professionals. I made my own opinion and judgement and others do too. Or else there would be just one opinion, but there isn't.

15) A human is capable of thinking, feeling pain, showing emotions, being aware of what's going on, and having relationships with other people. A fetus, on the other hand, is a pre-developed, cluster of cells that is unable to survive on it's own.

a) Babies can't survive on their own. Should we kill them? (That's sick, I kind of feel bad for that one.) The cells are multiplying to create a being that can survive, however abortion robs them of that chance.

16) In conclusion, I think that sexual education programs that teach the real facts would bring down the number of abortions needed in society.

a) How, in the name of God, did you jump from all that to sex ed? You didn't even mention it!

----<_______>-----
My opponent's arguement is cetered around the fact that abortion should remian legal, becuase it isn't a real person. Well, let's wait and see if it turns out to be a real person. If it dies, great, no abortion. But if it does, wouldn't you feel crummy for wanting to abort a fetus that developed into a human? You'd feel this small

-

on a scale this large

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I can't speak for you, but I would.

It's been a great debate. Good luck.
Debate Round No. 3
16 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by atheistman 7 years ago
atheistman
http://www.capitalism.org...
Read this web page, it clearly lays out why abortion should remain legal.
Posted by atheistman 7 years ago
atheistman
I am pro-choice, I don't think there should be any law forcing anyone to have an abortion, but I don't think there should be any laws preventing anyone from getting an abortion.
Posted by ccstate4peat 7 years ago
ccstate4peat
atheistman, on your profile it says that you are pro abortion. After reading this debate I thought you were pro-choice but apparently you are pro-unborn slaughter.
Posted by atheistman 7 years ago
atheistman
What, you think teens and kids have the exact same rights as adults? Teens can't note, serve in the military, drink, buy cigarettes, watch movies and videos that contain certain content, among many other things. Kids can't drive, watch even less movies/videos containing inappropriate content, among a lot of other rights. If you're high up in politics, you even have rights to have some control of your state/country.
Posted by InquireTruth 7 years ago
InquireTruth
What is your measurement of rights? How is it binding or objective? How do you come to determine that adults "deserve" more rights or rights at all? Assertions without evidence will never be accepted as substantive.
Posted by James.ticknor 7 years ago
James.ticknor
Actually, we are all granted the same rights. However, I do see your point. A fetus is not born yet, so it is not a citizen of the US and is not protected by it's laws.
Posted by James.ticknor 7 years ago
James.ticknor
Ah, I see now.
Posted by atheistman 7 years ago
atheistman
Another statement I'd like to make, the unborn don't have rights. Adults higher up in politics/business have the most rights. Adults with lower on the scale jobs have less rights. Teenagers have less rights than that. Kids have even less rights. Babies have barely any rights. Why should something less than a baby have equal rights to the baby? Rights of the unborn is a stupid concept, and is only taking the freedom from the adults who deserve it.
Posted by atheistman 7 years ago
atheistman
James.ticknor, you misunderstood my quote "even if most rape victims are anti-choice" that meant Even if most rape victims are against abortion
Posted by James.ticknor 7 years ago
James.ticknor
To answer Atheistman's first comment, I think it's conditional. And I can conditionally agree with you.
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Vote Placed by atheistman 7 years ago
atheistman
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