The Instigator
CharmanderAttak
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
abyteofbrain
Con (against)
Winning
4 Points

Abortion Should be Legal

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
abyteofbrain
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 11/11/2013 Category: Health
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 681 times Debate No: 40363
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

CharmanderAttak

Pro

This argument is to be made without god.
Abortion has been around long before conventional medicine, by restricting women the right to have an abortion, they will revert back to these dangerous methods that will either disfigure the fetus, kill it, or kill the mother. By allowing women access to contraceptives and abortions, the number of abortions would both decrease, and the ones that exist will be much safer.
Having an abortion will lead to a greater quality in life for both the mother and the child she may have later on. Saying that the fetus should be carried to term and given up for adoption, is not the best option. It puts more pressure on the foster care system and it is a hard decision to make.
abyteofbrain

Con

First, I think that it needs to be recognized, that the main question is weather or not "humans" are always "people", meaning that fetuses and mentally/physically disabled humans have the right to be treated as a person by law. This assumes that we agree that murder is wrong, and defined as "a person killing an innocent person".

So first of all, why is a fetus not considered a person? The differences are: time alive, location, physical development/ability, and mental development/ability. I think that the last two are probably what you consider to be the determining factors. Correct me if I'm wrong. So if a fetus were to be born, but ceased to develop, wouldn't it always be ok to kill it under your point of view? What about if I were to cut off all of your limbs, eyes, tongue, and puncture your eardrums (pardon the gore), would that make you a non-person?

The line for acceptable abortion is frequently drawn when the baby can survive without the mother. This line makes no sense because technology advancements are consistently making babies able to survive without their mother at a consistently earlier age.

Abortion is harmful to the mother in many ways; many women regret aborting their children, abortion is dangerous, sometimes resulting in death or serious illness, and it greatly increases the risk of ectopic pregnancies, miscarriages, and pelvic inflammatory disease. (1)

Adoption is a great option for those who can't or won't take care of their own children. The only reason against adoption is purely selfish: the mother not wanting to know that the person exists because of her actions, and that she wasn't willing to raise it.

I would like to point out, that extramarital sex is still wrong from an atheistic perspective because of the damage to society. It spreads AIDS rampantly, raises the issue of abortion, causes divorce, and causes much emotional turmoil.

At the least, killing a fetus is still killing a creature, even giving this option to a woman because of her own foolishness is somewhat absurd. In the case of rape, which would you rather kill, the rapist, or the innocent fetus? The rapist deserves punishment, not the fetus. To make abortion legal only for rape is completely illogical, because it would be almost impossible to prove rape, and the court trial would draw unwanted attention. Medical attention soon after rape can prevent pregnancy.

1: http://womensissues.about.com...
Debate Round No. 1
CharmanderAttak

Pro

CharmanderAttak forfeited this round.
abyteofbrain

Con

This round intentionally left blank.
Debate Round No. 2
CharmanderAttak

Pro

My apologies for missed round.

"The line for acceptable abortion is frequently drawn when the baby can survive without the mother. This line makes no sense because technology advancements are consistently making babies able to survive without their mother at a consistently earlier age."
This line does make sense, because even though technology has advanced, there is a point where a fetus is too underdeveloped to like even with the assistance of technology. However, I would like to draw the line until quickening, when the fetus first moves, I will compromise on this issue.

"Adoption is a great option for those who can't or won't take care of their own children. "
Adoption is NOT a great option because the child will likely end up in a family that can not support them or in the foster care system, waiting for adoption. Research indicates that the longer a child stays as a ward of a state, the less likely they are to be adopted.(1) Furthermore, we all know that abuse is rampant in the foster care system.

"many women regret aborting their children, abortion is dangerous, sometimes resulting in death or serious illness"
Many women regret not having an abortion, in a recent case, a woman regretted not being aborted. Her name is Lynn Beisner.
"An abortion would have absolutely been better for my mother. An abortion would have made it more likely that
she would finish high school and get a college education. At college in the late 1960s, it seems likely she would have
found feminism or psychology or something that would have helped her overcome her childhood trauma and pick
better partners. She would have been better prepared when she had children. If nothing else, getting an abortion
would have saved her from plunging into poverty. She likely would have stayed in the same socioeconomic strata
as her parents and grandparents who were professors. I wish she had aborted me because I love her and want what
is best for her." (2)
The facts are that when someone has a child, their future is changed forever. They cannot look back and think, 'this is what was best.' Having the child, is actually the selfish option. If you cannot look past your ideals and look at things objectively, think about that child's limitations or the lack of limitations honestly, then you are not mature enough to have a child. If you can't even decide to have the child without the guilt of morals playing a role, then you a certainly not mature enough to make the decision to give away your child. Making the decision to have an abortion is less expensive on both the mother and society, and it is the least cruel thing to do to that fetus. Letting the fetus come to term and then throwing the child into an unfortunate situation is unfair to the child.

" abortion is dangerous, sometimes resulting in death or serious illness, and it greatly increases the risk of ectopic pregnancies, miscarriages, and pelvic inflammatory disease"
Not only was the source you provided not a medical or scientific source, but it is also one that is refering to self-induced abortion. This means that a woman induced the miscarriage by consuming large amounts of estrogen, using herbs that will cause a hostile womb or the coat-hanger method. This means the risk of these things happening in a clean environment are greatly lessened. Yes they are still a factor, but when you have stints put into your heart to keep you alive, it also greatens your chance for more heart failure. When undergoing any type of surgery, there are expected and acceptable side-effects.

"In the case of rape, which would you rather kill, the rapist, or the innocent fetus? The rapist deserves punishment, not the fetus."
Carrying the fetus to term would be a traumatic experience for the victim. Most rapist do not serve their full sentence and can request to see both the victim and her child. There are not laws against this in every state and if ordain by a judge, it is a circumstance the victim cannot escape. (3) Women who carry reminders of their rape to term are more likely to suffer postpartum depression or kill themselves.

"To make abortion legal only for rape is completely illogical, because it would be almost impossible to prove rape"
If the person was convicted of rape and the embryo matches his dna, then clearly it resulted from the rape. However, I am arguing that all women should be allowed to have the choice to get an abortion as well as the choice to carry the zygote to term.

"Medical attention soon after rape can prevent pregnancy."
While this is true, it cannot guarantee anything. Allowing women the option of an abortion is the most sympathetic thing to do.

(1) http://www.irp.wisc.edu...
(2) http://www.theguardian.com...
(3) http://verdict.justia.com...
abyteofbrain

Con

So far, you've implied that the child's opinion doesn't matter, yet you mention a woman who says that she should have been killed (which sounds downright suicidal).

I'd like to ad that drawing any kind of line on maturity of when the human becomes a person, is, at best, a strange way of doing things. A human does not suddenly mature; it's gradual. You could draw the line at 21 weeks, which would mean that at 20 weeks, 23 hours, 59 minutes, and 59 seconds, the fetus is not a person.

I don't believe in putting people out of their misery; if they want, they can do it themselves, but to do it to them would be murder. It sounds to me like this is what you're suggesting. If a fetus is a person, then killing it in any circumstance would be murder. It is commonly said that "there is no such thing as an unwanted child", because, for every parent-less child there are about 1.5 families wanting to adopt. No, I did not know that abuse is rampant in the foster-care system. According to my findings, which are a little shaky, about 28% of foster kids are abused. (1) If a family can't afford to take care of another child, they probably won't try to adopt.

It's funny that you should mention visitation rights of rapists, because my previous opponent on this topic did as well. This is easily dismissed, because if rapist visitation rights are unwanted, make that illegal. This is not an issue of abortion. Just because an embryo matches the DNA of a person, doesn't mean that it was rape. If that person confessed, or was previously convicted of rape, that would be evidence, but not conclusive proof.

I apologize that my source was unsatisfactory, though I saw no-where on the site where it said that it was referring to self-induced abortions. I also found this:
"" One death per every 530,000 abortions if you are at eight weeks or less
" One death per 17,000 abortions for pregnancies at 16"20 weeks
" One death per 6,000 abortions at 21 weeks and more.", and on the same site, some risks are shown as:
"" Cramping of the uterus or pelvic pain
" Nausea or vomiting
" Diarrhea
" Warmth or chills
" Headache
" Dizziness
" Fatigue
" Inability to get pregnant due to infection or complication of an operation
" Allergic reaction to the medicines
" Hemorrhage (heavy bleeding) possibly requiring treatment with an operation, a blood transfusion, or both
" Incomplete removal of the unborn child, placenta, or contents of the uterus, requiring an operation
" Rarely, death." (2)

You've not yet mentioned how you intend to prove that a baby is not a person. Which of the differences do you consider the determining factor, and why?

"If you can't even decide to have the child without the guilt of morals playing a role, then you a certainly not mature enough to make the decision to give away your child. " This is ridiculous, you said that we should ignore morals when making a decision on abortion. This is the equivalent of saying that our selfish desires are all that matter on the subject. Aborting a child is killing a life, life is priceless, therefore, abortion is very expensive. You also say : "Having the child, is actually the selfish option.", so your saying, that having a child, which will cost you immeasurable time and effort, and possibly emotional turmoil, so that you can help a child become a good adult, is MORE selfish than killing the child to avoid all of the difficulty? So we should assume that the child would rather die, than be raised in a potentially stressful environment? Who are we to judge what the child can not yet communicate? Would you shoot someone who told you that they wanted to die? That would be murder.

1: http://www.psychologytoday.com...
2: http://www.midlandlifecenter.org...
3: more on risks: http://afterabortion.org...
Debate Round No. 3
CharmanderAttak

Pro

CharmanderAttak forfeited this round.
abyteofbrain

Con

Because my opponent has not been able to respond, I'll keep my conclusion simple. The issue, if you believe in the immorality of murder, is weather or not humans are always people. If they are not, then we must ask "when?", which would make it very common to accidentally (or intentionally), cross the fine line between humanity and personhood, in which case, the killer has become a murder. So if you draw the line at physical and mental ability, If I wanted to kill someone, I could mame them, then kill them, in which case, I would be accused of assault and battery at the worst. If humans are always persons, then abortion is clearly murder, and there is no more to be discussed.
Thank you for the debate, and I am sorry that you couldn't complete it.
Debate Round No. 4
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by CharmanderAttak 3 years ago
CharmanderAttak
If you'd like, it is understandable if you don't.
Posted by abyteofbrain 3 years ago
abyteofbrain
Would you like me to skip my turn too?
Posted by CharmanderAttak 3 years ago
CharmanderAttak
My apologies for missing a round, I have an english paper whose due date is rather pressing.
Posted by CharmanderAttak 3 years ago
CharmanderAttak
Certainly.
Posted by abyteofbrain 3 years ago
abyteofbrain
I would love to accept the debate, but I'm doing another right now, and don't have time for two simultaneous debates. I'll gladly debate you when my current debate is over.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Gohan12345 2 years ago
Gohan12345
CharmanderAttakabyteofbrainTied
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