The Instigator
policydebategod
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points
The Contender
jwebb893
Con (against)
Winning
27 Points

Abortion before the third trimester is the shizz!!!

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/25/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,294 times Debate No: 993
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (10)

 

policydebategod

Pro

1. Government gets to control a woman's body.
2. "Back alley" abortions would increase if it were made illegal, leading to increased risk of young women dying or becoming sterile.
3. It's arguably better for society to have babies aborted than have them be brought up poor and neglected, where not only will the child suffer but society when that child develops a higher attraction to crime, welfare, etc.
4. One brief mistake can take away a woman's childhood and trap her for life.
5. Raped women would be forced to have unwanted, criminal enduced children without support for that child.
6. Abortion is not murder because it is performed before a fetus has developed into a human person.

AND I CONGRATULATE YOU ON YOUR BEING LIBERTARIAN. GOOD JOB ON THAT.
jwebb893

Con

Hello PolicyDeabteGod, thanks for the political compliment.

I agree with many of your points.
1.I do not contest that making abortion illegal would increase crime rates because of the increased amount of impoverished children
2. I do not like government regulation... of anything
3. I agree a woman has the right to do what she wishes with her body
4. Rape victims did not agree to let the child use her body and thus may have an abortion

It is for these reasons that I do not believe that abortion should be made illegal.

I, do, however, draw a distinction, as you should if you are a libertarian, between legal and moral actions.

Lying is immoral, but we to a large degree have the right to lie, etc.

If you wish to debate on the legality of abortion, then Im sorry I am not your man. If you wish to continue this argument from a moral standpoint, then we can debate something.

However, I believe that most of your arguments rest on a consequentialist ethical views, which I do not use at all in my opinions. Consequentialism, more or less, says that its is the ends of an action, whether it produces good results, that make an act good, not the intentions. The problem with this line of thinking in abortion is that it justifies late or partial birth abortions, so long as they do not "impoverish the mother" or "ruin the lives of those around her". However, I do not believe you think killing a perfectly viable fetus just before birth is ok. Thus, we must approach this argument in a rights-based manner.

Im going to assume that you believe it is wrong to end the life of the fetus IF IT WERE A HUMAN BEING. If not, then say so in your next turn and we can discuss this.

However, your best point is that you do not consider the fetus a human being. My question to that point is this, at what point does someone magically acquire rights? Its as if they simply fall out of the sky, or bloodstream in this case, at some magical point X and then its wrong to kill the fetus. A fetus is a stage of human development; I think we can all agree on this point, unless you think you were not a fetus at some point. Childhood and adolescence and adulthood are also stages in human development. Why can we kill fetuses and not other people?

After all, ending the life of a two year old might allow a single mother to go back to school and "make something of herself".

But wait, you say, that not the same thing at all! The two year old isn't attached to the mother!

Here is where I think we must broaden our thinking and use our logic. What is the point of the fetuses' attachment to the mother?

answer: THE MOTEHR IS PROVIDING THE CHILD WITH SERVICES IT NEEDS TO GROW AND SURVIVE

guess what?

2 year olds are also helpless to survive without a mother or surrogate mother or provider of some sort. They cannot survive on their own; they completely rely on others to make it.

Thus, I contend that even if you do not consider the fetus a child, it is still morally reprehensible.

I do not speak in terms of black and white because I realize everyones situation is different. I hesitate to call some things "right" and others "wrong"; however, I believe it is not just a neutral act to have an abortion. Even the life of a potential human is worth much.
Debate Round No. 1
policydebategod

Pro

2. "Back alley" abortions would increase if it were made illegal, leading to increased risk of young women dying or becoming sterile.
6. Abortion is not murder because it is performed before a fetus has developed into a human person.

MY OPPONENT AGREED TO THE FOLLOWING POINTS WITH THE EXCEPTION OF 2 & 6:
1.I do not contest that making abortion illegal would increase crime rates because of the increased amount of impoverished children
2. I do not like government regulation... of anything
3. I agree a woman has the right to do what she wishes with her body
4. Rape victims did not agree to let the child use her body and thus may have an abortion

It is for these reasons that I do not believe that abortion should be made illegal.

I, do, however, draw a distinction, as you should if you are a libertarian, between legal and moral actions.

I UNDERSTAND YOUR POSITION AND DO NOT WANT TO DEBATE ABORTION ON A MORAL STANDPOINT.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT LIBERTARIANS WERE FOR ABORTION AND GAY RIGHTS.
IS THAT CORRECT?
NO MATTER WHAT, I AM FOR BOTH.
jwebb893

Con

I actually agree with you on 2 as well. I included" back alley abortions" in increased crime rate. However, I believe all of these empirical statistics are subjugated to RIGHTS.

Since you addressed libertarianism, I'll do the same.
Libertarians believe the government should not regulate our lives because of our natural rights to life, liberty, and property. So you see, since I believe that it is impossible to COUN OUT a fetus as a life worth saving, I can maintain libertarian and anti-abortion stances.

That said, legally,Im still against government interference with abortion. I'm speaking only form an ethical standpoint.

My opponent has not yet addressed my argument concerning that statuses of fetuses and our responsibilities regarding them. Therefore, I'll spare the reader more babble until he does.

Thanks for reading
Debate Round No. 2
policydebategod

Pro

MY OPPONENT HAS AGREED TO ALL OF MY POINTS EXCEPT WITH THAT ABORTION IS NOT MURDER. SHE ONLY BROUGHT UP ONE ARGUMENT WHICH IS THAT ABORTION IS MURDER. IF I PROVE THAT ABORTION BEFORE THE THIRD TRIMESTER IS NOT MURDER, THEN MY OPPONENT HAS NO HOPE OF WINNING THE DEBATE BECAUSE THERE IS ONLY ONE ARGUMENT LEFT IN IT.

murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

- to be "murder" an action must involve "killing." Something that was alive before the act must be dead as a result of the act. However, the fetus was never alive, so it therefore cannot be killed or "murdered."
- abortion is not unlawfu and therefore is not murder.
- abortion is not done to harm the baby but instead to save it from a life of crime and neglect, which is not only an obvious occurance but rather my opponent even agreed that this is the result of a non aborted baby.
- the University of California team said foetuses probably only have that capacity at 29 to 30 weeks gestation. A full-term pregnancy lasts around 40 weeks. http://news.bbc.co.uk...
- Many physicians and medical researchers believe that fetuses can begin to feel pain sometime during the third trimester. This is long after:
Essentially all miscarriages occur,
Ectopic pregnancies have been dealt with, and
After about 99% of abortions are performed.
Some researchers suggest fetuses cannot sense pain, no matter how far along in pregnancy. They believe that pain can only be felt after birth. Some pro-life physicians believe that fetuses can feel pain much earlier in pregnancy
- to be "murder" an action must involve the killing of "human" life. When you kill bacteria by gargling Listerine, you have not committed murder. When butchers slaughter pigs for hot dogs and cows for steaks, they have not committed murder.
jwebb893

Con

First of all, the fact that I agreed with most of your arguments DOES NOT MATTER because the only thing that does matter is whether the act of abortion is morally unacceptable.

I hate doing the quotes thing, but if policydebategod is going to insist in twisting what i said then i will do so.

"to be "murder" an action must involve "killing." Something that was alive before the act must be dead as a result of the act. However, the fetus was never alive, so it therefore cannot be killed or "murdered"

- A fetus is DEFINATELY alive. It is a group, at the very least, of living cells, growing and changing. To claim that a fetus is not alive is simply bad science

"abortion is not unlawfu and therefore is not murder."
This argument is simply ridiculous. The legality and morality of an action are completely separate. Slavery was lawful at one point. Does that mean it was not a rights violation until 1865? Absolutely not.

"abortion is not done to harm the baby but instead to save it from a life of crime and neglect, which is not only an obvious occurrence but rather my opponent even agreed that this is the result of a non aborted baby. "
How naive are you? Many abortions are performed because the mother deems it an inconvenience to have a child at point X in her life.

In addition, it is equally appalling to say that you are saving the life of the future child by killing it. Im sure it would thank you for removing its chance at life.

In conclusion, IT DOES NOT MATTER TO THE ARGUMENT whether or not I agree that abortion, can, sometimes, lower crime rates or prevent back alley abortions. What matters is the ETHICAL status of the action based on rights.

My opponent has not addressed my original argument against the logic that we should consider all fetuses before random time X not people or my argument against Consequentialsim, the philosophy on which most of his arguments rest. Therefore, EVEN IF YOU AGREE WITH HIM, I do not think he won this debate

Thanks for Reading
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
Problem solved. Happy New Year everyone.

Peace
Posted by policydebategod 9 years ago
policydebategod
- brittwalker you an OLD @$$hole and truly acting like one.
- if you dont know to debate or want to debate then by all means join a forum site. not a debate site.
- i know more about abortion than the lot of you because i have campaigned for it with candidates and debated it in high school
- in fact i am creating a new, better dsite and have been for some time. it will be actual debate instead of this three round, biased judges bull crap.
- thank you.
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
policydebategod: I know you think you are "da bomb" or "the shizz," but you are a child and are truly acting like one. You should calm down a little bit and try to absorb some of the knowledge that is "being dropped on you" by your fellow debaters. And once again, whatever "actual debate" you are talking about has no relevance here. This site works the way it does. Period. Go create your own site if you don't like it.
Posted by Partyboat 9 years ago
Partyboat
"+ CAP LETTERS RELAY THE MESSAGE WELL TO PEOPLE WHO OFTEN GIVE A VOTER BIAS"

No they don't at all. I don't need every word fully capitalized to understand the point any better. In fact in give a better chance of having people vote against you, if anything.
Posted by policydebategod 9 years ago
policydebategod
- what are you going to say in a draft? no?
+ YES!!!
- same debate, same wording
+ this is what we do in real debat. we get a good debate topic and stick with it. if u wantto make fun of an amateur way of debating go ahead. but policy's age old. my debating style comes from years of actual debate.
- cap letters
+ CAP LETTERS RELAY THE MESSAGE WELL TO PEOPLE WHO OFTEN GIVE A VOTER BIAS
- i wish i knew...
+ if u dont like me for whatevr try a debate, dipshit
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
I wish I knew... (blah blah blah)
Posted by Partyboat 9 years ago
Partyboat
Every debate I read of his has at least one sentence or two with all capital letters, when will he stop this?
Posted by brittwaller 9 years ago
brittwaller
policydebategod: how many people are you going to have the same debate with at the same time using the same wording?
Posted by my.matryoshka 9 years ago
my.matryoshka
"1. Government gets to control a woman's body. "

Not just a woman's body. Yours, mine, his, hers, and everyone else living within America's borders. What are you going to say when the government calls for your services in wartime? "It's my body and I'll do want I want"?
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