The Instigator
Grape
Pro (for)
Winning
61 Points
The Contender
Brandonmaciel333
Con (against)
Losing
14 Points

Abortion is Morally Permissible/Ethical

Do you like this debate?NoYes-3
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Vote Here
Pro Tied Con
Who did you agree with before the debate?
Who did you agree with after the debate?
Who had better conduct?
Who had better spelling and grammar?
Who made more convincing arguments?
Who used the most reliable sources?
Reasons for your voting decision
1,000 Characters Remaining
The voting period for this debate does not end.
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/26/2010 Category: Politics
Updated: 6 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,222 times Debate No: 12153
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (6)
Votes (12)

 

Grape

Pro

This debate will consist of 3 debating rounds. The first round will be used for my opponent to indicate that he/she has accepted the debate.

I have no particular preference for format but I will be leading off and I hope my opponent will response in a format that is easy to follow and refer back to.

If my opponent has any questions concerning what is meant by the resolution or a preferred interpretation, he/she can address this in the first round.
Brandonmaciel333

Con

Thank you for this debate
I think this would be an interesting one
Knowing that I am an atheist and still find it wrong

I believe abortion should only be around because if a fetus dies during the pregnancy theres no point in having it there

Thank you
Debate Round No. 1
Grape

Pro

Resolved: Abortion is ethical.

Introduction: I am going to clear up a few details immediately. One argument that has been used against abortion to the point of becoming ubiquitous in such debates is that there is little significant difference between the mental or physiological status of a fetus days prior to birth and an infant days after birth. This is used against the traditional liberal argument that the significant moral break in the development of the fetus occurs with its biological separation with the mother. For the most part I do not accept the liberal argument, and am willing to concede that it may not be ethical to abort some fetuses right before birth. However, if it is ethical to abort a pregnancy after a certain point in development, then it was still at some point ethical to abort . To make an analogy, the fact that it is illegal to drive while intoxicated does not support the resolution that driving is illegal. All actions can be can be subject to circumstance (in this case, the circumstance may depend on the age of the fetus).

Moving on to the definition of ethics: I do not believe ethics are subject to popular opinion or cultural standards. These metrics have never been particularly accurate in proving anything. My preferred method of determine ethics is that ethical actions promote certain priorities which I deemed favorable. I consider it favorable to increase the pleasure and freedom of people. Something which advances this cause will be considered ethical unless my opponent can provide alternate priorities and demonstrate that they are more important provide an entirely different and demonstrably definition of ethics.

Argument 1: A Fetus Is Not A Person

I will first thank Freeman for using this source in this debate as I find it to be extremely useful. Mary Anne Warren defines a person as having five principle characteristics: consciousness, rationality, self-motivation, the capacity to communicate, and self-concepts. It is commonly accepted in the study of bioethics that these traits or more important thank simply the status of being human. An undefined and ill understood genetic code is an invalid criteria for determining moral status. The mental characteristics cited by Warren are far more important.

Now, it is clear that a human fetus does not possess these characteristics. Therefore it is not a person and killing it would not violate the ethical priority of increasing the pleasure and freedom of people. In much the same way, it is ethical to kill animals under certain conditions. A human fetus is morally much like an animal in that though it is living it lacks key mental traits that would elevate it to the status of a person. In much the same way, rocks do not have rights because they also lack these traits.

I am not arguing for the wanton killing of fetuses any more than I would argue for the wanton killing of animals. However, animals generally are killed whenever it is favorable or convenient to do so. I cannot see why an unthinking, unfeeling developing fetus would be treated any differently simply due to it's genetic status of being human. I think this suffices to demonstrate that the actual killing of a fetus is not wrong. Therefore, as long as someone had a reason to do so it would be an ethical action.

I may bring in addition arguments later in the debate but I believe this alone, if defended sufficiently, is enough to demonstrate that abortion is ethical.
Brandonmaciel333

Con

I would just like to point out that the reason that you probably don't mind the killing of an unborn HUMAN BEING is because your living, why would you care?
technically the fetus has to be alive to even develop it may not have the characteristic that you consider a human being but it's still living.
and what do you say about a special needs person?
not all could could communicate
or a person considered a "vegetable"
or a person in a coma?
if your son gets in a car accident and ended up in a coma should they have him killed or would you kill him because he's not conscious? I mean he is missing one of the five principles of being a "person (not trying to threaten you in anyway)
and just because someone considers being a person having those characteristics dose not mean they're right
and you just said "killing" last i realized murder is murder no matter how you put it, if you kill a human without a real reason. example self defense, if someone is trying to shoot you or break in your house ect. then it is considered ok.
when you kill an animal it is usually to eat, in some cases also self defense, or research, you are basically massacring the fetus and then just throwing it away for self convenience and selfishness.
When you have sex you are well aware of the consequences, why not just accept responsibility for your own actions?
If we look at this in another way, it is like me telling someone you should have been aborted and then kill them.
http://www.youtube.com...;
i would like to thank headphonegut for this video that he used in one of his debates
Debate Round No. 2
Grape

Pro

Introduction: This argument is kind of an unorganized jumble so I am going to try to break it apart and address each relevant point as best I can.

"I would just like to point out that the reason that you probably don't mind the killing of an unborn HUMAN BEING is because your living, why would you care?"

The alleged reason why I believe something had no bearing on the validity of my arguments.

"technically the fetus has to be alive to even develop it may not have the characteristic that you consider a human being but it's still living."

I was quite clear about the fact that I consider the fetus human. I just don't consider that to be the important factor in determining its rights.

"and what do you say about a special needs person?"

This would vary on a case by case basis. In any case, the treatment of the handicapped is not the topic of this debate. The mentally handicapped obviously should not have the full rights that normal individuals have, but this is not entirely analogous to abortion in that there is no prerogative for killing these people.

"or a person considered a "vegetable"
or a person in a coma?"

If the person's brain is damaged to the point where it cannot recover than these people would be on the level of a fetus. If they are able to recover than they should be treated as a sleeping person: they must all the capacities for personhood but are not presently able to express them.

"if your son gets in a car accident and ended up in a coma should they have him killed or would you kill him because he's not conscious? I mean he is missing one of the five principles of being a "person (not trying to threaten you in anyway)"

This is a very hypothetical situation and I do not even have a son so it's hard to say what I would do. A person who is permanently unconscious is effectively dead anyway so I would not consider the euthanasia of this person to be murder.

"and just because someone considers being a person having those characteristics dose not mean they're right
and you just said "killing" last i realized murder is murder no matter how you put it, if you kill a human without a real reason. "

If you don't think those characteristics are what makes a person than you should offer a better definition of your own. However, I think most will agree that the version of Warren's definition which I have adopted covers the most important traits that humans have. Also, the killing of a human being is not always murder. Murder is the unlawful or unethical killing of a person. I do not believe that having a human genetic code is sufficient alone to make a "person", our mental traits are far more important. Also, you seem to believe that abortion is always done without any real reason. A I understand it, the process is extremely unpleasant both physically and emotionally and I doubt it is undertaken for frivolous reasons or without great consideration.

"example self defense, if someone is trying to shoot you or break in your house ect. then it is considered ok."

I assume this is an example of when it is ethical to kill a person. I would agree, but I do not believe a fetus is a person so this is a moot point. You do not need as pressing a reason to kill non-sentient creatures as you do people.

"when you kill an animal it is usually to eat, in some cases also self defense, or research, you are basically massacring the fetus and then just throwing it away for self convenience and selfishness."

People kill insects for utterly frivolous reasons all the time without any consequences. A 3 week out zygote is less developed mentally than even these extremely simple creatures. As I have stated above, it is wrong to assume that abortions are not preformed for a good reason.

"When you have sex you are well aware of the consequences, why not just accept responsibility for your own actions?"

This is irrelevant to the topic of whether or not abortion is ethical.

"If we look at this in another way, it is like me telling someone you should have been aborted and then kill them."

When the person was a fetus, he/she did not have rights. Now this person does. The analogy does not apply.

The videos are never explained in the debate. They explain various abortion procedures. They are completely irrelevant to the topic of whether or not abortion is ethical and are only intended to provoke an emotional response.

Conclusion: My argument remains completely intact.
Brandonmaciel333

Con

I do not have enough time to write my argument
I will continue in round 4
Debate Round No. 3
Grape

Pro

Blah blah blah, arguments extended. This round was skipped.
Brandonmaciel333

Con

Brandonmaciel333 forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4
6 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Posted by infam0us 6 years ago
infam0us
i v-bomb

i fear nothing. GG, grape. may the force be with you.
Posted by CrysisPillar 6 years ago
CrysisPillar
si tu abuelito fue enfermo, hablas con Grape! No "I'll post next round." Tienes que decir. Y tienes tiempo (time) para regresar y terminar este debate. Es mas profesional si usas el tiempo para tus cartas (or arguements as you might want to put it, I don't know). Lo siento porque tu abuelito esta enfermo pero necesitas decirlo o nosotros dicimos "o, Brandonmaciel333 no le gustaria continuar este debate."
Posted by Atheism 6 years ago
Atheism
Ridiculous. If you almost lost a debate for this nonsense of a con, then humanity might be in trouble!
Posted by Brandonmaciel333 6 years ago
Brandonmaciel333
oh snap i read it wrong
no I just had to go to family things
my abuelito (grandpa) got a tumor in his head and we (family)have to go over there and take care of him
Posted by Brandonmaciel333 6 years ago
Brandonmaciel333
i know right!
i just say things straight up
take away the time of figuring out what im saying
Posted by Kinesis 6 years ago
Kinesis
'I do not have enough time to write my argument
I will continue in round 4'

Translation: 'What's going on? What are all these big words Grape is using? My brain hurts, I'll post next round.'
12 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Rhetorical-Disaster 6 years ago
Rhetorical-Disaster
GrapeBrandonmaciel333Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by infam0us 6 years ago
infam0us
GrapeBrandonmaciel333Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Rockylightning 6 years ago
Rockylightning
GrapeBrandonmaciel333Tied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by CrysisPillar 6 years ago
CrysisPillar
GrapeBrandonmaciel333Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by TheSkeptic 6 years ago
TheSkeptic
GrapeBrandonmaciel333Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Vote Placed by FREEDO 6 years ago
FREEDO
GrapeBrandonmaciel333Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:70 
Vote Placed by Atheism 6 years ago
Atheism
GrapeBrandonmaciel333Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Vote Placed by Grape 6 years ago
Grape
GrapeBrandonmaciel333Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:50 
Vote Placed by Brandonmaciel333 6 years ago
Brandonmaciel333
GrapeBrandonmaciel333Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Vote Placed by jayjayhags 6 years ago
jayjayhags
GrapeBrandonmaciel333Tied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60