The Instigator
policydebategod
Pro (for)
Losing
12 Points
The Contender
sammer_the_hammer
Con (against)
Winning
30 Points

Abortion is a right that should remain

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/21/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,459 times Debate No: 791
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (14)

 

policydebategod

Pro

1. Government gets to control a woman's body.
2. "Back alley" abortions would increase if it were made illegal, leading to increased risk of young women dying or becoming sterile.
3. It's arguably better for society to have babies aborted than have them be brought up poor and neglected, where not only will the child suffer but society when that child develops a higher attraction to crime, welfare, etc.
4. One brief mistake can take away a woman's childhood and trap her for life.
5. Raped women would be forced to have unwanted, criminal enduced children without support for that child.
6. Abortion is not murder because it is performed before a fetus has developed into a human person.
sammer_the_hammer

Con

Thanks for the challenge. I'll address your points in turn.

1. The government has every right to control a person if that person shows the inability to make intelligent decisions, as we see with the government confining criminals and ordering mental assistance for people who require it. I'll prove this point more fully later.

2. If sufficient penalties for "back alley abortions" were introduced it would deter them from being performed. As the system stands, the majority of people who do get these dangerous procedures performed cannot afford a licensed medical doctor to do the job in the first place, so either they get an illegally performed abortion or bring a child into the world to be raised in poverty. Its a lose lose situation without a third option, which I plan to introduce in my next point.

3. It may be arguably better to have these babies aborted, but it is obviously arguably better for them not to be aborted in correlation. These children would have a far greater incentive than would an affluent child of finding a way to better themselves. Many of the worlds greatest minds and creative geniuses were born into poverty, such as Vincent Van Gogh and George Washington Carver. These children would offset or even overwhelm the societal negatives created by their peers. Additionally, a better governmental program could be put in place for unwanted children, who could then be taught to be productive adults in such settings as orphanages and foster homes. Many could be adopted if the system were reformed only slightly.

4. Considering that it is rarely a mistake and not necessarily a lifelong trap, this argument has little value. If a girl doesn't use sufficient means to ensure she doesn't get pregnant her choice is already made, and if an accident does happen she can take the morning after pill, which is not widely considered abortion because it prevents implantation of the embryo thereby preventing pregnancy.

5. Again, the "morning after" pill could be used in this instance if the woman wanted to. As the law stands, a woman is not required to support or keep a child in any way that is the product of rape.

6. This argument could be extended to the young child, which also cannot survive without another person to take care of it. Simply because a woman has not yet given birth to the child does not make it any less alive. It grows, it responds to stimuli, it even learns while still in the womb. In short, it displays all the characteristics of life. Therefore, a fetus is alive and should be treated humanely.

My primary arguments are shadowed in my rebuttal.

1. With the variety of birth control products on the market, particularly free solutions such as condoms which can be gotten in places like Planned Parenthood, and the "morning after" pill, the choice can be made long before the embryo becomes a fetus.

2. Once implanted, the human child begins to grow. At this point it is in fact alive as I have shown already, and human due to its distinctly human genetic code.

3. Despite the global fear of overpopulation, a greater birth rate to death rate ratio would be a positive influence on the world. With more people, competition would increase, prompting advances in science, arts, medicine, and all worthwhile pursuits, with few negative side affects, effectively providing more general "good" for everyone. (AKA Utility)

also, don't use so many contentions. Its tedious. if your arguments can't be more condensed maybe they don't really stand on their own, you know? Just thinking out loud there...
Debate Round No. 1
policydebategod

Pro

1.The president should not have the right to control people who have the ability to make good decisions. These unwanted mothers have full brain capacity but simply dont want to raise a child. This is offensive to say that anybody who gets knocked up or raped is mentally retarded. Unwanted mothers are as smart as you or I.

2. You're right, penalties for "back alley abortions", MURDER? Back alley abortions are still abortions and would be penalized. The people who commit these abortions know that it is wrong but they dont want to ruin their lives with an unwantd child who will in turn be neglected. People who committED these back alley abortions were people who had no actual abortions availablke not poor women.

3. Adoption is terrible emotionally because your child is in somebody elses hands and possibly miserable. Adoption is morally daunting. These examples, Van Gogh, etc. can not be considered because most poor, neglected children are not going to be amazing painters or inventors but more likely drug dealers and gang bangers. Adoption is more morally questionable than abortion. Consider living a life where you have nobody to love you, or ever has loved you and your own parents thought you were not good enough to be taken care of. And consider the parents knowing that their child is somewhere in the world but the child knows they are parentless and you are those sad abandoners.

4. - Considering that it is rarely a mistake and not necessarily a lifelong trap, this argument has little value.
+ You are saying that a victim of rape has to raise a child or give it away? A person was a victim of a violent crime and they have to be punished for it. People are raped every day. 1 in 3 girls is raped by the time they are 18. If even one person had to suffer this there would be reason to kill the law.
- If a girl doesn't use sufficient means to ensure she doesn't get pregnant her choice is already made,
+ You're forgetting about raped people. Also some people just simply dont make the choice before hand. Their life should not be ruined forever because of it. It is a small mistake for such a huge, unnecessary consequence
- and if an accident does happen she can take the morning after pill, which is not widely considered abortion because it prevents implantation of the embryo thereby preventing pregnancy.
+ this is abortion. the baby is not fully developed until the third trimester. some people dont learn that they are pregnant until a month after the fact, should they have their ENTIRE LIVES ruined because of one month of lack of knowledge. this is brutal and unnecessary. youre essentially killingpeople's dreams. they will have to drop out of school, get low paying jobs, spend all their oney on the baby and not on investments like grad school or business investments, and so much more for a few minutes of mistake.

5. Abortion clinics cannot support themselves if their only patients are raped women who learned they were pregnant two weeks or more afterward. the raped victims will have no other choice but back alley abortions involving clothes hangars and other violent methods.

6. If the morning after pill is okay to take away babies then so is beofre the third trimester when they cannot breathe, have lungs, tissues, etc. according to Roe vs. Wade, a case ruling abortion legal.

1. Abortion kills babies before they have developed. They are not people and cannot feel yet either way. Condoms are before the fact and you cannot use a condom after you learned that you are pregnant. Also rapists dont use condoms.

2. This point is justsimply not true. And actually two people die in the process figuratively. The women has to throw away all of her dreams, time and money and essentially her life. The child will be neglected or abandoned if the mother does not want to raise the child.

3. WTF? Are serious with this point? There is enough competition now. Competition is good enough. Besides medicines are made everyday to keep people alive and hospitals do the same. This amazing, wonderful change in our society has not happened and besides the neglected children will not be competition but rather sad cases.
And overpopulation too...

- also, don't use so many contentions. Its tedious. if your arguments can't be more condensed maybe they don't really stand on their own, you know? Just thinking out loud there...
+ no.
sammer_the_hammer

Con

*sigh*

ok, back again to the points

1. The injunction made is against the mother aborting an already living fetus. Just as we have laws which are meant to restrain the citizenry already, this law is meant to restrain the mother from killing the child. Every day I wake up the government, and I suppose the president by corollary controls my life by preventing me from doing certain things which I might otherwise do. There is a legal precedent and a moral reason for it. I would remind you that it is the government and not the president that we originally were discussing in this point of contention.

2. This contention hinges on the assumption that abortion is a better option than adoption or raising a child. This is not true. Abortion is murder, and has a terrific emotional price attached to it, more even than adoption.

3. Again assuming that adoption is a worse choice than abortion. Aborting a child essentially runs the hormonal train right of the tracks and causes emotional and physiological trauma that is unmatched by any other choice. This means the mother has life long negative consequences to deal with. Which is, as I'm sure is apparent, BAD. Moreover, worse than the apparent emotional trauma of adoption on mother and child.

4. First of all, if one in three girls is raped, then most of my friends and peers escaped a devastating statistic. Unless perhaps it was made up? However this isn't the point, the point is that the child is already alive inside, if still in a fetal state then still in a fetal state, but alive none the less. That child deserves life too. However, as I stated, using the morning after pill is an effective solution, since it is not aborting a fetus, but only preventing an embryo from implanting in the uterine wall. And AGAIN you assume that the child MUST be kept by the mother once it is born. This is not the case.

5. There is always a choice to actually have the child, and forgive the unborn and helpless life inside for the actions of another. Not to mention of course if a woman doesn't think she is pregnant from being raped she apparently hasn't ever heard of anything to do with anything ever about her own body chemistry. quite unlikely in the United States.

6. Roe v. Wade was and still is a hotly contested case, and the idea that supreme court justices have legislated from the bench is abhorrent. That isn't even the real point though, the point is that despite a fetus inability to support itself outside the womb it is in fact alive. As I argued before, a child outside the womb is also unable to maintain its own life, albeit for a longer time because of a more mature physiology.

1. I just like the first three words. "Abortion Kills Babies..." Yes it does. Denying them the same rights as you or me is bigoted. It reminds me of white people saying "them there blacks ain't people anyhow" or men saying women "aren't really citizens after all" when if fact they are. An unborn child is a child still, the brain is functioning from the moment the first neuron appears, the body is growing and adapting already, and as I said the essentially human DNA leaves little other option of how to classify it, as a living human being.

2. What argument for it not being true are you making? I don't see one. I've already stated that an embryo is not yet really alive since it isn't growing (beyond the first division) and doesn't meet the other criteria for being "alive" that everyone learns in High School (or at least it is assumed they learn). And here we are yet again blatantly assuming a point that I, I thought considerately, refuted. Adoption is a viable and actually a positive option. And to use a popular analogy, a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. Applied here, a definite death is worse than two possibly disrupted lives later.

3. I'm always serious. The competition is apparently not good enough to force the people who live in slums to find something better because there isn't enough desire to escape that life because there is not enough competition. I realize this is an esoteric and very philosophic point, but it does have merit for the debate, and overpopulation is a joke. There is so much livable space that is not being used its a joke. And even more space is available in more difficult areas, including but not limited to: The poles, the oceans, the Moon, Mars, Titan. Granted that the extra-terrestrial ideas are still some way down the road, but so is the need for them, a need barely felt now but which would be heightened if we had a greater population.

Another note, please at least use the handy spellchecker. I can't be certain what your arguments are if I can't read the words which comprise them.
Debate Round No. 2
policydebategod

Pro

1. Laws are made and made carefully, not arbitrarily. The laws are debated and more. Thats why abortion is not against the law. Controlling a person is limited. That is the principal America is based on. America elects its officals and have several rights. Control is limited and should be limited to disagree with that is to not be an American.

2. Abortion is not murder but rather killing an un human creature. Saying abortion is muder is like saying that squashing a bug is murder or so is stabbing a calculator. Fetuses cant feel until the second trimester or thikn or essentialy live. Abortion is significantly daunting of emotion. Imagine having a child in the world but you know that that child is lonely, has nobody to love him, etc. And YOU are responsible. Put the thing out of its misery. Imagine if you had to live in a place where nobody loved yo and you had no freedom for 18 years. Sounds like prison to me. But what did these children do?

3. A baby for ninth months inside of you, pushed out of you, taking 3/4 your income, and more is more than just a bother. Neglected children are more likely to lead lives of crime and to say otherwise is to say that parents are useless.

4. First of all, if one in three girls is raped, then most of my friends and peers escaped a devastating statistic. Unless perhaps it was made up?
+ Maybe your life is moresheltered than other, more indigent neighborhoods or your firends can keep secrets well. If a raped woman does not learn that she is raped until the morning after pill is too late, then she will have to suffer unnecessary consequences.

5. If the baby was never allowed to be an embryo it is just the same as if it was aborted. Americans should have the right.

6. Roe vs. Wade is still a contested case as are all cases. There is no point here. The Supreme Court debates and decides and they will continue.

1. Not having a baby kills babies as well. Point blank: parents need rights and so do children.

2. A defined death is not worse than two ruined lives. Period.

3. This is a ridiculous point that Ive rebutted sufficiently.
sammer_the_hammer

Con

I could again go through the argument counter-argument flow of this debate, but I find it unnecessary. My opponents case is based on many assumptions, which I have shown to be wrong, and I offered viable counter-points to everything that was said, as opposed to my opponent who just stated surface refutations without actually stating why the things I said weren't true.

A few key points: Preventing embryonic implantation is different than aborting a fetus. One is still in the preventative stage, and one is not. Adoption is a less traumatic experience emotionally and physiologically for a woman than abortion, and being alive and healthy is always preferable to never having had the chance at all. The fact that something is a law does not make it right, and defining someone as not human or not really alive does not change the fact that they are, as I demonstrated. Its a simple decision. I've shown that abortion is effectively never the best option, and that aborting a fetus is taking a life, which is universally acknowledged as an illegal act in any lawful society.

Therefore, I've sufficiently proved that abortion is not a "right" and definitely should not remain.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Flyaway625 9 years ago
Flyaway625
questions/ points for policydebategod....

1. A fetus is not part of a woman's body. Yes it is dependent on the woman for basic necessities, but it has a completely different genetic code making it a completely different human being.*

2. 90% of all illegal abortions performed prior to Roe v. Wade were performed by licensed doctors in the same medical facilities that they were performed in after Roe v. Wade. 9% were done by back alley facilities, and only 1% were performed by the women themselves. In fact, from 1970-1974, only 39 deaths due to abortion were reported. The invention of penicillin in the 1940s decreased the deaths due to abortion more than the passing of Roe v. Wade. **

3. There is a three year long waiting list of couples who are waiting to adopt children, so how can you say that these children are unwanted? ***

4. If you are old enough to have sex, you are most definitely old enough to face the consequences of your actions and have a baby.

5. Only .5% of all abortions are due to rape and/or incest. Democracy is founded on the priniciple of majority rules, so why would we dictate legislations based on the very small minority of cases?****

6. There is dispute over when life begins. The current scientific explantion for the beginning of life is when the child has its own distinct genetic code. A human acquires a distinct genetic code at conception, so in fact you are killing a human. ***** Oh and by the way, the fetus feels pain at 9 weeks. Well guess what, 75% of all abortions are done 12 weeks or more into the pregnancy meaning the baby feels everything you do to it. ******

* Stanford University Research June 2006
**John Hopkins Department of Embryonic Studies Reseach June 1990
*** Gladney Adoption Agency Statistics November 2007
**** United States Senate Committee of Public Health October 2007

*****Harvard University Medical School Research July 2005
****** Heritage Foundation August 2007
Posted by radiogirlz7 9 years ago
radiogirlz7
other cases that have decided that under our current constitution the government has no right to regulate a woman's body...

Griswold v. Connecticut
-establishes a right to privacy through amendments 1,3,4,5,9,and11

Roe v. Wade
-establishes that this right to privacy applies to a woman and her right to control her own body

Planned Parenthood of Central Missouri v. Danforth
-established that this right to privacy extends to minors.
Posted by radiogirlz7 9 years ago
radiogirlz7
(Referring to sammer the hammer's 1st argument for round 1)
How does the government decide who can make intelligent decisions? Our goverment was supposedly founded on principals of democracy, yet if the government does not trust the people to make intelligent decisions then are we really a democracy?
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