The Instigator
Heller
Con (against)
Winning
46 Points
The Contender
ghatem
Pro (for)
Losing
39 Points

Abortion is just morally wrong.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/14/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,042 times Debate No: 418
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (20)
Votes (28)

 

Heller

Con

For a long time the argument of abortion has been going on. My opinion is that abortion is simply morally wrong. If you think that abortion should be legal, challenge me on this debate.
ghatem

Pro

Hello Heller,

This is my first debate on this site, so I apologize in advance if I should break any unwritten rules of Debate.org.

It's one thing to personally feel as though abortion is immoral and should have no place in society, but it's another to legislate it. Your morality does not dictate national policy. The fact is that a majority of Americans support abortion rights, and we have elected legislators that reflect this majority.

No one likes abortion. It's a traumatic choice to make. But like it or not, many women who become pregnant are simply unable to afford a decent life for their child. Would you like for your child to live in poverty or in a foster home? And what if the fetus is a product of rape or incest? What if the mother's life is also threatened? The government should not be making these decisions.

And if abortion was illegal, who would you punish and how would you do it? Would you punish the mother? Would you throw her in jail? Would you try her for homicide? Would you arrest the doctor?

The answer is not to make abortion illegal, but to try to reduce the number of abortions.

Our country has a very lackluster sexual education program, favoring abstinence-only education over responsible birth control methods. Abstinence-only education doesn't work, according to a recent congressional study, and as a result, millions of teenagers are confused and irresponsible in their sexual relations.

Simply making abortion illegal is not going to solve any problems. Women would still seek out abortions, probably in such a secretive, "back-alley" way that threatens their health. Also, there would be a great financial strain on young families.

Simply put, your morality should not determine our national policy.
Debate Round No. 1
Heller

Con

Hey ghatem,

Im glad that you joined the debate site. Your right my feeling on abortion should not make a decision on whether there is a law about it or not. It should be majority. Though if I could I would like to ask you a few questions about your statement.

You say no one likes abortion. It really should be as simple as that, you don't do things that you don't like. Although I understand what your saying. The problem is, you say " many women who become pregnant are simply unable to afford a decent life for their child. Would you like for your child to live in poverty or in a foster home?"

Absolutely, when it comes down to whether I would want to kill a living being then rather them grow up in poverty I will choice life every time. You have to understand that no one has the choice of deciding who dies. Do you believe it is right to say, well I would rather kill my son or daughter then have them grow up in a poor home?

To your second statement, "and if abortion was illegal, who would you punish and how would you do it?

Although we are not debating the punishment of abortion. I will answer your question. It is homicide, just the same as if you would kill someone walking down the street.

You also say, "Simply making abortion illegal is not going to solve any problems." To that I quote Presidential candidate Alan Keyes, " if your daughter comes and says "Dad, I want to kill grandma for the inheritance," you wouldn't say "well, this is not a good idea, but it's your choice." To simply say that it wouldn't work is not an argument. You can't just turn your check on something that you know deep down isn't right. You have to speak up.
ghatem

Pro

Heller,

Let me address some of your questions.

"Do you believe it is right to say, well I would rather kill my son or daughter then have them grow up in a poor home?"

Not at all. Abortion can, however, prevent children from growing up in poverty. If a pregnant woman knows that she cannot provide for her child, an abortion would prevent her from giving birth. The difference is that a young fetus is not yet a son or a daughter. I am not necessarily advocating that pregnant women living below the poverty line abort their fetus, but rather providing a rationale for them doing so.

"It is homicide, just the same as if you would kill someone walking down the street."

Would you really enforce this as a typical homicide? Would you hand a life sentence to a doctor who preformed an abortion? Would you send a young woman to jail or to the electric chair? What if she never had that abortion but rather, she just sought one. She would still be pregnant, but she would also be on trial for homicide. Would you throw a teenage girl in jail for taking a morning after pill if her boyfriend's condom ripped the previous night?

It's such a difficult line to draw, you can't just dish out homicide sentences.

"if your daughter comes and says "Dad, I want to kill grandma for the inheritance," you wouldn't say "well, this is not a good idea, but it's your choice."

First off, Alan Keyes is a far-right fringe candidate with little common sense. This quotation illustrates that point. To compare a grandmother who has lived for 60+ years to an unborn fetus is a false analogy. The fetus is not yet a person, and the grandmother has lived a long and fruitful life. Another false analogy is the idea of an inheritance being compared to a life without a disadvanted child. An inheritance has a positive connotation, whereas an abortion is perhaps the hardest choice a woman would ever have to make. The analogy just isn't there, and neither is Alan Keyes' brain!

"To simply say that it wouldn't work is not an argument. "

No, it's a very good argument. If a woman really wants an abortion and is convinced that she cannot have a child, there is nothing that you or I or a law could do to stop her. At least if the abortion is legal, she will be able to have it done in a clean, safe environment. If abortion was illegal, she would risk getting an infection or doing serious damage to her body in some shady "back-alley" scenario.

Do you really want the government making this decision? What would you do about miscarriages? How would you differentiate the two in the eyes of the law? What if a woman who had an honest-to-god miscarriage was tried as a homicidal abortionist? There's a lot of room for error.
Debate Round No. 2
Heller

Con

What you need to realize is that what abortion is, is killing a life. Many people get abortions so its easier for themselves. You kill a human life, because its inconvenient for you at the time.

That quote was not so much about killing a grandma, I think you missed the point. It was really about saying if the girl chose to kill her grandma so it would make it easier for her in life by getting the inheritance money, would you simply sit back and let her? Would you do nothing about it? Would you let and innocent human die?

I'd like to quote paul tigger, "It is simply the fact that the woman should bear responsibility for her choices namely to have sex. She and a man made that decision to have sex."

Thats what its about, don't choose to have sex if you don't want a baby, because it might just happen! A human life isn't just a inconvenience that you may throw away if it isn't working for you at the moment. Thats all it simply comes down to.

Thats why I say, your argument just isn't an argument. Even if you know it will still keeping going on, you have to at least try to do something. If you see someone getting bulled on the playground and you do nothing you are just as bad as the bully. Plus you wouldn't say well its gonna keep happening anyway, so lets just not even try to stop it.

As for your death penalty argument, again this isn't about the punishments. However I think paul tigger makes another good point, "Furthermore the law supports anti-abortion policy as you see, a drunken person who kills a pregnant woman in a car accident is tried for two murders (or involuntary homicide). Aww you see two murders, not one. If you say life is only life after the birth why then does an intoxicated person get charged for two murders?"
"
Finally as for the death sentence, it is not as if the United States issues death sentence like they issue free condoms to school children. They have a formal system of appeals, I believe three until they are finally exhausted (not all times) at the US Supreme court. Those on death row have been found guilty of committing a heinous crime against society and after all means of appeals have failed are they sentenced to death for their crimes? Yet once again to bring up, abortion, what crime has the embryo, the infant committed to deserve a death sentence in saline or have his appendages and his body parts ripped from limb to limb?"

I understand why you like the "choice" and "conveniences" of being able to say well I'm just not ready,thats human nature, but honestly THINK of what it is your doing. Your killing a life that hasn't even gotten the chance to live yet. That in my book is murder, in fact the worse murder anyone could partake in.
ghatem

Pro

A young fetus is not a person. It has no ability to experience pleasure or pain, no human traits.

Your opening argument was that abortion should be outlawed on the basis that it is "morally wrong." Since then, we have agreed that one's morality in of itself is not enough to warrant legislation.

Let me address some other points that you have raised.

"Would you let and innocent human die?"

No, of course not. But a young fetus is not a person, not at all comparable to someone who can experience the joys and pains of life.

""It is simply the fact that the woman should bear responsibility for her choices namely to have sex. She and a man made that decision to have sex."

In many cultures and households, the woman has no say in whether or not she has sex. Patriarchal societies hand such decisions to men, unfairly so. Even when the woman is a willing participant, her unwanted pregnancy is most likely due to misinformation or ignorance regarding responsible birth control techniques. This ignorance is largely because of ineffective sexual education programs, particularly the flawed "abstinence only" education prevalent in our country.

In conclusion, abortions should be reduced. But the way to reduce abortions is to educate teenagers on how to have sex responsibly and how to plan financially for a family. You can't just change the law without changing social structures. The government should not make decisions for a woman about her body. We should not be governed by the morality of one, but rather by democratic elections.
Debate Round No. 3
20 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by paul_tigger 9 years ago
paul_tigger
To all readers:

Abortion is indeed an incredibly painful and hot issue with no easy or magical cures or waves of the wand. To those who are contemplating, to those who are and to those who have, our prayers go out to you.

To La Bella Vita I have to add that you are correct if I neglected to mention just how important that the guy is too. Both woman and man should bear the responsibility equally. At last, I was referring however, to the point that in the end, it is the woman who must bear physically with the responsibility of giving birth, nurturing the child while he or she grows in the protective womb. No man, even myself a proud father of a beautiful daughter, a bit bratty at times, but the apple of my eyes, can fully appreciate the sacrifice my wife had to undergo in the nine months. Yet I thank her for every minute for her commitment and unimaginable joy and suffering (labor pains) to which she underwent. Yet I know of no woman who has yet regret the bliss of giving birth and being a part of that creation of life.
I believe that God or a higher power gave woman the responsibility of child birth because man in all his intents and purpose cannot provide the divine love that a mother gives to her first born child with all his destructive force and ability to make war. IT is a divine right bestowed unto womankind for what greater is a love between a mother and her child? THerefore it is my opinion a right that must be guarded for both mother and child.
Yet if you define life as conception, then there is no doubt, there is no refutable evidence within our constitution that dignifies, for that matter sanctions the taking of another human life. I believe the law would define the willful and planned act of killing another human being first degree murder.
For those who seek more information on abortion, go to http://www.abortionfacts.com...
Posted by happy2b 9 years ago
happy2b
La bella vit a: First off, yes it is sick that a female knowing the possible consequences of her actions will have sex and think its ok; Thinking "I'll just kill the baby if I get pregnant", and in fact that is what she is doing when she aborts a child.
Second there have been several cases where the man wants responsibility of the child; however the choice was taken away from him. The same choice that you want and are debating for, men don't get. So in fact you're saying women have more rights then men by taking away their right of choice. So much for equal rights!
Yea I know women who have the baby are heroes… rather then attacking me for my opinion, how about respecting my right to voice my opinion, as I will try to respect yours.
Posted by la_bella_vita 9 years ago
la_bella_vita
"she should have thought of that before she spread her legs?"

this statement is disgusting. a woman is not allowed to enjoy sex unless she's willing to have a baby? but a man is just allowed to screw for pleasure without thinking of the consequences?

"The thing with abortion is that the Dad has no choice, the female gets to decide if the baby lives or dies, making her fully responsible for the death of the child."

it's not that "the dad has no choice" as though he is a victim, it's that the dad doesn't HAVE to make the choice - he therefore leaves all the blame to the woman for something that he is 50% responsible for.

and you're right, women that keep children that resulted from rape are heroes. it is an incredibly strong woman who can do that.

however, it's not your right to FORCE a woman to make that choice.

end of story.
Posted by happy2b 9 years ago
happy2b
The thing with abortion is that the Dad has no choice, the female gets to decide if the baby lives or dies, making her fully responsible for the death of the child.
As for her life being hurt, well good golly folks, she should have thought about that before she decided to spread her legs.
As far as rape and carrying the child, God bless the women who can see that it was not the child who raped her, and adopts that child out. I would say women who do, and there are women who have carried the child regardless of the rape, are heroes.
Posted by jurist24 9 years ago
jurist24
I read, "If abortion is murder, then miscarriage is manslaughter."

This isn't really true. Manslaughter requires a mens rea (or state of mind) equivalent to "recklessness." Because not all miscarriages are the result of recklessness (some just happen for unknown reasons), miscarriages cannot fairly be categorized so generally as manslaughter.
Posted by Lsav 9 years ago
Lsav
until a fetus is capable of living on its own outside of the human body, I would scarcely consider it murder.
Posted by la_bella_vita 9 years ago
la_bella_vita
"It is simply the fact that the woman should bear responsibility for her choices namely to have sex. She and a man made that decision to have sex."

This quote really bothers me. so it's the WOMAN's responsibility because she AND A MAN made that decision to have sex. Yes, he mentions the man, but where does that factor into your argument that the WOMAN should be charged with homicide for something like this??? Why is it MORE the woman's responsibility? just because it happens that only women can be pregnant? Well it takes two to make a baby and basically you're saying a man should and will never have to pay a price for having sex, but a woman should. How are you accounting for the man in all of this nonsense about people being tried as murderers?

Being pregnant is NOT EASY. To carry a child, have to devote your life to them for those 9 months (at LEAST) and to undergo all the physical/emotional changes that happen during this time...There is SO much more to consider.

You also underestimate the feelings that typically go along with abortions.
"Many people get abortions so its easier for themselves"
This statement is not looking deep enough into the issue - if a woman chooses to have a baby you can NOT ignore the fact that it will change her future and the possibilities for her future DRASTICALLY. If a guy knocks up some girl, if he wants he could just pay child support and go about with his regular life.
Many feelings of awful guilt come along with abortions, and it's something that no woman would ever "forget".

I know a girl who was raped at 16 and had an abortion. Could you really tell me that you would force that girl to go through the 9 months and more of something that reminds her of this trauma? We can't make a LAW that makes a blanket decision like banning abortion when there are even a few exceptions.

EDUCATION on birth control, and support for women who choose to keep their baby is what is necessary to reduce abortion.
Posted by KevinL75 9 years ago
KevinL75
I was really hoping this would turn into a philosophical debate, but alas, practicality reigns.

I've never really been able to see the line between potential life and life as clearly as any pro-lifer I know. If we think about the second right before the sperm and egg fuse, it seems to me that that's still a potential life, and if we could somehow simply stop the sperm from penetrating the egg, it wouldn't be homicide by any means. But the second AFTER they fuse, a lot of people think that now it's become a life, and is no longer a potential life.

I just don't see the logic in drawing that line - I see why it makes sense intuitively - but I don't think it's the most appropriate logical place to draw the line between life and potential life. I just don't see the fundamental difference between preventing the fusion of the sperm and the egg, and destroying the embryo just after they've fused.

Also, as far as the "take responsibility for the consequences of your actions" argument goes, I don't believe people should be held responsible for the unforeseen consequences of their actions, if they've taken reasonable measures to prevent those consequences. That of course still leaves an argument to be made for those who don't use protection, but it's not my debate, so I suppose I'll have to wait until I get a formal debate!
Posted by IraqiStateOfAmerica 9 years ago
IraqiStateOfAmerica
-This is real This is real
Now I see them giving the woman abortion to kill another baby, miscarriage and misfortune and premature crack baby

-Future for the babies, hopes for the babies, tomorrow for the babies, no sorrow for the babies
Babies having babies, raising our babies, all of these young ladies give them thanks and praises
How long can she take it? Dreams are full of maybes Will she ever make it?

-Is there no other option than adoption for you babies, you're raffling and jacketing and auctioning your babies?

-There is no debating, No running away thing, *A new life is awakening, From his ejaculating,*
It's in the oven baking
Takes two for the making, He's right there through the cravings, And early morning waking,

-Some are gang related, Drug affiliated, Some intoxicated, Headed for the snake pit, And Papa's locked in cages
And Mama's lacking wages, And this is what they're faced with, Upon a daily basis, Bleaching out dem faces
Running from dem races, Shooting up dem places, Killing other babies, As bitter as the taste is
And words cannot explain it, Just walk the narrow pavement, And speak of love not hatred. -Damian Jr. Cong Marley
Posted by happy2b 9 years ago
happy2b
Perhaps people should start asking themselves, "What if my Mom aborted me?"
You wouldn't be debating this topic that's for sure.
Life is priceless; God granted it to us, a gift as precious as any gem. What right do any of us have to deny that right to any life form? To take away its chance to find a cure for aids, or create a masterful art piece before it even takes its first breath?
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