The Instigator
1dustpelt
Con (against)
Winning
13 Points
The Contender
LiberalJoe
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points

Abortion is morally wrong.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 6 votes the winner is...
1dustpelt
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/27/2012 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,993 times Debate No: 21522
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (10)
Votes (6)

 

1dustpelt

Con

I see that you are for abortion. I would like to debate this with you.
LiberalJoe

Pro

I am assuming arguments start next round.

Good luck, and may Rick Santorum be with you.

That was a joke, in case you were wondering.
Debate Round No. 1
1dustpelt

Con

Thanks for accepting.

Argument-Abortion is murder
The fetus has a right to live just like any other human being. A fetus is a future human being. It is wrong to kill a human being, therefore it is wrong to kill a fetus. Each abortion takes the life of a new, innocent, unique human being.

I will await my opponent's arguments in the next round.
LiberalJoe

Pro

Thank you Con. It is an interesting point, howeveryour argument is not valid in any way, shape, or form.

Rebuttal:

According to your argument:

"It is wrong to kill a human being, therefore it is wrong to kill a fetus."

Aha! That is where you are wrong sir. This is a blatantly false fact and it should not ever be taken this way. You seem to be under the impression that abortion is murder. However, that is incorrect according to the definition of murder:

mur�der/ˈmərdər/
Noun:
The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

You are incorrect because, in order for it to be murder, the victim must be "a human being," something that a fetus is not. In fact, a vast majority of abortion doctors, biologists, and scientists agree that the fetus is not actually a human until it's self sustainability (the period in which it can live without its mother). Before that point, it is nothing more than a parasite, absorbing it's parent's nutrients for it's own well being. For that matter, any abortions before the 20th week of pregnancy (the prerequisite to the self sustainability period) are more or less the removal of a seed that will eventually GROW into a human. Therefore, saying abortion is murder is like saying destorying a seed is the equivalent of cutting down a tree, which is obviously not the case. For that matter, anyone who considers abortion to be murder because the fetus will eventually become a human MUST agree that anytime a woman has her period she is killing a baby, because she is loosing her egg. Again, that is just not the case.

ARGUEMENT

Point 1) Some 250 years ago, our Fore Fathers came upon this land with dreams of Liberty, and Freedom from government oppression. Those ideals have remained a staple of American culture all of these years. Unfortunately, people like my opponent are stepping into the spotlight with different notions. They are attempting to seize these ideas of "Liberty" and "Freedom" and utterly destroy them, claiming women, during THEIR time of pregnancy, CANNOT refuse to give up the seed that is inside of THEM, or else these women aren't moral! Let me ask you, Pro Lifers, how can you call yourselves moral when you are telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies during their time of pregnancy! It's Fascism, if you ask me, or a significant majority of Americans. We need to go back to what made this country the great nation that it was, and we can only do that through allowing people the freedom to choose.

Point 2) Tell me Con: what if a woman is raped? According to the United States Department of Justice, that is something that happens over 190,000 times a year. Do you think that all of these women should have to go through the most painful natural process in life? And after 10 hours of this gut-wrenching pain, they should receive a baby they don't even want? No! No sensible person agrees with this. It is not fair, and in situations like rape, when birth control is not an option, abortion is the only option! It is a fast, moral, relatively cheap method to prevent yourself from having to carry, and it is nothing more than that.

Thank you, and more arguments will be posted next round.
Debate Round No. 2
1dustpelt

Con

Rebuttals

"You are incorrect because, in order for it to be murder, the victim must be "a human being," something that a fetus is not. In fact, a vast majority of abortion doctors, biologists, and scientists agree that the fetus is not actually a human until it's self sustainability (the period in which it can live without its mother). Before that point, it is nothing more than a parasite, absorbing it's parent's nutrients for it's own well being. For that matter, any abortions before the 20th week of pregnancy (the prerequisite to the self sustainability period) are more or less the removal of a seed that will eventually GROW into a human. Therefore, saying abortion is murder is like saying destroying a seed is the equivalent of cutting down a tree, which is obviously not the case. For that matter, anyone who considers abortion to be murder because the fetus will eventually become a human MUST agree that anytime a woman has her period she is killing a baby, because she is loosing her egg. Again, that is just not the case."
Imagine you are a hunter. You see a shadow. It could be a bear, but it also could be a human. Would you shoot? Most people would say no because of the possibility of it being a human. The same goes with abortion. The fetus has a very high possibility of becoming a human, so would you kill it before it has the chance to?

"Point 1) Some 250 years ago, our Fore Fathers came upon this land with dreams of Liberty, and Freedom from government oppression. Those ideals have remained a staple of American culture all of these years. Unfortunately, people like my opponent are stepping into the spotlight with different notions. They are attempting to seize these ideas of "Liberty" and "Freedom" and utterly destroy them, claiming women, during THEIR time of pregnancy, CANNOT refuse to give up the seed that is inside of THEM, or else these women aren't moral! Let me ask you, Pro Lifers, how can you call yourselves moral when you are telling women what they can and can't do with their bodies during their time of pregnancy! It's Fascism, if you ask me, or a significant majority of Americans. We need to go back to what made this country the great nation that it was, and we can only do that through allowing people the freedom to choose."
My opponent's argument is that women have the right to choose. However, does the future-human get to choose? Think about it, if you had the choice to get killed and not get a chance to live or live and become a human, what would you choose? Normal people would want to live! It's a bit hypocritical that Pro-Choice people want women to be able to choose, while denying the choice of life.


"Point 2) Tell me Con: what if a woman is raped? According to the United States Department of Justice, that is something that happens over 190,000 times a year. Do you think that all of these women should have to go through the most painful natural process in life? And after 10 hours of this gut-wrenching pain, they should receive a baby they don't even want? No! No sensible person agrees with this. It is not fair, and in situations like rape, when birth control is not an option, abortion is the only option! It is a fast, moral, relatively cheap method to prevent yourself from having to carry, and it is nothing more than that."
Most rapes do not cause pregnancy.
Of the 200,000 women who were forcibly raped, one-third were either too old or too young to get pregnant. [9]
so right of the bat scratch 1/3.
Women are capable of being fertilized only 3 days (perhaps 5) out of a 30-day month. [9]
So right there take of more because chances are you will not be raped in that 3 day period.
Only half of assailants penetrate her body and/or deposit sperm in her vagina [9]
take off some there.
Fifteen percent of men are sterile [9]
so some rapists do not have sperm, lower that number
Fifteen percent of non-surgically sterilized women are naturally sterile [9]
The number of possibly women pregnant from rape is below 5,000 from the original 200,000
The average couple takes 5-9 months to get pregnant. [9]
SO according to the source the original 200,000 lowers to 450. Most do not become pregnant.

Conclusion
Abortion is not moral because a fetus should at least get a chance to live. My opponent's argument is that women have the right to choose. However, does the future-human get to choose? Think about it, if you had the choice to get killed and not get a chance to live or live and become a human, what would you choose? Normal people would want to live! It's a bit hypocritical that Pro-Choice people want women to be able to choose, while denying the choice of life.







LiberalJoe

Pro

Well I thank the opposition for such a speedy reply, but I am seriously questioning some of the provided rebuttals. And just putting a little [9] (with no visible sources) after completely ridiculous facts does not make them correct.

COUNTER REBUTTALS

#1
My Opponent: "The fetus has a very high possibility of becoming a human, so would you kill it before it has the chance to?"

You, sir, failed to see this one little point in my argument:
"anyone who considers abortion to be murder because the fetus will eventually become a human MUST agree that anytime a woman has her period she is killing a baby, because she is loosing her egg."

So tell me Con, is a woman killing a baby before it has a chance to live whenever she has her period and looses an egg? Well, you must think so if you think "we are killing fetuses before them have a chance to live."

#2
"My opponent's argument is that women have the right to choose. However, does the future-human get to choose? Think about it, if you had the choice to get killed and not get a chance to live or live and become a human, what would you choose? Normal people would want to live! It's a bit hypocritical that Pro-Choice people want women to be able to choose, while denying the choice of life."

The reason we are not giving fetuses a choice is because they would be incapable of choosing if we happened to ask them. For that matter, they are incapable of feeling pain, thinking, digestion, or self awareness. Not only that, but before 20 weeks, they are practically in a sedation period. Needless to say, they are not human beings. And saying that they shouldn't be removed because they "would be humans" is like saying that having a period is killing a baby, because your egg "would be a human."

#3
"Of the 200,000 women who were forcibly raped, one-third were either too old or too young to get pregnant. [9]
so right of the bat scratch 1/3.
Women are capable of being fertilized only 3 days (perhaps 5) out of a 30-day month. [9]
So right there take of more because chances are you will not be raped in that 3 day period.
Only half of assailants penetrate her body and/or deposit sperm in her vagina [9]
take off some there.
Fifteen percent of men are sterile [9]
so some rapists do not have sperm, lower that number
Fifteen percent of non-surgically sterilized women are naturally sterile [9]
The number of possibly women pregnant from rape is below 5,000 from the original 200,000
The average couple takes 5-9 months to get pregnant. [9]
SO according to the source the original 200,000 lowers to 450. Most do not become pregnant."

Where, may I ask, are you getting these "facts?"

"Of the 200,000 women who were forcibly raped, one-third were either too old or too young to get pregnant." Who the heck told you that? http://www.rainn.org.... There are the real facts.

"Women are capable of being fertilized only 3 days (perhaps 5) out of a 30-day month." While the 3-5 day ovulation period is the most common time, you can be fertilized any time of the month, even during period. See: http://www.positive.org...

"Fifteen percent of men are sterile" No, no no. 15% of COUPLES are INFERTILE. You seriously mixed
up your facts. http://www.thedoctorwillseeyounow.com...

ADDITIONAL ARGUMENTS
This is a smaller point not included in my last post.

POINT 1) There are many methods of birth control in today's world. You can attempt natural birth control, by only having sex during ovulation. Or condoms can be used to prevent the flow of sperm. Also, pills such as daily pills or morning after supplements can eliminate the zygote. However, what if the girl ovulates at an unexpected time? Or what if your condom breaks, like some 4% of them do? Maybe the pill doesn't work either, as the chances of failure are always there? Abortion is a last resort for many people. A common "misconception" (no pun intended!) is that pro-choice people love abortion. Abortion is not a great thing, but in situations like teen pregnancies, it can be necessary.

Thank you. I look forward to closing arguments.
Debate Round No. 3
1dustpelt

Con

Rebuttals

So tell me Con, is a woman killing a baby before it has a chance to live whenever she has her period and looses an egg? Well, you must think so if you think "we are killing fetuses before them have a chance to live."
Please use proper English next time so I can understand you.


The reason we are not giving fetuses a choice is because they would be incapable of choosing if we happened to ask them.
But who would choose to die? Nobody would want to be aborted as a fetus.

For that matter, they are incapable of feeling pain, thinking, digestion, or self awareness.
A fetus can feel pain at 8 weeks. At 8 weeks, it has all the musles and organs needed to feel pain. Scientists even did studies that proved fetuses can feel pain. Souces at the bottom.

Where, may I ask, are you getting these "facts?"
I will post them at the bottom of this round.

While the 3-5 day ovulation period is the most common time, you can be fertilized any time of the month, even during period. See: http://www.positive.org......
Still, the number of rape victims that get pregnant is very low. Besides, only 1% of all abortions are because of rape.

There are many methods of birth control in today's world. You can attempt natural birth control, by only having sex during ovulation. Or condoms can be used to prevent the flow of sperm. Also, pills such as daily pills or morning after supplements can eliminate the zygote. However, what if the girl ovulates at an unexpected time? Or what if your condom breaks, like some 4% of them do? Maybe the pill doesn't work either, as the chances of failure are always there? Abortion is a last resort for many people. A common "misconception" (no pun intended!) is that pro-choice people love abortion. Abortion is not a great thing, but in situations like teen pregnancies, it can be necessary.
Again, a fetus is biologically a member of the human species, therefore you cannot morally kill an innocent fetus. There are cases when birth control fails, but they will just have to deal with it. Besides, it was their idea to have sex in the first place.

New point- A fetus can feel pain
A fetus can feel pain at 8 weeks, and abortion causes alot of pain.

Summary

A fetus is biologically a member of the human species.
You cannot morally kill an innocent human.
You cannot morally kill a fetus.

Sources:
http://www.rainn.org...
http://www.abortionfacts.com...
http://news.discovery.com...
http://personal.georgiasouthern.edu...



LiberalJoe

Pro

Thank you for that very... eh, interesting response.


Counter-Rebuttals

"So tell me Con, is a woman killing a baby before it has a chance to live whenever she has her period and looses an egg? Well, you must think so if you think "we are killing fetuses before them have a chance to live."
Please use proper English next time so I can understand you.

Well, that seemed pretty understandable to me. Every time a woman has a period, she looses an egg. So, does that qualify as "murder" in your mind?



"The reason we are not giving fetuses a choice is because they would be incapable of choosing if we happened to ask them."
But who would choose to die? Nobody would want to be aborted as a fetus.

You missed the point! No one would want to die, The reason I said that is because if a fetus is aborted, then it never will be a human, therefore it was never and will never be able to make a choice rationally! So your argument basically makes no sense!




"For that matter, they are incapable of feeling pain, thinking, digestion, or self awareness."
A fetus can feel pain at 8 weeks. At 8 weeks, it has all the musles and organs needed to feel pain. Scientists even did studies that proved fetuses can feel pain. Souces at the bottom.

No, a fetus can not feel pain until 20 weeks! I looked at one of YOUR sources, and here's what it said.
"A new Nebraska law bans abortions after 20 weeks, based on the idea that pain begins then."
That's right! YOUR source said that! So what, are you just making these facts up? Please, I would really like to know!



"Where, may I ask, are you getting these "facts?""

I will post them at the bottom of this round.

Hmm... I didn't happen to see your fact about "fifteen percent of men are sterile" in any of those sources! Nor did I see your fact "Only half of assailants penetrate her body and/or deposit sperm in her vagina" anywhere! So again, we see you simply making this stuff up!



"There are many methods of birth control in today's world. You can attempt natural birth control, by only having sex during ovulation. Or condoms can be used to prevent the flow of sperm. Also, pills such as daily pills or morning after supplements can eliminate the zygote. However, what if the girl ovulates at an unexpected time? Or what if your condom breaks, like some 4% of them do? Maybe the pill doesn't work either, as the chances of failure are always there? Abortion is a last resort for many people. A common "misconception" (no pun intended!) is that pro-choice people love abortion. Abortion is not a great thing, but in situations like teen pregnancies, it can be necessary."
Again, a fetus is biologically a member of the human species, therefore you cannot morally kill an innocent fetus. There are cases when birth control fails, but they will just have to deal with it. Besides, it was their idea to have sex in the first place.

No, no, no! A fetus is not biologically human. The fetus has a heart, skin, muscles, cartilage, a "brain," minor organs, and several other small parts similar to humans. But hey, so do dogs! So are dogs "biologically human?" No! Also,
Definition of a parasite:
parasite ( ) n. Biology . An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of.

Does the fetus grow, feed, and have shelter in the mother? Yes! Does it contribute to the mother's survival? No! So a fetus, technically speaking, is 100% parasite. Is it murder when you remove an unwanted parasite from your body? Of course not!

And it is not the user's fault when birth control fails. They should not "just have to deal with it," because if the fetus does become a human, it will probably have a poor life in the hands of inexperienced kids who may not even get to college in order to care for the child!



Rebuttals

New point- A fetus can feel pain
A fetus can feel pain at 8 weeks, and abortion causes alot of pain.

Well, it was YOUR SOURCE (http://news.discovery.com......) that said it takes 20, maybe up to 29 weeks! So you basically proved yourself wrong, and attempted to fudge false information! That should get you disqualified right there, my friend.




Conclusion

Thank you, folks, for listening to this heated debate for the past week or so. To wrap things up,

-Abortion is not murder. The definition of murder clearly states that murder is "of another human being," and according to nearly every source below (as well as my opponent's sources), a fetus is not by any means human.

-When you really take a good look at it, abortion is nothing more than a choice between a woman and her doctor. It is not the government's choice, not her parent's choice, and certainly not your choice, Con.

-Rape is something that happens a lot in today's society, and unfortunately, many of these victims become pregnant (contrary to the made up statistics of my opponent). So abortion, while not always happy, must happen if the woman does not want to continue to carry some random dude's seed.

-Birth control does not always work, but that is not the user's fault. The parents (and the baby) should not be punished for something they can't stop!

-My opponent uses made up info for his case!


Thank you. Vote Con

Debate Round No. 4
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
jesus christ you cry about everything dont you
Posted by 1dustpelt 4 years ago
1dustpelt
@imabench Actually, it is because I have more sources than my opponent, yet she gives sources to my opponent. WTF?
Posted by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
2 points isnt a votebomb dustpelt....
Posted by Zetsubou 4 years ago
Zetsubou
The only major concern here is that the Contender reduces the meaning life to the extent infantcide becomes morally permissible. As children cannot care for themselves at age 5 nor learn to reason until age 2.

Also, Contender made this a civil rights/women's rights issue, an idea I am strictly opposed to.
Posted by wiploc 4 years ago
wiploc
Good clear resolution: "Abortion is morally wrong."

However, you reversed your tags. The person who argues that abortion is morally wrong should be Pro. The person opposing the resolution should be Con.
Posted by sc9580a 4 years ago
sc9580a
In order for an individual to be considered wronged by an unethical act they themselves need to be capable, rationally thinking moral agents. To this end it would be only logical to assume that a fetus is not capable of rational thought, and thus not a moral agent. This can be tackled from a Utilitarian point of view as well. Since the fetus (up to a certain point) is incapable of feeling sadness, pain, or grief it is then a negligible variable when weighed into a utilitarian deduction. I believe that there are many emotional investments in this issue; however, this is where the problem lies. In roder to be considered a free thinking moral agent one must act rationally, and not under the guise of ones emotional disposition.
Posted by thomas44 4 years ago
thomas44
This is........an interesting debate.
Posted by Riversidegirl4life 4 years ago
Riversidegirl4life
Curious as to what the original name was. Anyway, looks like an interesting debate.
Posted by 1dustpelt 4 years ago
1dustpelt
Ok, I changed it.
Posted by LiberalJoe 4 years ago
LiberalJoe
I will accept the debate if you use a more logical, less generic name like "Abortion is/isn't moral," or "Abortion should/shouldn't be legal."
6 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 6 records.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 4 years ago
16kadams
1dustpeltLiberalJoeTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: poor arguments on both sides. S/G as pro had many mistakes. Arguments tied as both had pr arguments, and if anything where to bad to judge. I give sources to con due to the fact he had more and they seemed more accurate. I wished pro/con did better so I could have voted on args.
Vote Placed by jimtimmy 4 years ago
jimtimmy
1dustpeltLiberalJoeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:Vote Checkmark--1 point
Made more convincing arguments:Vote Checkmark--3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro claimed, falsely, that con's sources said that fetuses felt pain at 8 weeks. This was a decisive win for Con.
Vote Placed by imabench 4 years ago
imabench
1dustpeltLiberalJoeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:24 
Reasons for voting decision: I felt the Pro overall gave more convincing arguments since he even pointed out that the cons own sources contradicted his claims. Con did use sources even though he left out a lot of them, I gave conduct to the pro based on the con's reaction to the first question in round 4..... Debate could have been a lot better.
Vote Placed by KeytarHero 4 years ago
KeytarHero
1dustpeltLiberalJoeTied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:20 
Reasons for voting decision: Disappointing debate from both sides. Con was begging the question in his first round, and Pro was using lousy reasoning for why the unborn should not be classed as human (embryologists, the experts on embryos, consistently agree that a new, human life begins at fertilization, not viability). I'll also counter Mimshot's lame reason for her sources vote. Also, Pro and Con are switched in this debate. 1dustpelt should be Pro and LiberalJoe should be Con.
Vote Placed by Mimshot 4 years ago
Mimshot
1dustpeltLiberalJoeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:02 
Reasons for voting decision: Every time I see that rape-victims-don't-get-pregnant statistic I want to throw my computer at the wall, but I resist that temptation and just award sources points for the other side. Not terribly good arguments either way.
Vote Placed by 000ike 4 years ago
000ike
1dustpeltLiberalJoeTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:--Vote Checkmark3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: moot vote