The Instigator
NannaAshley
Con (against)
Winning
2 Points
The Contender
YoseVinC
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Abortion is murder

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
NannaAshley
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/20/2015 Category: Society
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 372 times Debate No: 70382
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (1)
Votes (1)

 

NannaAshley

Con

This is a debate about whether or not abortion should be legal. I will be arguing con abortion, and my opponent will be arguing pro.

We are taught that killing other people is wrong, also when they are smaller and weaker than us or more dependent on others. Yet still a lot of people think that abortion is alright. Abortion is killing another human, and as if that"s not bad enough in itself it"s killing an innocent life that has no way of defending itself. But of course, that is only true, depending on when life starts; at birth, or at conception. We are not certain on this matter, but one thing is certain, at some point the embryo get too developed, and we can call that a person. Already at the +8th week the embryo feels real pain, both psychological and physical pain. Just like a toddler, embryos are still a human being, a smaller and way more dependent human being, but none the less still a human being. This is a difference in degree and not kind. Therefor is abortion murder, and should be illegal.
YoseVinC

Pro

Hello. I accept this challenge and I wish you a good luck, Con. I am going to be the pro abortion of this debate. However, please note that I am doing this logically but not emotionally or maybe even morally. But here goes nothing.

First of all, I'd like to say that abortion is not a murder. The definition of a murder is to illegally kill a human being on purpose. However, embryos are not a human being. It is a post-human being. It is a developed post-human cells. So technically it is not a murder. Besides if you count an embryo as a human. Then that makes all women a murderer. Why so? Because each time we have a menstruation, it means we're killing a post-human cell that could actually be a human.

Next, I have an opinion that abortion is useful. Surely people aborts their child for a reason. Sometimes female teenagers get pregnant, dumped by the father and ruin their lives. Yes, it's the consequences that they had to face because they had sex but I am a big believer of second chances. I believe that all of us make mistakes. No matter how small or big it is. Therefore, a female teenager, no matter how bitchy she can be, she should have a second chance by getting an abortion.

Abortion can also be useful for poor people. Sometimes, even married couples had to abort their going-to-be child because economical problems. I think that is reasonable because it's better to remove the embryo before it is born and have to face with being poor and struggling with life. This goes to the female teenagers too. If an underaged couple had to quit school, raised a child together and built a family, it would be a total chaos. They would fight a lot and maybe even get abusive. The innocent child does not have to go through that if they aborted him/her.

I noticed that Con also said that embryo feels real psychological and physical pain. Embrios might feel it, no one actually really knows that for sure, but does the embryo remember it? No, it does not. People usually started to remember after the age of 3 or 4. I doubt that a one month child can remember anything, let alone an embryo. Therefore we do not actually harm them because they don't remember it. It's like breaking someone's heart but they never thought we did. Maybe it's not right to do so but it is the mother's right after all because if she didn't want to abort him then surely she wouldn't even consider it.

Therefore, my conclusion is just because people thinks abortion is cruel and is considered as a murder, it doesn't mean it's a crime. You might be saying that killing a going-to-be human is a crime but does it go the same with animals and/or plants? Just because we're on top of the food chains, doesn't mean we don't get a natural selection. You either have to ruin their life or let them ruin yours.
Debate Round No. 1
NannaAshley

Con

It seems a bit backwards that abortion can"t be classified as murder, by the simple reason that it"s not currently illegal. An embryo is an early stage in the development of a newborn, and it should count as a human being right after conception. It"s from this stage and on that the human-to-be begins to develop, and that"s why you can"t say that all women murder a post-human, an unfertilized egg would never develop into a human. And besides that, it"s not like women have a chose about their menstruation, it just happens naturally. Obviously abortion too is not murder, if it happens as a miscarriage or spontaneous abortion, since this is the way our species get natural selection around the unborn.

You"re talking about getting second chances. I want to clarify that I"m not against this statement, and believe that people should be able to get second chances in society. However we have to still take care of those who can"t defend themselves. Article 3 in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights state that "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person" this means that we should always preserve the life and security of a human being, even if it means that we cannot give that "second chance" to teenage girls to maintain their earlier lifestyle.
This is also extends to the poor family example. The right to life is still stronger than not having to grow up in a poor family. Even if there might be more problems than in a less poor environment, and even if they have to fight through some of the limits that poverty will give, there"s no doubt that it will most likely not be a life of purely sad memories. Being poor doesn"t mean that your life is worth less than others.

Lastly I noticed that pro came with the argument about whether or not embryos feel pain during an abortion. As a matter of fact it appears as if they do (1). And yes it"s true that no one would be able to remember what happened to them during that time of their life. Even less would remember the feeling of getting aborted, well obviously, since they died during this process. But even if a child would not be able to remember anything all the way to 3-4 years, does not justify us as grownups to expose these innocent children for unnecessary pain.

(1) http://www.mccl.org...
YoseVinC

Pro

So you're admitting that abortion is not a murder. I don't know if that's a win or not for me but you're agreeing with the pro of the title. However, I'd still debate your other statements.

Embryo is a potential human. However about 10 to 20 percents of embryo ends in miscarriage. Every human was once an embryo but not every embryo is going to be a human. Just like an unfertilized egg is. Unfertilized egg is a potential human. It is in fact a potential embryo which indirectly makes it a potential human. Yes, unfertilized egg has less chances of being a human than an embryo but they are both potential human. It's like saying that A has a sin of lying, B has a sin of murdering, yet A does not sin while B does. They both "have sins" even though A is more acceptable than B.

Of course, women could not have a choose with their menstruation and it happens naturally. But sometimes, so do embryos. I know that sex is intended or does not happen naturally but what about all the teenage girls who gets pregnant because they were raped? What about girls who have to sold theirselves to become sex slaves and get pregnant? It's not something that they wanted.

"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person." Everyone. Of course. Every human or post/potential human. Just like the unfertilized eggs, sperms and all embryos. We could never make everyone happy, you know? Besides, it is up to the mother anyway right? If the teen mom wants to sacrifice her child so she could have a second chance, why not? Let's say a 15 years old got pregnant and aborted her child. Why would it be wrong? Imagine being in the child's place. He/she might have to be raised without a father, most likely to be in a poor condition, possibly to be disowned by his/her mom's family, being called out as "love child", etc. Don't you think it's too much? It also sacrifices the mother's future and dreams. Do you really think sacrificing all these for a life of a child who might end up hating herself/himself? Like comegys59's comment said, a girl's life worth more than a potential human's life. It is also a woman's right to decide things like having her own stomach as a 9-month-home of a love child that could sacrifice her own future and whole life.

Anyway, thank you for the link. However it said that after 20 weeks old unborn babies can feel pain. That means around 5 months old. Reminder that abortion is illegal to several states in the US when performed after 18 weeks old. Average abortions are performed during 6 weeks old which mean less pain and consciousness for the unborn. Also, it might be unnecessary for us but what about for the teen moms? Necessity is relative. Remember, any woman would be happy to bear a child of her own IF it's the right time and does not destroy her future and all of that. I remind you that it is the woman's right to do so.

Note:
I apologize that I do not have links to these informations because you can just google it and it will pop right up.
Debate Round No. 2
NannaAshley

Con

I'm only "admitting" that as the law is currently, technically you can't define abortion as murder. However this is only due to the fact that abortion is currently legal. If it was illegal there would be no doubt in defining it as murder. I do find that this whole argument for why you can't call abortion murder wierd, but it's in the way that the word "murder" is defined. However I still believe that abortion is wrong, becuase it's killing a future human being, even if I can't directly call it a murder.

There is a difference between what a womans body naturally select to do, and the act of choosing to interfere in a pregnancy. This is where the killing part happens. It's like dying a natural death, instead of being killed by another person. For adults there is too a difference between dying from old age and getting shot by someone else.

You're saying something about why mothers who want to sacrifice their child should be able to do so. My short answer to this is that sometimes we as a society have to make certain choses in order to protect those who are weaker than most and those who do not have the voice to speak for themselves. Where would our society be if we didn't once in a while make decisions to protect these people?
Just because they are smaller and more dependant on other people taking care of them dosen't mean we can just get rid of them, even when they are seemed as unwanted. You don't just get rid of a child that have already been born, why should you get rid of a child in development.
YoseVinC

Pro

Of course, abortion is not murder even though maybe it could be RELATIVELY wrong. However, that is not the point of the title. By making the title "Abortion is murder", you are suggesting that abortion is murder even though it is actually not. It would be a different case if you made the title "Abortion is wrong". Also, I'd like to say that abortion IS illegal if it was performed when the embryo started to develop feelings of pain and senses. So if you call that abortion isn't a murder and it is weird, then you should rethink because grown-ups do think about what the embryo would feel if we took their right to live.

Yes, I do understand your point. But I also have a point of view that abortion is a form of voluntary natural selection. Let's say someone is about to strangle you to death but you grabbed the nearest knife and stabbed him. He died and you felt like you did a horrible thing. It is in fact a form of self-defense. You might be doing it voluntarily but the intention of the action is self-defense. So is abortion. If a young girl does not want to be judged or throw her life away, she can abort the baby and that is not wrong or a crime. It is her choice to make. It's either she want to defend herself or if she want to just give up on life.

You're saying that we have to make choices to protect those who are weaker, who are the minority. But look at the pro abortion's point of view. These views are the minority. People keep talking about morality but then they start to treat others like craps. Yes, I know the morals are important to keep but we still have to look out for ourselves because sometimes no one wants to stand up for us. Again, imagine having a love child and people started treating you like craps. There were once an social experiment where a perfect, beautiful, genius, and friendly girl faked her pregnant. Everyone loved her but when the rumors spread, they started to bully her, push her around, treat her like garbage and let's say if it was real, do you think it's healthy for the girl AND the baby?

Yes, an embryo does not have the voice to speak for themselves. But what about the mother? They have the voice but people don't listen to them. Whatever choices they make, they are wrong. They will be judged, they will be unaccepted by the society. We can't always give people what they want, we don't. Why? Because everything is relative and all we can do in the end of the day is to make ourselves happy with a choice that we have to make. And again, that is the mother's right.

In my opinion, these developing children are not seem as unwanted. They are unwanted. If they are not, then no one would even consider aborting them. And here's 2 major reasons why you don't get rid of a child that has already been born and get rid of a child in development:
1. Killing born children is illegal while abortion is relatively not.
2. Born children have developed emotions and full senses while let's say 5 weeks old embryos don't which mean it will hurt less for both the baby and the mother.

I apologize for any logically wrong statements. I would say morally wrong statements but morally is more relative since it come from the hearts. Thank you for reading these very long and boring debates.
Debate Round No. 3
1 comment has been posted on this debate.
Posted by comegys59 1 year ago
comegys59
Laws against abortion kill women.To prohibit abortions does not stop them. When women feel it is absolutely necessary they will choose to have abortions, even in secret, without medical care, in dangerous circumstances. In the two decades before abortion was legal in the U.S. it's been estimated that nearly a million women per year sought out illegal abortions. Thousands died. Tens of thousands were mutilated. All were forced to behave as if they were criminals.
Legal abortions protect women's health. Legal abortion not only protects women's lives, it also protects their health. For tens of thousands of women with heart disease, kidney disease, severe hypertension, sickle-cell anemia and severe diabetes, and other illnesses that can be life-threatening, the availability of legal abortion has helped avert serious medical complications that could have resulted from childbirth. Before legal abortion such women's choices were limited to dangerous illegal abortion or dangerous childbirth.
A woman is more than a fetus.Some people argue these days that a fetus is a person that is indistinguishable from the rest of us and that it deserves rights equal to women's. On this question there is a tremendous spectrum of religious, philosophical, scientific, and medical opinion. It's been argued for centuries. Fortunately, our society has recognized that each woman must be able to make this decision, based on her own conscience. To impose a law defining a fetus as a person, granting it rights equal to or superior to a woman's " a thinking, feeling, conscious human being is arrogant and absurd. It only serves to diminish women.
Being a mother is just one option for women. Many hard battles have been fought to win political and economic equality for women. These gains will not be worth much if reproductive choice is denied. To be able to choose a safe, legal abortion makes many other options possible. Otherwise an accident or a rape can end a woman's economic and personal freedo
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 1 year ago
dsjpk5
NannaAshleyYoseVinCTied
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Total points awarded:20 
Reasons for voting decision: Only Con had sources, so they're the most reliable.