The Instigator
budding_demonologist
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
BrettBoelkens
Con (against)
Winning
5 Points

Abortion should be considered as murder

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
BrettBoelkens
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/28/2018 Category: Health
Updated: 2 weeks ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 322 times Debate No: 116942
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (1)

 

budding_demonologist

Pro

I believe that abortion should be considered as murder. I define murder as the voluntary termination of another life.
BrettBoelkens

Con

First, Refer the definition of murder from Oxford Dictionary; the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another, Because murder is not the same is killing, One must diferentiate between just and unjust killings of another human being, And consider potential malice. This is why we have distinctions such as voluntary or involuntary manslaughter, Capital punishment, Or murder, They aren't all lumped together in the same category. Abortion isn't prosecuted as murder in the vast majority of western democracies.

Second, Most of the West, Whether it be the US or Europe, Allows abortion in specified circumstances, Meaning that it is lawful as according to the state. As according to the Chicago Tribune, 1/4 American women have had an abortion by the time that they are 45. If abortion was to be proscuted as murder, Give or take 41 million Americans would be incarcerated for first degree murder. The impacts of such would be twofold. First, The US economy would almost certainly crash as the US has lost an eighth of its labor force, And as America is the world's largest economy and acccounts for 25% or so of the world GDP, The global econmy would crash, Wrecking havoc and chaos throughout the world. Second, Women's rights would be devastated, As equal representation of men and women in the labor force would be a thing of the past because of the millions incarcerated or on death's row.

If one wishes to think that abortion is murder, One must think that vast swaths of America's daughters, Sisters, Aunts, And wives should be sitting in a jailcell next to the serial killers and rapists. Till that is the case, No reasonable person should say that abortion is murder.
Debate Round No. 1
budding_demonologist

Pro

I'm sorry for my unclear definition, And I agree with yours. I believe that abortion should become illegal, Become discouraged, Alternatives should be encouraged, And those who participate in abortion should be charged with murder. I agree that we shouldn't just enact a law like this without warning, But rather we should start by discouraging it, And give a fair warning before the law is implicated. After that "cut off point" than those who have abortion should be charged.

Obviously we shouldn't prosecute all people who have committed abortion ever, But rather those who commit it after the law I say passed.

Once abortion is considered "unlawful" than there is nothing to stop it from being considered "murder".

I'm sorry that I was unclear about the definition, And my stance.
BrettBoelkens

Con

First, My opponent has agreed to the Oxford Dictionary definition which defines murder as the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. I point this out, As under Roe v. Wade and other laws, Abortion is granted legal status, Meaning that according to the definitions he has agreed to, Abortion is not murder, And has provided no real reason to the contrary.

Second, My opponent has provided no reason why abortion should be discouraged, Whether it be practical or moral reasons. If one chooses to criminalize abortion to discourage it, As my opponent does, One will only lessen the safety of women and cause unnecessary deaths and complications. As according to the Independent, Doing so has no impact on the number of terminations, Only moving said abortions underground with dramatically less safety precautions leading to the deaths of mother's. If laws did anything to stop abortions, May I ask why there are approximately 25 million illegal abortions occur every year. Similarly to illicit drugs, People will still commit abortions regardless of it's legality. In fact, NBC has found interestingly enough that abortion rates decline when abortion is legalized. The impacts of this are twofold. First abortions would still continue, Meaning the aforementioned problems of US economic collapse and the ridding of women rights would still occur, Perhaps to a lesser degree. Second, Maternal mortality and infection would rise, As illegal abortions without said safeguards and medical precautions would still occur. Those who suffer complications wouldn't want to seek public medical attention for complications as her body would be the equivalent of a crime scene.

In short, Abortion is not, And should not be considered to be murder, Unless the consequences be damned.
Debate Round No. 2
budding_demonologist

Pro

Whilst you do bring up good points I believe that abortion should be considered unlawful, And thus become murder, Because you are terminating the life of human being (albeit with maliciousness. ) I do understand that abortion could be driven underground, And clearly shouldn't be, But if people are charged for murder for committing underground abortion the public will have a much clearer view of what right and what's wrong. This will surely be benificial in the long run.

We should also discourage underground abortion, Because clearly if these women are committing it they don't understand the harmful effect that it will have upon them.

I also bring up an article about a man kicked that stomach of a pregnant woman causing her to lose her babies. That man was charged with murder. This shows that clearly those unborn children do classify as human beings and killing them isn't legal. The affect that this man had on those children is the same affect that abortion does.

https://www. Independent. Co. Uk/news/uk/crime/muslim-pregnant-woman-kick-david-gallacher-racist-stomach-lose-baby-samsam-haji-ali-bletchley-a7753591. Html
BrettBoelkens

Con

Recall how in opening statements it was argued by myself that by the prosecution of abortion as murder, 1/4 of American women would be incarcerated for abortions, Which would cause a worldwide economic recession and be devastating for women's rights. Not only has my opponent done little to nothing to argue against this, The consquences of a global economic crash outweigh anything my opponent could say about the morallity of abortion; one only needs to look at 2008 to see why. Women's rights are too, Much more important, As first, There's aproximatelly 3. 5 billion of them or so, As compared to miniscule number of human embryos, And second, As argued by the critically acclaimed book by Steven Pinker (of which Bill Gates has said was the most important book he has ever read) Better Angels of Our Nature, The empowerment of women has heavily contributed to the global decline in violence, Meaning that reversing said trend would bring forth violence in vast swaths, Causing global chaos.

Too recall how my opponent agreed with the definition for the Oxford Dictionary which states that murder must be the unlawful premediated killing of one human being by another. By definition, Abortion almost all of the West is by definition, Not murder, As it currently has a legally protected status. This too, My opponent seems to have no response to, And frankly it's too late for one now.

Several problems with what was said by my opponent in the prior round are present.

First, The 2017 article from the Independent entitled "Man charged with kicking pregnant woman in the stomach cries outside court" was said by opponent to say that the man was charged with murder after kicking a woman in her stomach causing her to miscarry, Showing how unborn children qualify as human beings under the eyes of the law. However, If one happens to read the article, It clearly doesn't say that, As medical professsionals found that both she and her baby were unharmed, He wasn't charged with murder (rather reckless endangerment and attempted assualt, Which he did do after she pushed him onto the ground after bumping into one another), And didn't establish a legal precedent. Even if the article said everything my opponent said it did, This was prosecuted in NYC, Not federal, Or even state court. Compare this to Supreme Court decsions such as Roe v. Wade, Which established that the 14th amendment's right to privacy protected a woman's right to abortion till a fetus' viability.

Second, My opponent states that we should discourage abortion by criminalizing it. However, Recall the aforementioned article from the Independent which argued that doing such only serves to move abortion underground, Where the medical regulations and practices are scanty at best, Causing multitudes of mothers to suffer complications and infections, Along with the potential death of both the mother and child. Even if one believes that abortion is morally abhorrent and sinful, Making said action criminal does nothing to stop it (again, Much like drugs).

Third, Argues that abortion has a harmful effect on women, Yet brings to no evidence to substantiate this claim, And should be ignored for the same reason.

Therefore, We may begin by asking, And I'm asking you as well as my opponent when you consider your voting; is it good for the world to imprison millions of women, For what frankly is a victimless crime? Is it good for the world to reinstitute women to an under caste status, By ending equal representation in not only the workforce, But society as a whole? Is it good for the world have mothers and children die from illegal abortions, Simply to try to discourage the act itself? To cause another economic crash likely worse than 2008, Having the entirety of the world suffer simply so one can uphold a supposed moral high ground? I say it is not, And frankly, Any thinking person should do the same.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by John_C_1812 2 weeks ago
John_C_1812
Abortion is an admission of guilt made by a person that is transferable as a self-incrimination of the crime being admitted publicly. A united state set by constitutional principle to remove the self-incrimination is female specific amputation.

The wording of abortion and regulation built around it is/was/ and will be one of the greatest threats ever made on the United State of public voting in any democracy. It is not the act of murder, It is the public description to an intellectual description of murder. The word how it is used claims an office end of life will take place while in fact the word is not even used in its proper context.
Posted by budding_demonologist 2 weeks ago
budding_demonologist
I know right, It so weird. . .
Posted by BrettBoelkens 2 weeks ago
BrettBoelkens
I don't know why capitalization was added randomly, I didn't type it that way. Please forgive me.
Posted by jcer8926 2 weeks ago
jcer8926
I would add that murder is the voluntary termination of human life. Human life begins at conception, Therefore, Abortion is murder while killing animals is not.

By the way, The beginning of human life being at conception is the only logical starting point. At conception a new person is created that is genetically distinct from both their mother and father. That person begins to develop and does not cease development throughout the pregnancy.

Anyway, I wish to respond to some of the common objections.
What about abortion in the case of rape or incest? My response is that, While certainly tragic, You do not murder the unborn child for the crimes of their parents. You are absolutely free to seek a number of other alternatives such as adoption, But murdering the unborn child is out of the question. By the way, Abortion in cases of rape/incest are a very small percentage of those abortions committed. It is still an objection worth answering, But it is misleading to portray that as a primary reason for people having abortions.
Here's the toughest objection I've come across. What about abortion in the case of the mother's life? My response is simply to do everything possible to preserve life (both mother and child). There are cases with even ectopic pregnancies surviving. A baby may sadly be born still or may be born too premature to survive. However, I am not going to murder a child.
Posted by asta 2 weeks ago
asta
Although I'm pro life,

"I define murder as the voluntary termination of another life. " Does this makes people who kill farm animals murderers? What about people who step on bugs?
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by ThoughtsandThoughts 1 week ago
ThoughtsandThoughts
budding_demonologistBrettBoelkensTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: Pointing out that "murder" has a legal connotation, con shows that abortion should not be considered murder. Pro did not show that abortion should be illegal. Pro said that, "I do understand that abortion could be driven underground, And clearly shouldn't be, But if people are charged for murder for committing underground abortion the public will have a much clearer view of what right and what's wrong..." -- but pro never provides evidence for why abortion is wrong.