The Instigator
Amphia
Con (against)
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The Contender
Arganger
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points

Abortion should be illegal

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/5/2018 Category: Health
Updated: 6 months ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 452 times Debate No: 107584
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (0)

 

Amphia

Con

Hi, I just love argumentation and would like to have a debate with someone. this debate doesn't have to be so structured, it's more of a conversation.

I believe that abortion should NOT be illegal because it infringes upon women's rights. I myself would never get an abortion but that doesn't mean I get to decide what other women do. Women have the right to do with their body as they see fit. A majority of women choose to have abortions because they are not ready to have a baby, can't support another being financially, and then there are the other cases where a woman is raped or giving birth will endanger their life. There is also the fact that making abortions illegal will just lead to women going through dangerous measure to abort the fetuses.
Arganger

Pro

As a woman, I see know reason for abortion to be seen as a right.

When an abortion takes place it is not just the woman's body affected, and the most major danger is to the unborn (Death).

In rape, lack of money, and not being ready, adoption is the better option. Babies are known to get adopted very quickly.

Abortions can cause:
Heavy bleeding
Infection
Death
Scarring
PTSD
And more.

http://americanpregnancy.org...
https://ramahinternational.org...

A persons right to do with their body as they wish is far more limited then that of a persons right to live.

For instance involuntary hospitalization of severely suicidal patients. In that case, someones right to choose what to do with their body is over ridden by their right to live, and in that case they would have only hurt themselves unlike abortion.

In the case of rape, if even the rapist doesn't get the death penalty, why should the innocent one die?

In every case, both the mother and child should be protected the best possible. Pregnancy centers all over
even already do.
Debate Round No. 1
Amphia

Con

First I will address your laundry list of effects of abortions. You mentioned heavy bleeding, infection, death, and scarring. I find that funny because those can also happen during a pregnancy. Here is another fact:

"In countries where childbirth is safe, 1 in every 15.000 women dies during childbirth. Less than 1 in every 200,000 women who use a medical abortion die, making medical abortions safer than childbirth and about as safe as naturally occurring miscarriages. This means that a safe abortion with Mifepristone and Misoprostol is always lifesaving."
Literally, it is more dangerous to go through childbirth than through an abortion.
https://www.womenonweb.org...

You also talked about how in the cases of rape, lack of money, or not being ready, adoption is the best option. However, if the woman is not ready or financially incapable of taking care of a baby and they decide to keep it, they have to pay the enormous hospital bill.

"On average, U.S. hospital deliveries cost $3,500 per stay, according to the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality Healthcare Cost and Utilization Project. Add in prenatal, delivery-related and post-partum healthcare, and you're looking at an $8,802 tab, according to a Thomson Healthcare study for March of Dimes."
Compare that to the cost of abortion which is $300 to $800 dollars. How is that even a better option?

But let's say the woman gives birth anyway and decides to put the baby up for adoption. Do you know how bad and problematic our adoption and foster care system is? All the cases of sexual, physical and emotional abuse? Children who die at the hands of bad parents? Giving up a child for adoption is a HUGE gamble, you don't know where they will end up. Maybe they might go to a good home but they could also go to a terrible home. is it better to abort them before they can think or feel? Or is it better to birth them and then send them into a world where there is a huge chance they will be unloved and treated badly? Just because they get adopted quickly does not mean they are going to the right people.
americanpregnancy.org/unplanned-pregnancy/abortion-pill/
www.parents.com/pregnancy/considering-baby/financing-family/birth-hospital-costs/

You also talk about how having an abortion is killing the unborn. I would like to mention how a fetus is not alive. It cannot think. it cannot feel. It is not alive YET. I think it is important to note that being alive is defined as to be "alert and active; animated". Would anyone describe a fetus as any of those things? No. Because they are not alive. And then there are the cases where a mother's life is in danger if she gives birth. Like when the fetus grows outside the correct area. Would you not want that woman to get abortion? Would you rather her die because the fetus is "alive"? If you consider a fetus to be alive, then is it better for two people to be dead than one?

You talked about how in every case a mother and child should be best protected. Is ruining people's lives (mother and child) protecting them?
And finally, you mentioned how a persons right to do with their body as they wish is far more limited then that of a persons right to live.
"For instance involuntary hospitalization of severely suicidal patients. In that case, someones right to choose what to do with their body is over ridden by their right to live, and in that case they would have only hurt themselves unlike abortion."
In that case, the person is actually trying to kill something that us living--themselves. A fetus as I have argued is not alive and thus makes your argument irrelevant.
Arganger

Pro

For my sake I'm going to break my arguments into segments.

Adoption

Babies rarely end up in foster care. Babies are adopted through private adoption agencies. Many adoptive parents want young children or babies so birth parents rarely struggle to find homes for newborns. They also are allowed to have control over who adopts their child, and open adoptions have been rising in popularity.A good portion of the time, either the adopting family covers all hospital costs or the agency does so.

http://buildingyourfamily.com......

https://adoptionnetwork.com......

I will get to your ethics question in next section.


Is an unborn human sapient?

It is hard to say truly for certian if an unborn child can think, or how much. The reason being we cannot go up and ask, and our understanding of how humans work is still limited.

Are they alive? For sure with very little doubt, that isn't the real question here. It's if they are far enough along to be seen as worthy of having rights.


Drawing that line at anypoint after an individual has formed has ethical implactions that need to be adressed first thing.

Brain development takes a long time, it could be easily argued that it begins at conception because at that point the embryo is taking many steps to get there already. At very most, it starts at week six, when the neural tube closes.

https://www.mayoclinic.org......

Because brain development continues into early adulthood, taking any spicific point of development as the bigaing of life calls into question the full humanity of young children, teenagers, and children with spicific disabilitys that have to do with that stage of development. For instance anencephaly, holoprosencephaly and spina bifida.


I believe therefore that it is the very fact of humanity that makes a human worthy of protection, rather then a developmental stage.

Some final points

Adoption may often be rocky but it doesn't ruin people's lives. I believe that the idea of something being life ruining is far over used. Even abused people can recover and in the end lead healthy lives. Abortion as a soultion to a problem such as abuse is in my opinion, victom blaming. It isn't the child's fault for existing, it is the abusers fault for abusing.I would like to save heath effects for later to increase our focus for now. How about round four?

-Tell me if the links don't work, posting this didn't work the first time so this is a copy/paste.
Debate Round No. 2
Amphia

Con

You said babies rarely enter foster care but this is untrue. While yes, adoptions can occur through private agencies, a large number of them also occur through the foster care system. In which children are placed in the system and then fostered and/or adopted. "More than 60% of children in foster care spend 2-5 years before being adopted. Some never get adopted."
https://adoptionnetwork.com...
You also said how women get to control who adopts the child though this is completely untrue. W Omen giving up their children sign contracts relinquishing parental rights and then after giving birth, give away the child without any say. If they were to decide they do not trust the adoptive parents anymore, it would be too late as they are legally not the parent anymore.

Are fetuses alive?
I would argue they are not. A good argument made by the Supreme Court (during Roe v Wade) is this:
"Personhood begins after a fetus becomes "viable" (able to survive outside the womb) or after birth, not at conception. [31] [32] Embryos and fetuses are not independent, self-determining beings, and abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, not a baby. A person's age is calculated from birth date, not conception, and fetuses are not counted in the US Census. The majority opinion in Roe v. Wade states that "the word 'person,' as used in the Fourteenth Amendment [of the US Constitution], does not include the unborn." If something is not viable, I would not argue it has rights.

You also talked about how now we have to question children and teens with disabilities and whether they are human. Of course they are, they have been born and are living. However, a fetus has not been born, it is not independent, and as the Supreme Court said, no one starts counting age until birth.

"Adoption may often be rocky but it doesn't ruin people's lives. I believe that the idea of something being life ruining is far over used. Even abused people can recover and in the end lead healthy lives. Abortion as a solution to a problem such as abuse is in my opinion, victim blaming. It isn't the child's fault for existing, it is the abusers fault for abusing."

You say that adoption doesn't ruin people's lives and that abused people can in the end lead healthy lives. Are you saying that it is better to give birth to a child, give it up for adoption and hope for the best, and then the child is mistreated or to terminate the pregnancy before the fetus can think or feel?

My original reasons for women choosing to end pregnancy were: "they are not ready to have a baby, can't support another being financially, and then there are the other cases where a woman is raped or giving birth will endanger their life." These women know that having a baby would ruin their life but also the life of the child. For one, the economic impact of having a kid is enormous. It is important to note that in areas where there is increased poverty, there is more accidental pregnancy due to bad sex education (or abstinence-only) or inadequate access to contraception. These women may be poor and cannot support a kid, they realize that giving birth is far worse than aborting.

No one is saying that the fetus is to blame for all the women's problems. What we are saying is that aborting in many cases is the best option compared to giving birth.

"I would like to save heath effects for later to increase our focus for now. How about round four?" That is completely fine by me, I think it's a good idea.
Arganger

Pro

Adoption

Adoption of infants is different in time then adoption of older children. Children five or older take an average of three years to get adopted, but for infants it is a different story. The wait is typically between two and seven years for a healthy infant, but that is for the parents. Free for adoption babies tend to get adopted almost immediately. The foster care system is normally for children who have been abandoned or abused, if someone is giving up their child of their free will, they normally go through a private agency.

This is why most people adopting an infant are willing to spend 20,000+ to adopt privately or overseas even though adopting from foster care is free.

http://www.adopt.org......

Are fetuses alive?

I put less weight on Roe vs Wade than many do, the reason being "Roe" ended up regretting this, and become a pro life advocate. Even starting her own ministry, "Roe no more"

The problems with the viability argument:

After birth a baby still cannot survive without it's mother, or other help.

After birth many babies still die for many reasons, some only live minutes.

Many people rely on machines, like ventilators to live.

The main reason age isn't counted from conception is because that can be hard to determine.

Birth is as arbitrary as anything else.

Different babies become capable of living outside the womb at different points, some never are.

Independence is not something easy to measure. Let's say, someone has lobar Holoprosencephaly, a seizure disorder, hydrocephalus, and severe developmental delays from Holoprosencephaly. For most of their basic needs they would rely on other people. Including likely several surgeries, and medication.

http://www.endroe.org......


Other stuff


I believe it is best to give any child every chance. Adoption isn't exactly hope for the best, as adoptive parents are required to go through a home study. It isn't easy to adopt with a criminal record, and most people who do adopt genuinely want the best for the children.

It really cannot be said for sure whether a fetus or embryo can think or feel, but what is known is no one will ever have that child again. Abortion doesn't allow for second chances. My mother had five children, she says each of us acted different in the womb.

Being poor isn't worse than being dead, being poor still means that you have a chance. Being dead means you get none. If a person feels they cannot take care of a child, I again, support adoption. In time I am also more than open to sex education, helping them gain access to contraception, and financial support for poor mothers. Pregnancy centers are also an option for many as I have seen first hand.

http://studentsforlife.org......;

One note before round four, I have seen an unplanned pregnancy save someone's life.

A young (twenty years old) drug addict who my mother helped out a lot in life, and is close friends with my sister. When she found out she was pregnant she was at first terrorfied and considered abortion even, but with support she chose life and managed to become fully clean for her daughter, quitting cold turkey. She has told me that if it wasn't for her daughter she is sure she would of died of an overdose by now. It also gave her the courage to stop hanging around men who had been sexually abusing her.

Her daughter saved her life, she had no money, was being sexually abused and coerced, she was on all kinds of drugs, but her daughter saved her life and turned it around. She is now in college, working hard to earn a degree with ADHD and dyslexia, all for her daughter. A local pregnancy center has been a huge help to her as well.

I am okay with abortion in the case that the mother has at least a fifty percent chance of dying if she does not. However, I don't consider it quite the same thing to save at least one of them instead of both dying, and killing one without need.

Now, for round four we will only focus on heath, so save arguments on this for the fifth and final round.


Debate Round No. 3
Amphia

Con

For this round we will be focusing on the health aspects of abortion as well as birthing. For me, it is pretty straightforward--abortion is safer than actually giving birth. I am not saying that every pregnant woman should just abort because it is safer, I am saying that people often bring up the negative effects of abortion without realizing that pregnancy causes more death every year.

Here are the facts I brought up in the second round:

"In countries where childbirth is safe, 1 in every 15.000 women dies during childbirth. Less than 1 in every 200,000 women who use a medical abortion die, making medical abortions safer than childbirth and about as safe as naturally occurring miscarriages. This means that a safe abortion with Mifepristone and Misoprostol is always lifesaving."
(The link is in round 2)

Here is an excerpt (edited for relevance and the link is below should you like to read the full article) with new information:

Abortion has a scary reputation, but that view isn"t founded on facts.

HUFFINGTON POST: 5 Things That Are More Lethal Than Legal Abortion
"According to a study from the National Institute of Health legal abortion has a .0006% mortality rate or 0.6 deaths per 100,000 procedures. This is a nice, neutral source to get a baseline.

Based on the .0006% rate from the National Institute of health, here are 5 things more likely to kill you than legal abortion in the US:

Being hit by lightning.
According to NOAA, you have a 1 in 12,000 (or .0008%) chance of being hit by lightning in the US over your lifetime...

Pegging out from using your cellphone while driving.
...According to the US Department of Transportation, it kills 6,000 people in the US per year. This makes it 3 times more likely you"ll die using your cellphone in the car than you would having a legal abortion - the odds are at .0019% per year...

Dying in a work-related accident.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics you are just over 5 times more likely to die at work (3.3 deaths per 100,000 people or .0033%) than you are to die from a legal abortion...

Death by colonoscopy.
... the odds of dying after a complication from a colonoscopy are at 1 in 16,318 according to an article from Annals.org. Even though a colonoscopy is 10 times more deadly than legal abortion, it"s still just mouse nuts - there"s only a .0061% chance of death by colonoscopy...

Having a baby.
Actually carrying a baby to term in the US is 90 times more likely to kill you than having a legal abortion. Seeing as how childbirth is the advocated alternative to abortion, doesn"t that underscore that the Texas case has nothing to do with women"s safety? According to a publication from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, there is a 1 in 1,800 chance of maternal death (.056%) for US women...

https://www.huffingtonpost.com...

While some parts of this article might have seemed a little absurd, they were all true and founded on statistics and facts. The stigma surrounding abortion being high-risk is unfounded. And if abortion is considered high-risk then childbirth, going to work, getting a colonoscopy, and going outside must be a death wish right?
Arganger

Pro

I will admit that it seems likely that someone is more likely to die in childbirth than in abortion, however deaths from abortion are likely under reported because it tends to happen after the person has left the clinic.

I'm going to make an argument that may be seen as tacky, but I'll try to keep it short.

1.3 percent of all abortions happen after the 21st week of pregnancy, and the youngest born child to survive was James Elgin Gill at 21 weeks and five days.

In other words in the us, unborn children capable of surviving out of the womb are killed in the US.

In 2012, that was 9,090 fetuses potentially capable of living outside of the womb killed.

1.3% may seem small, but remember the transgender population is only 0.6% of the US, but if they all died off there would be an uproar.

Some states still have no cut off age for abortion at all.

https://www.theatlantic.com...

Okay now I will go onto the not so tacky argument.

The woman's mental heath.

A woman that has an abortion is six times more likely to commit suicide than a woman who gives birth, and unlike abortion which increases the risk of suicide by a lot, giving birth is known to reduce the risk of suicide by as much as 20%.

http://www.lifenews.com...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Woman who have abortions have a 81% increased risk of mental health problems.

According to my source, "Women who had an abortion were 34 percent more likely to develop an anxiety disorder, 37 percent more likely to experience depression, 110 percent more likely to abuse alcohol, 155 percent more likely to commit suicide, and 220 percent more likely to use marijuana." - https://www.cbsnews.com...

Sadly, do to other factors it is hard for any study of both physical and mental health to figure out the cause, so as far as I can tell anyone who does a study ends up deciding the cause is what they personally agree with.I mean this both ways of course and have found this clear bias quite annoying while trying to find sources.

Many people do end up regretting their abortion, and many women as pressured into it.

"A 2000 study cited by Hush and prepaired by Dr. Brenda Major, a Professor of Psychology & Communications at the University of California, recorded that approximately 21% of American women who receive an abortion believed that their abortion did more harm than good. This percentage grew to 28% within two years of the abortion. This means of the one million women who have abortions each year in the US, more than 280,000 of them believe, within two years, that their abortion did more harm than good."

https://www.care-net.org...

Abortion can really hurt women.

https://www.lifesitenews.com...

I apologize for the lack of focus on physical health, but I was having difficulty finding any information on it that wasn't clearly tailored one way or the other. Not to mention information at all was scarce, so I hope you don't mind to much.

I look forward to the next round.
Debate Round No. 4
Amphia

Con

For the last round, I would like to crystallize my argument. This is simply because my opponent and I have both done enough rebutting and I would like to refocus the debate to our core arguments. I ask that my opponent also crystallize their own argument since this is the last round.

I do not think that abortion should be illegal for one huge reason:

It is an impediment on a woman's right to do with her body as she pleases.

Whether you agree with abortion or don't, making it illegal is the wrong solution. For one, it will just lead to women using more dangerous means to abort. And two, there are other ways to decrease abortion rates. Studies shave shown that bettering sex education and increasing the availability of proper contraception lowers abortion rates as less women are getting pregnant unexpectedly.

Making abortion illegal is unjust and can not be permitted. If you want abortion rates to be lowered, there are other ways to do this.
Arganger

Pro

I will also crystallize my arguments.

I strongly assert that abortion is almost never the best option, as adoption is a very real option and support exists for those up to raising their children.

A fetus is human.

That the life of a human, even one that cannot support itself, is worthy of equal protection under the law.

The right of an individual to live is stronger than that of an individual to do as they wish with their body.

Finally, that though other legislation and community efforts should not be discouraged (Even potentially free birth control), every life should be protected under the law regardless of situation of birth or conception.
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by John_C_1812 6 months ago
John_C_1812
So tell me why men and woman alike have to confess to a felony crime by legislation of law to address equal right. Isn"t that a drastic measure? The problem was a self-incriminating confession should have been placed before impartial judicial separation, or removed all together by woman to insure the general welfare.

Gender Specific Amputation is not a self-incrimination, nor can it be seen as an attempt to obtain control of a public trial dealing with Capital punishment.

Abortion describes something that has be witnessed to have already officially started. You need to find better word, or words to describe what may be taking place. Ones that do not make a criminal confession to a crime for the public to share as group confession publicly. Just an Constitutional idea to the New Organized crime bosses of tomorrow.
Posted by pi3.14 6 months ago
pi3.14
Please do take a look at these websites as they make great arguments as to why fetuses are alive and why you shouldn't abort them.
https://www.lifesitenews.com...
http://www.abort73.com...
You say fetuses aren't alive. They have their very own unique genetic code. They have the potential to grow, reproduce, etc. If you want, you could also do a debate with me if you would like to do so because I feel like I can defend the pro-life stance very well.
Posted by Amphia 6 months ago
Amphia
@DontArgueWithMe3333 thanks haha
Posted by DontArgueWithMe3333 6 months ago
DontArgueWithMe3333
I agree with you.
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