The Instigator
sjunk24
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
MrMaw
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Abortion should be legal

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
MrMaw
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/3/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 week ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 346 times Debate No: 116234
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (1)

 

sjunk24

Pro

Abortions should be completely up to the person that is pregnant. It is their body and they should be able to decide whether or not they would like to keep the baby. While putting a child up for adoption may be free, someone that is looking to adopt has to spend a lot of money just to be considered. Along with that, a lot of children are left unadopted. There are approximately half a million children (possibly adults, as well), currently in foster care. The mother would be expected to endure lots of pain during the nine months while being pregnant. Someone could never be fully aware of the financial situations of the expecting parents. Bills aren't cheap and caring for a child on top of that could put some in financial debt or make it nearly impossible to care for a child, either leaving them neglected, or there being no food, no power, etc. Contraceptives are not always effective either. Condoms, while they are roughly 85%-98% effective that doesn't cover for all the time. The right to decide on abortion is similar to telling a person whether or not they can get a tattoo. At the end of the day, it is their body and their choice and what they want to do with it should be up to them and no one else in society or otherwise should be able to have an opinion on that or change that.
MrMaw

Con

1.You contradict yourself, you say it's is there body and therefore their choice, but in the next you refer to it as "the baby". The baby has a separate blood type and DNA than the mother, it a different being than its mother, it is not HER body. Not because something is in inside of you means it IS you. If you're in a car, you are not the car.
2.There are many adoption foundation(example "Heart by heart" who offer to completely cover the medical and other bills.
3. That doesn't matter. Another living human should not have to suffer consequences because you messed up. Someone convicted of a crime and is innocent should not be charged just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Debate Round No. 1
sjunk24

Pro

I say "baby" merely for the sake of the argument so it is understood by both the person I am arguing with and the people that happen to view this argument. To avoid any further confusion, I will use quotation marks or use the term fetus for the rest of the argument.

1, You mention a foundation "Heart by Heart", and once I have viewed the website it says that it helps with the costs of medical bills, but it does not completely cover them. And I have already mentioned the countless amount of children in foster care, so that is not that valid of an option.

2. Anyone can be in the wrong place at the wrong time and no matter what you do you risk the chance of something that "could happen". You can't deny a simple form a pleasure in comparison to saying that they could get pregnant, although they may not want a "baby." That is similar to saying that you should not get in a car or get a license because you could get in a car crash. Or saying that someone should not go to work, because they could get fired. Everything in life is based on chances, and degrading one for another makes no sense.

3. Also, since you did mention adoption, I should bring in the matter that those that are "Pro-Life" do not seem to care about what happens to a child after they are born. There are plenty of children that will end up neglected in foster care, some that will age out of foster care, a wide variety of what could happen to the child while there. And if for any reason that instead of adoption, the parent decides to keep the "baby", and their financial situation was not in the correct place, then they are judged. If they have to go through some form of government assistance, such as Food Stamps or WIC. Tax-payers are then complaining about the fact that they are helping people that are deemed as "just too lazy."

4. To further add to the cost of caring for a child, once they are born. It is averaged that a family or a single parent would spend approximately over $300,000 during the course of 18 years. This does not account for the fact that the child could have a disability or medical issues. If they have some form of medical issues, then they will be spending a lot of time in the hospital consisting of more bills and putting others into financial debt, over something that you can not predict. If they are to have a disability, then it is likely that they could be unstable on their own, and won't be able to move out, adding on more costs to the parents over those years.
MrMaw

Con

1.Heart to heart will help pay your bills depending on your financial situation, the more poor you are the more they'll help. They also offer free housing and the fate of the child.

2. The child doesn't have a choice though, it's not his fault the girl had sex when she was 16. Sex may feel good but it comes with risks, I'm sure people could resist sex for the sake of them and for the sake of the baby. The baby never had a choice but you have the choice of getting the right size condom(condoms are most efficient when you actually try them out and see which size actually fits) or birth control or both. Killing someone without their choice and they haven't even lived outside of the womb yet, is not okay.

3. You can't predict things, you can't predict how the babies life will go. People like Bill Clinton and Marilyn Monroe and other celebrities were either adopted or reached the age of 18 and went out of foster care. Saying the child might have a bad life is not a valid reason. Also pro-life people do care, most of them at least. They see pro-choice people as either ending an innocent babies life, or the beginning of one. You wouldn't see me as a good person if I walked up to a birds nest, took the eggs the bird just laid and cooked them for my own benefit. I get it it's an extreme example but they're similar.

4. You raise a kid for enjoying parenthood, not because of the money. You may raise one if you are ready. You make it seem bad by mentioning the number $300,000 but that's over 18 years. They would be a full adult by then.
Debate Round No. 2
sjunk24

Pro

1. Even though it could possibly do so, the point is that you are still expecting a person to endure the 9 months and the pain of childbirth, which is immeasurably to no other.

2. Like I stated earlier, everything comes with risk. If a person chose to have sex at the age of 16, they are not permitted to purchase Plan B or anything, so if they didn't want to go through with abortion, they are limited, because of their options due to their age. And even if so, it's not like sex is an age thing or pregnancy is an age thing. No matter what age, some people may just not be ready or capable and that isn't something that can be up to someone else. I previously stated that condoms are 98% effective, but that is assuming that is everyone is perfect all the time, which is not common, so they're really only 85% effective. You also mention birth control, which is on its way of being less accessible for people, due to the backlash around Planned Parenthood. As far as a real-life experience goes, I know someone that was still impregnated, while she was on birth control and the guy was wearing a condom.

3. Of course, I am aware that you can't predict how someone's life will go, but that doesn't mean you can disregard the fact that for some people they are not as fortunate to lead lives as such. And to be fair, it may not be done exactly like that, but it is done. Animals are kept on farms and they are kept in unfair living condition and as soon as they give birth, the child is ripped away from them for them to provide us with some kind of food.

4. You're saying that you raise a kid to enjoy parenthood, but if a person is not ready and not stable enough to do it, they can not enjoy the parenthood, so yeah for some people it is about the costs. And even if you do enjoy the idea of parenthood, for a lot of people money is still an option. It is not a luxury to everyone to not have to worry about the costs of things. It's the idea of realism as opposed to optimism. And so what if they're adult by 18, you are still caring for the child up until 18, so that is valid. And not to mention that earlier figure does not include college, which parents are expected to provide for their children.

5. Again about the money issue which is not a luxury for a lot. the parent would have to work extreme hours to provide for their child because at the common hourly rate of today and the cost of things, most people need 2 jobs just to make it count and not account/feed other people. In this process, they have to either send their child to daycare or hire a nanny, which basically takes away a lot of the money they are attempting to bring in.

6. What if the mother is sick? While any treatment may not harm the baby, it could make it worse on the person expected to still give birth. Such as, if the mother is going through chemotherapy, which already leaves the person weak and to add childbirth on top of it, would be something that is way too stressful for someone.

7. You have yet to account for the chance if the person was raped. Are you truly expecting them to still go through the process, because of something that was out of their hands. Would that still be the recklessness of the parent, if so, I would like to know how?

Since I have completed my argument I would like to respond to a few of the comments in here as well to further adjust my points.

1. A woman does know what a fetus goes through their death. Murder is worse than rape and abortion should be classified as murder

The fetus does not feel anything. hence the reason why it is accepted for abortions.

2. "Who will take care of it, especially if raped by daddy at the age, oh say, 11?" The woman can set the kid up for adoption:

How would you possibly expect an 11-year-old to go through that amount of pain?

3. "Naturally this big slug of love is not going to be there for ANY support, and will hopefully be behind bores." The rapist should pay 2 payments of a $1,000,000 fine, the rape victim gets 1 payment and the state gets the other as tax revenue. If they can't pay, then they are a temporary slave to the government. They then get castrated after they paid or they slaved off their debt: Even though it draws away from the exact topic of abortion, it still raises a valid point.

Most victims do not come forward for the fear of them being attacked again or being denied in court, so the odd chances of someone actually being able to have it as you seem to have pictured is slim. Less than 35% of rapes are even reported to the police, which like I was stating that does not go into the actual trial. And are you also expected someone to raise a child that is as a result of rape? For some, that is very hard, because it will always remind them of that moment making it very hard to care for the child and not due to their lack of respect for their child, but for their mental stability.

4. "So who out there in this wide world of spurts will hap haphazardly take a lifelong investment with this youngun'?" An adoption center.

I have already mentioned the lines of adoption, but I see that you have other arguments in support of it, so I won't address those until I get to those points that you have made.

5. Along with that, a lot of children are left unadopted." http://www.adopt.org...... states that over 94% of kids who get set up for adoption get adopted within 4 years. Not only that, but since adoption costs a lot of money, it means that only rich people who want to are adopting

It is like you're using this article, but you are not fully aware of what it is stating. First off, this is only for the FY of 2012. It also says for those that exited in that year, so nowhere is it stating that 94% of kids get adopted. You are not aware of how many kids also entered that year or how many were already there in foster care. At the bottom, it also states that over 100,000 kids were still waiting for adoption, so how do you seem to figure that is an appropriate statistic?

6. "Bills aren't cheap and caring for a child on top of that could put some in financial debt or make it nearly impossible to care for a child, either leaving them neglected, or there being no food, no power, etc. " Then set the kid up for adoption. If you can't afford to take care of your family without the government, you don't deserve a family. You should set your kids up for adoption.

But the point is that they do not want a family and you are forcing them to raise one, because of your own opinion on what someone else should do with their body.

7. "The mother would be expected to endure lots of pain during the nine months while being pregnant." It's her punishment for having consensual premarital sex. She should have said no, or gotten an IUD and a condom and she should have made sure that her boyfriend knew how to use a condom correctly. If she was raped, she get get restitution that the rapist pays for.:

I have already covered rape previously in this argument, so I do not need to address that again. And you said it is their punishment for having consensual premarital sex, but you can have sex and still be married and also run the risk of getting pregnant.
MrMaw

Con

1. Even though though people do have to go through that, the point is that you are still expecting me to be okay with killing an innocent life

2.Like I stated earlier there is a risk but not a high one. I also stated there wouldn't be any risks if both partners just decide to not have sex in the first place. If you want to have sex do it for a child and if you're not be aware of the risks, but that doesn't mean that if the condom broke that someone else should suffer because of it. You're killing the baby primarily for yourself and that's a selfish act. Also if someone was impregnated with a condom and birth control, how long ago was this? She could have not taken it in a while, he could have had the wrong size condom or both or she lied for attention.

3. You just said we kill animals for food and our convince, a lot similar to abortion huh? Also comparing humans with animals is not correct. That's why there is a law that makes it possible for farmers to kill animals and for humans to kill other humans.

4. Again that's $300,000 dollars over 18 years, that's a long time. Also if you don't want the kid put them up for adoption. It is true adoption is more expensive than abortion but not by much. Ranging for $200-$1000

5. Read point number 4

6. Well if the mother has cancer or any other diseases she shouldn't have sex and should know the risks it comes with. Also the chance of dying while giving birth is less than 1% in america, specially if the mother has matured.

7. I was waiting for you to bring up that point, about 0.3%-0.6% of abortions are because of rape. That is less than 1%. Are you willing to add a law that calls for the murder of babies because less than 1% were raped. Obviously I'm not blaming the ones who got raped, of course not, but they should consider adoption. If they're life is in danger and she might die from giving birth, then I guess in extreme cases like these abortion should be an option. In a situation like this either the mother or the baby will end up dying, and I'm sure you'll agree with me it is more important to save the mother, but remember my point, less 1% of abortions are because of rape and less 1% of births end up in a death.

Responses to your extra arguments

1. Actually no, the fetus can feel pain as early as 8 weeks and if younger(most abortions happen with a suctions that rips the baby to pieces) the fetus will sense the suction and danger and will move around attempting to escape.

2. Read the end of point 7

3.Not an abortion issue but I'll discuss it. Rape is bad, period, and I think we need to make everyone know that they're never at fault and should always tell, but if they don't tell, how are we to know. Also, I personally think in most cases of rape, the rapist should be given the death penalty, this will probably lower rape numbers, probably I'm no expert. Again if an eleven year old girl was raped AND got pregnant (not very likely) I do believe abortion should be an option if her life is in danger. If adoption is possible and there is no financial or medical issues then I think she should take that route.

4.Not much to say here

5. You're right that number is closer to 50%-60% kids get adopted, but as I stated that doesn't mean there life will turn out bad.

6. No one is forcing them, put them up for adoption. Also it is not THEIR body, I thought I said that. Your body doesn't have different DNA and a different blood type. Also the mothers immune system might react to the different blood type, your immune system doesn't react against YOUR body, does it?

7. I've already countered this point

Also I know someone will say,"Oh it's just a clump of cells, it's not alive" According to NASA there is life on mars. You know what's on mars? A couple of bacteria and micro-organisms. If that's considered life, then why isn't a human fetus? And even if it is a clump of cells(which it isn't), that "clump of cells" is the beginning of a human life. Also, even the law indirectly states that a fetus is living human being. If you kill a pregnant woman it is considered a double murder.
Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Debating_Horse 5 days ago
Debating_Horse
Will vote soon.
Posted by missmedic 1 week ago
missmedic
It"s ironic that abortion laws are motivated by a desire to limit abortions, yet one of the best ways to reduce abortion is to liberalize or repeal anti-abortion laws. That"s not the only factor of course. The real key is to promote women"s rights, with particular attention to their reproductive rights. Most countries in western Europe enjoy a more pragmatic attitude towards sexuality and contraception, and strong support for women"s equality. Also, most abortions occur because women can"t afford to have a child, so governments can significantly reduce abortion numbers by building a more stable, prosperous society and making child-rearing economically feasible. There is no need for societies to defend fetal interests directly, as the best way to protect fetuses is to provide resources directly to pregnant women. When a pregnant woman is safe and healthy, so is her fetus.
Posted by asta 1 week ago
asta
@backwardseden

I apologize if I'm rude during my comments but I have a lot of them to do. I have to be quick.

"So they cannot possibly understand what a woman goes through oh say if she is raped" A woman does know what a fetus goes through their death. Murder is worse than rape and abortion should be classified as murder.

"Who will take care of it, especially if raped by daddy at the age, oh say, 11?" The woman can set the kid up for adoption.

"Naturally this big slug of love is not going to be there for ANY support, and will hopefully be behind bores." The rapist should pay 2 payments of a $1,000,000 fine, the rape victim gets 1 payment and the state gets the other as tax revenue. If they can't pay, then they are a temporary slave to the government. They then get castrated after they paid or they slaved off their debt.

"So who out there in this wide world of spurts will hap haphazardly take a lifelong investment with this youngun'?" An adoption center.
Posted by asta 1 week ago
asta
@mismedic

I apologize if I'm rude during my comments but I have a lot of them to do. I have to be quick.

"But a fetus is inside the woman and completely dependent on her" People on welfare are dependent on the government. This does not mean that we kill the people on welfare. The government could give them jobs that help the country.

"Further, pregnancy has a major effect on a woman"s body and emotional state" Her emotions ideally don't matter, facts do. Pregnancy has a major effect on her body however, it's just the woman gaining or losing weight. It's bad, but not as bad as the fetus getting killed. I would rather gain 100 kg than die, and I say this as an XC runner who needs to be fit. Better to lose my XC career than to lose my life.

"every pregnancy carries some risk of serious complication or death" It's a very small risk. For every 1 woman that dies from childbirth, there are about 10000 fetuses that die from the same number of abortions.
Posted by asta 1 week ago
asta
@sjunk24 (part 2)

I apologize if I'm rude during my comments but I have a lot of them to do. I have to be quick.

"You can't deny a simple form a pleasure in comparison to saying that they could get pregnant, although they may not want a "baby." That is similar to saying that you should not get in a car or get a license because you could get in a car crash. Or saying that someone should not go to work, because they could get fired. Everything in life is based on chances, and degrading one for another makes no sense."

Your work-fired analogy doesn't make sense. Your car-car accident analogy is inconsistent because most people need to drive for their work and most people within walking distance of their job either walk or they drive, but the accident rates for them are lower because they are driving less. The lifetime risk of getting into an accident is less then 1%. The rate of pregnancy from one time at sex is about 1% at reasonably best, and people tend to have sex at multiple times, therefore increasing the risk of pregnancy.
Posted by asta 1 week ago
asta
@sjunk24 (part 1)

I apoligize if I'm rude during my comments but I have a lot of them to do. I have to be quick.

"someone that is looking to adopt has to spend a lot of money just to be considered" Finding an adoption agency is easy. People in that situation could google it.

"Along with that, a lot of children are left unadopted." http://www.adopt.org... states that over 94% of kids who get set up for adoption get adopted within 4 years. Not only that, but since adoption costs a lot of money, it means that only rich people who want to are adopting.

Over 94% of kids who get set up for adoption get adopted and they get adopted to relatively well off families who want to adopt. How"s adoption bad?

"The mother would be expected to endure lots of pain during the nine months while being pregnant." It's her punishment for having consensual premarital sex. She should have said no, or gotten an IUD and a condom and she should have made sure that her boyfriend knew how to use a condom correctly. If she was raped, she get get restitution that the rapist pays for.

"Bills aren't cheap and caring for a child on top of that could put some in financial debt or make it nearly impossible to care for a child, either leaving them neglected, or there being no food, no power, etc. " Then set the kid up for adoption. If you can't afford to take care of your family without the government, you don't deserve a family. You should set your kids up for adoption.

I plan on responding to the pro abortion comments one at a time.
Posted by John_C_1812 2 weeks ago
John_C_1812
The problem is that the wording of Pregnancy abortion creates a self-incrimination by asking for public participation in a criminal admission to crime. Abortion is by innuendo saying a woman is officially stopping life by her order alone, though by the public debate it seeks permission form the public. The statement of admission is made regardless of if true, if not true, or if it has limited circumstances. And above all, woman are being directed to make the same admission by legislation of law.

The questions on abortion are not wondering if all woman need to make the admission in the first place. A majority of the questions are wonder what the suitable alibi would be, that would create a United State were all people self-incriminate themselves into the crime describe by the confession being made only.

Freedom of speech describes that the self-value of all crimes are not addressed by law when legislating pregnancy abortion alone. There are a number of laws that are not a form of murder that come into play. A person of constitutional obligation is incline to separate the self-incrimination form the confession made. A Female Specific Amputation is a demonstration to how this self-incrimination can be removed. The removal protects a woman, or limited groups of woman from the judgment of other woman by constitutional law. There are many medical treatments that can be describe for privacy as Female Specific Amputation.
Posted by missmedic 2 weeks ago
missmedic
Men deserve a say in the abortion issue, just not an equal one. A common anti-abortion claim is that there"s no difference between a newborn and a 9-month fetus, therefore a fetus should have legal rights. But a fetus is inside the woman and completely dependent on her, which makes all the difference in the world. A pregnant woman cannot hand over her fetus to someone else to take care of, like she could with a newborn. Further, pregnancy has a major effect on a woman"s body and emotional state, and every pregnancy carries some risk of serious complication or death. The crucial decision to take on that risk"no matter how small"can only be decided by the pregnant woman herself.
Posted by backwardseden 2 weeks ago
backwardseden
Figures that the two tumbleweeds of this debate going against pro are male. So they cannot possibly understand what a woman goes through oh say if she is raped. Is she to keep this baby? Or not? Who will take care of it, especially if raped by daddy at the age, oh say, 11? Naturally this big slug of love is not going to be there for ANY support, and will hopefully be behind bores. Sorry bars. So who out there in this wide world of spurts will hap haphazardly take a lifelong investment with this youngun'? Or what happens if the mother does not want the baby because oh let's say she's a drug user and thus when it is known that the baby is to be given birth, it will be addicted to drugs? Indeed there are quite a few scenarios where abortion MUST be legal. But I also agree with pro that its a woman's body...
Posted by Sonofcharl 2 weeks ago
Sonofcharl
Well said MrMaw.
Short and sweet and indisputable.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by DrunkHoboSniper 1 week ago
DrunkHoboSniper
sjunk24MrMawTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: I vote Con on what I will call the framing of the debate. In the Con's first round they bring up some points that are pretty damming just by themselves but become round winning when the go dropped by the Pro. The first is that the baby has a different blood type than the mother, the second is that it has different DNA. When these go unanswered by the Pro that means I have weigh the fetus as human life. So on the framework the Con is saying nothing outweighs a human life and I have to weigh it as such when the Pro does not make a single arg on this point. The pro's counter is that the pleasure from sex is justification for abortion but I cannot grant the Pro that when they are losing that a fetus is a life. On the pro's side of things I feel that Pro won the cost of having a kid but, it does the Pro no good when you are losing the framing. To win the Pro needed to win why the termination of pregnancy outweighs a life or win why a fetus isn't a life. The Pro did neither.