The Instigator
Ethanthedebater1
Pro (for)
Losing
28 Points
The Contender
knick-knack
Con (against)
Winning
35 Points

Abortion should be made illegal, except in cases of severe deformities and to save the mother's life

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/28/2008 Category: Politics
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 3,308 times Debate No: 5832
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (12)
Votes (11)

 

Ethanthedebater1

Pro

Round One will just be for schematics.

Just join for round one, and I will post my argument in Round 2.
knick-knack

Con

Alright thanks Ethan.

I think that the definitions are blatantly obvious.
We all know what abortion is.

Illegal... against the law

Except... illegal, but these cases are acceptable

Severe deformities- Meaning what, like a genetic disease, such as down syndrome. This is the only question I have.

Save the mother's life.. I get it, if the mommy's going to die then the baby can be aborted by licensed physicians.

No semantics in this debate I presume. The topic is what it is.
I will wait for my opponents argument and then post my argument.

Your turn...
Debate Round No. 1
Ethanthedebater1

Pro

Okay, here we go...

Contention 1: The FLO argument of Don Marquis shows that abortion is immoral.
The FLO argument says that killing a person is wrong because it deprives the person of a future of value. This can be extended to fetuses. Fetuses, if left unaborted, will almost certainly have a future of value or future like ours (FLO). While the fetus has no rights, it does have a future that you, I, and it will surely value.

To put this in perspective, imagine this. You are in a forest, and there are 15 shrubberies. 14 of them have men in them. One has none. A man has offered you a lifetime supply of Kit-Kat bars if you shoot one of the shrubberies. While the shrubberies alone have no value, no rights, et cetera, the shrubberies have a potential person. By shooting we likely deprive that person of a FLO.0

Contention 2: Abortion is unnecessary--except in the cases listed in the title.
If the fetus is normal, healthy, et cetera, there is no reason to abort it. The mother is in no danger. If she doesn't want the fetus, she can carry it to term, and then put it up for adoption.

While you may say that adoption is implausible because there isn't enough demand, then how do you explain surrogate mothers that are paid to have children, and many foreign adoptions with long waiting lines. If we make the US adoption market efficient and desirable, we will have no problem.

For these reasons I affirm.
knick-knack

Con

Thank you to my opponent.

I am against the topic of Abortion should be made illegal, except in cases of severe deformities and to save the mother's life, for the following reason which is also in direct negation of PRO contention 2 that states "Abortion is unnecessary--except in the cases listed in the title" and the reason is...

Abortion should be made illegal, except in cases of severe deformities, to save the mother's life, AND FOR VICTIMS OF RAPE.

The reason for this is because the victim of the horrendous crime of rape has not chosen to have sexual intercourse and should not incur the consequences of that action.

Therefore the mother should not have to keep the child.

For this reason I am in the negation for this topic.

To my opponent- Kk
Debate Round No. 2
Ethanthedebater1

Pro

I thank my oppoent for accepting this debate, and for his speedy reply to my argument.

His argument boils down to my disclusion of rape in the topic.

He says that "...the victim of the horrendous crime of rape has not chosen to have sexual intercourse and should not incur the consequences of that action."

While rape is traumatizing and horrible, it does not mean that the fetus has no FLO. The FLO still matters.

For example, if someone tells me that I have to take care of a random baby for nine months, or else the baby will die, I did not choose to take in the baby, but that does not make it moral for me to let the baby die. I would much rather ot have to take care of it, but, nonetheless, its life has value, and therefore, I cannot get rid of it.

My opponent dropped my arguments about the FLO, and therefore, you FLOw them across. That means that if a rape fetus has a FLO, it is immoral to abort it.
knick-knack

Con

Rebuttal-

"its life has value, and therefore, I cannot get rid of it."

Does a baby with deformities not have value?
Yes their lives do have value. Even though they might not look or talk or understand life like us they still have a life that they can live and have a interaction with others who will care for them and show them affection. So yes their lives do have value, "and therefore, I cannot get rid of it."

"if a rape fetus has a FLO, it is immoral to abort it."

No. It does not matter if there is a question of morality. Rape, as I have said before is a case where there is a victim who has not chosen to have sexual intercourse. The woman then has a chose to keep or abort the baby. There is no question of it being right or wrong.

To my opponent-

Kk
Debate Round No. 3
Ethanthedebater1

Pro

Overview time!!

You vote Pro because:
1. My opponent dropped my defense of both of my contentions. So, right there, I have two contentions flowed accross, so you consider the round that way.
2. My opponent basically argued MY side with the deformities issue. He said that "...they still have a life that they can live and have a interaction with others who will care for them and show them affection. So yes their lives do have value, 'and therefore, I cannot get rid of it.'" So, he argued for my side.
3. He is completely off-base with the rape argument. If someone randomly stuffs a baby in my arms, I can't just throw it to the ground because I don't want it. No, of course not. I have the obligation to take the baby to an orphanage or a police station. It's the same with a rape-induced pregnancy. The woman must carry the fetus to term, and then she can get rid of it. The fetus is innocent, and it can't be punished for its father's sins.

So, for these reasons you vote PRO.
knick-knack

Con

Here we go-

1. "My opponent dropped my defense of both of my contentions."
"Contention 2: Abortion is unnecessary--except in the cases listed in the title."

I have argued that there are necessary cases that aren't listed in the title, such as rape.

2."My opponent basically argued MY side with the deformities issue."

It is not just PROs side of the argument but also my side as well.

3. "He is completely off-base with the rape argument."
"If someone randomly stuffs a baby in my arms... I have the obligation to take the baby to an orphanage or a police station"

No you do not have any obligation. You did not choose to take in the baby. There is no obligation to do anything for the baby. It is not you baby to take care of, because you did not take the actions to acquire that child.

"The fetus is innocent, and it can't be punished for its father's sins."

Even though the fetus is innocent it doesn't mean that the mother should have to carry the child. The mother did not choose to have the child and is innocent. So the mother...

Should not be punished for the rappers sins, in having to be pregnant. She did not make a choice, so then she should be given a choice on whether or not she has an abortion.

Thank you to Ethan for the debate and I hope to debate again in the future.

That is why you vote CON.

-Kk
Debate Round No. 4
12 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Ethanthedebater1 8 years ago
Ethanthedebater1
"Technically, it is the number of women rather than the number of men which most impacts your reproductive capacity, so long as the number of men is greater than zero. Assuming the man doesn't mind being non-monogamous (which is not exactly the hardest assumption). Once there is at least one male, the number of available pregnancy slots is zero-sum with regard to further males (assuming there aren't so many females a male would die of exhaustion trying to impregnate them all)."

In a sense yes. But if you look at it on a small scale, the man has more potential. The women can carry maybe 10 children throughout her life, but a man can impregnate hundreds of women.

"I think that women are just as valuable as men. Women are the ones that give birth to children. Menn can't produce children without women. If a man were to think that they could just impregnate one woman, then that is incredibly sick and twisted. You can't force a women to have sex with you and get pregnant...sorry if you didn't realize that."

I assume you have never heard of sperm banks.
Posted by gonovice 8 years ago
gonovice
I think that women are just as valuable as men. Women are the ones that give birth to children. Menn can't produce children without women. If a man were to think that they could just impregnate one woman, then that is incredibly sick and twisted. You can't force a women to have sex with you and get pregnant...sorry if you didn't realize that.
Posted by Ragnar_Rahl 8 years ago
Ragnar_Rahl
"Male lives are also worth more than female lives, because males can impregnate the most women and produce the most new life."

Technically, it is the number of women rather than the number of men which most impacts your reproductive capacity, so long as the number of men is greater than zero. Assuming the man doesn't mind being non-monogamous (which is not exactly the hardest assumption). Once there is at least one male, the number of available pregnancy slots is zero-sum with regard to further males (assuming there aren't so many females a male would die of exhaustion trying to impregnate them all).
Posted by Ethanthedebater1 8 years ago
Ethanthedebater1
"So kiddo's when you're in a moral dilemma between killing a 10 year old or a 5 year old, CHOOSE THE OLDER."

OMG! A moral nihilist can understand a logical argument!! Just playing with you, but yes, that is correct, to a degree. Male lives are also worth more than female lives, because males can impregnate the most women and produce the most new life. Let's see, what else works with this argument, well, lower middle class Americans, Europeans, Koreans, Singaporeans, and Japanese people are worth more, because they have the most children that survive to adulthood.
Posted by gonovice 8 years ago
gonovice
I'm sorry, but in my opinion you can't oppose just one type of abortion, it's still abortion and you're either against it all the way or for it all the way.
Posted by TheSkeptic 8 years ago
TheSkeptic
According to the "FLO argument", old people are worth less than younger people :D

So kiddo's when you're in a moral dilemma between killing a 10 year old or a 5 year old, CHOOSE THE OLDER.
Posted by Dnick94 8 years ago
Dnick94
If you, Ethanthedebater1, have time, I want you to renew this topic so that I can debate this with you.
Posted by CoronerPerry 8 years ago
CoronerPerry
I think that basically, they both have valid points, except that there is no way of knowing whether that kid will have a horrible life or not. by killing them, you are saving them from a Life like ours. I wouldn't want that hell on somebody else. plus there is no evidence that they are alive when they are aborted. no proof. still arguable.
Posted by Robert_Santurri 8 years ago
Robert_Santurri
I knew just from the topic title that the opposition would use rape as the opposing argument.
Posted by questionmark 8 years ago
questionmark
I would love to accept, but I agree with you...that kinda defeats the purpose...
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