The Instigator
rctvanchor08
Pro (for)
Winning
30 Points
The Contender
jcool4debate
Con (against)
Losing
21 Points

Abortion should stay legal.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/24/2007 Category: Politics
Updated: 9 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 1,890 times Debate No: 967
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (9)
Votes (17)

 

rctvanchor08

Pro

Seeing as though morals cannot be judged under the law, we must look at the fundemental flaw in making abortions completley illegal.
The last time abortion was illegal, we had women sticking hangers where they don't belong, drinking drain-o, and getting abortions with dirty and infected utensils. This leads to death not only of the child, but of the mother-to-have-been.
Looking at this, we can see that the cost of legal abortion is not as high as the cost of banning it. So, truly, those who are "pro-life" are really pro-death of the mother and child.
jcool4debate

Con

jcool4debate forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 1
rctvanchor08

Pro

Well, since the opponent made no argument, I'd like to respond to the comment made on this post.
1) Great, its a different human being. That doesn't reduce the risk of outlawing abortions. I don't see the argument here.

2)So if so many abortions were performed in sterile environments prior to Roe v Wade, then what's the problem with keeping abortion legal? Obviously outlawing the action didn't work, so then what's the point? Furthermore, do we just ignore the other 10%? Is this argument to say that we should forget about those women? And even furthermore, how can any source be certain that it's only 9% of abortion that was performed in back alley facilities; seeing as though so many abortions go unreported when they are done illegally? This argument is fundamentally flawed and actually supports the claim I am making.

3)While there is a long list of couples waiting to adopt, there is a longer list of children waiting to be adopted.

4) Yes, if you're old enough to have sex you should pay the so-called "consequences." Yet, that is not enough reason to make the child live a life in which he/she is unwanted. Also, that is no reason for legal action against abortion.

5) Great fact. Not relevant to the topic really.

6)It matters not to me when life begins. It matters when the life of the mother is in danger and when outlawing abortion is ineffective.

Obviously the risks of outlawing this choice FAR outweigh the benefits of making some people happy.

I say this: if you don't want an abortion, don't have one.
jcool4debate

Con

jcool4debate forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
rctvanchor08

Pro

rctvanchor08 forfeited this round.
jcool4debate

Con

jcool4debate forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 3
9 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 9 records.
Posted by Robert_Lee_Hotchkiss 9 years ago
Robert_Lee_Hotchkiss
My bad, I had an uncomfortable about my memory of the meeting between Elizabeth and Mary. I reread the story and i was wrong. The bible does say that the baby leaped and that Elizabeth was filled with the holy spirit. Still it seem the agency involved was the holy spirit not fetus that was to become John.

Moral of the story, always check your sources before you mouth off.
Posted by Robert_Lee_Hotchkiss 9 years ago
Robert_Lee_Hotchkiss
I think if two arguments are missed than the debate should be canceled. Even though I am prochoice there really isn't enough of a debate here to vote on.
Posted by Robert_Lee_Hotchkiss 9 years ago
Robert_Lee_Hotchkiss
A fetus is a part of the mother. We call things that are in the body of a person for a long time a part of a person. Mitochondria and intestinal bacteria are their own organisms but they are counted as part of our body. Things we permanently affix to our body are also part of body earrings no, breast implants, teeth fillings, arterial stints, artificial knees yes. A fetus is definitely part of the mothers body.

Further a fetus is not a human being in the sense that we understand humanity. It is a potential human being. Uniquely amongst animals human beings come with virtually no software. If you feed a baby and take care of it but don't interact with it it will simply turn off. While you might say the same of very sick people there is a difference. The body may no longer really be the functioning but it has in a sense been made sacred by its past existence.

In reality babies probably aren't human in any real sense for at least a few months after their born. And indeed in the humanity of babies is a question that has different answers in different cultures. In Rome for instance it was legal to kill ones children until they were a fairly old age, Jesus didn't seem overly concerned about that fact as he never mentioned it.

There is some conflict in the bible as to when life begins. The story of creation of man seems to pretty clearly implys that life begins when the baby takes its first breath, presumably letting the soul in.

The only conflict with this is part in the new testament where John the baptist supposedly leaps in the womb in recognition of Jesus. It must be remembered that the bible doesn't say that this actually happened but rather the mother of John said as much.

Humanity at birth is what our culture excepts it may not be the perfect boundary but it is certainly the most sensible given the history of our culture.
Posted by dalzuga 9 years ago
dalzuga
How can people vote for Con?!!!

This is outrageous!!!
Posted by mindjob 9 years ago
mindjob
Abortion should stay legal for all of the reasons mentioned already, and one more. Abortion has had the biggest effect on reducing crime than any law-and-order reform in the last 30 years. As much as I would like to credit Bill Clinton with dramatically reducing violent crime during his administration, he had nothing to do with it. The thing is, and I'll paraphrase the book "Freakonomics" on this, people are excellent judges on whether they are capable of taking care of another human being. As a percentage of the population that they represent, poor minorities have more abortions than any other population segment. When you're born poor, you tend to stay poor, and poverty breeds crime. This argument sounds morally bankrupt, I admit. But nevertheless, it is valid and thus makes abortion essential to our country's well-being.

Regarding Flyaway625's comments, a study released by the World Health Organization only a few months ago shows that the frequency with which abortions happen is unaffected by whether it is legal or not. The only thing that changes is the mortality of the mother. This finding supports rctvanchor08 view that pro-lifers are actually pro-death in practice. I'm sure that is not what they want to be, but that is how it turns out

Democracy is rule by majority, but OUR democracy is also founded on the belief of protection of the minority. I would suggest reading the federalist papers, especially where James Madison discusses "extending the sphere" before making any claims to understanding the philosophical foundations of our country.

Maintaining that the fetus is a human being and so shouldn't be aborted doesn't hold much water when you pick and choose who's life is worth saving, such as with your probable support of the death penalty and whatever wars Bush has or wants to get us into. Pro-lifers tend lack moral and intellectual continuity.
Posted by Demosthenes01 9 years ago
Demosthenes01
It does matter where a life starts, a baby is still a human when it is in its mother's womb just because it doesn't look like a human doesn't mean that you can classify it has "not human" and it doesn't mean that you have the right to kill it just because somebody doesn't want it, as far as we know we could have killed the next great Albert Einstein.
God makes a little baby and chooses a mom for it and puts it in her womb, when the mom find out what God did she goes to the doctor and says "kill it I don't want it". I do believe that abortion is like murder you kill a living person, you kill a living soul in both murder and abortion.
I can give you so many reasons why abortion should be illegal and you probably wouldn't even read them so I'm going to save me and you a bunch of time and just say abortion should not stay legal
Posted by MineesotaGopher 9 years ago
MineesotaGopher
The problem with your argument, Flyaway, is that you assume that moral personhood begins at conception. You may assume that as you wish, but you present it as though that is "scientific fact" when, first of all, the concept of personhood is something that philosophers not doctors discuss (though there may be overlap, you cannot cite a medical journal to prove personhood), and second of all there are very strong lines of philosophical thought that proscribe all normative statements (such as concepts of "personhood" and what ought to be done in response to them) as being either false or not truth apt, and thus you may not ever be able to prove it. I personally do not view a zygote as a person; I reserve that for being that have a substantial ability to think and feel, which zygotes do not have. They may be "life", but that does not imply they are people deserving of moral protections, and if they are not persons then abortion ought to be allowed.

On your first argument, that does not change anything in the slightest. Consequentially it does not impact to the debaters argument, and morally speaking few would say that there is a moral obligation to support any being that has attached itself to you. If I were conjoined with you tomorrow, you would not be obligated to keep me alive at your own expense.

Your second argument is easily turned; you've demonstrated that we have X deaths with legalised abortion, and X+Y deaths without it, thus actualising the debaters argument.

The third argument too is lacking; the world is vastly overpopulated even as it stands, and thus any argument from adoption would necessarily require an anti-value on procreation.

Morally speaking it is difficult to say whether young teenagers are old enough to be resposnsible for such decisions, but as a policy consideration it may not be wise to force them to serve the role of parents.

I don't have much mroe space, so: 5. Tyranny of majority, 6. Already addressed in first paragraph.
Posted by DemButFAAIR 9 years ago
DemButFAAIR
I LOVE THIS GIRL! SHE'S SO RIGHT! DEBATE HER SO YOU CAN GET A BUNCH OF DEBATE LOSES!!!
Posted by Flyaway625 9 years ago
Flyaway625
1. A fetus is not part of a woman's body. Yes it is dependent on the woman for basic necessities, but it has a completely different genetic code making it a completely different human being.*

2. 90% of all illegal abortions performed prior to Roe v. Wade were performed by licensed doctors in the same medical facilities that they were performed in after Roe v. Wade. 9% were done by back alley facilities, and only 1% were performed by the women themselves. In fact, from 1970-1974, only 39 deaths due to abortion were reported. The invention of penicillin in the 1940s decreased the deaths due to abortion more than the passing of Roe v. Wade. **

3. There is a three year long waiting list of couples who are waiting to adopt children, so how can you say that these children are unwanted? ***

4. If you are old enough to have sex, you are most definitely old enough to face the consequences of your actions and have a baby.

5. Only .5% of all abortions are due to rape and/or incest. Democracy is founded on the priniciple of majority rules, so why would we dictate legislations based on the very small minority of cases?****

6. There is dispute over when life begins. The current scientific explantion for the beginning of life is when the child has its own distinct genetic code. A human acquires a distinct genetic code at conception, so in fact you are killing a human. ***** Oh and by the way, the fetus feels pain at 9 weeks. Well guess what, 75% of all abortions are done 12 weeks or more into the pregnancy meaning the baby feels everything you do to it. ******

* Stanford University Research June 2006
**John Hopkins Department of Embryonic Studies Reseach June 1990
*** Gladney Adoption Agency Statistics November 2007
**** United States Senate Committee of Public Health October 2007

*****Harvard University Medical School Research July 2005
****** Heritage Foundation August 2007
17 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Debater2008 9 years ago
Debater2008
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