The Instigator
AnimalsDeserveBetter
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
zommunist
Pro (for)
Winning
17 Points

Abortion. Good or Bad?

Do you like this debate?NoYes+4
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
zommunist
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 6/20/2014 Category: People
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,454 times Debate No: 56909
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (11)
Votes (3)

 

AnimalsDeserveBetter

Con

Abortion in unjust! Babies have the right to live... It makes me so stinking mad hearing about abortion! If mothers don't want babies, then don't have one! Nobody should have the right to under-go abortion! If those mothers are brave enough to kill the baby, then they deserve something way worse beyond their greatest nightmares!
zommunist

Pro

I accept. Thank you for the challenge and I'd like to thank the 'audience' for 'watching'.

If I cannot complete the argument on time, I'll try to post the lost round in the comment section.

I'm still undecided over this issue, but I'd like to practice the arguments for the 'status quo'.

Besides, I sense a hidden agenda behind your statements like 'greatest nightmare'. Tell me:

a) Are you, if you'll excuse the slang, a 'Bible-Basher'?

b) How is a threat like this not hypocritical

I now turn to you my esteemed opponent...

PS. Define the premises of the argument more clearly please.
Debate Round No. 1
AnimalsDeserveBetter

Con

I am a Christian. Even if the things I say don't seem like I am. But don't you think abortion is wrong? Those babies have the same rights to live as the mothers who kill them do!
zommunist

Pro

Well, you must understand that there is a difference between a foetus and baby, or even an embryo and a baby for that matter. To say a couple of cells is a baby is to call an egg a chick. One must make the distinction between the two.

Regarding the Christian morality of abortion. I wonder why the Church of England is not so absolutist regarding this issue (albeit of a limited degree):

'The Church of England combines strong opposition to abortion with a recognition that there can be - strictly limited - conditions under which it may be morally preferable to any available alternative.'


Furthermore, I don't think the entire world is Christian- there are Buddhists, Muslims and Hindus, as well as atheists and agnostics. Sorry if this comes as a bit rude, but I shouldn't really just care who you are- when you say 'I am a Christian', you are essentially loading the question, that we should all subscribe to Christian moral values (whether or not we should I shall not discuss too much in great detail). Anyway, Buddhists in particular are concerned with trying to limit suffering. If the foetus will become severely handicapped and will be in great pain and suffering, then it is justifiable to terminate the pregnancy, in order to reduce suffering.

I don't see why abortion depending on circumstances cannot be justified. For example, if the conception is caused by rape, i.e. it is an involuntary intercourse, it is not fair for the mother to carry the economic burden and the responsibility of raising the (potential) child, for it was not her choice to conceive in the first place.

Also, another circumstance whereby abortion is justifiable is when the mother's life is in danger. It is really unfair that the life of the mother should be marginalised by a piece of religious dogma. In fact, should the mother die, the unborn child dies too. In this circumstance, it is the lesser of two evil (if you consider abortion an evil).

Thirdly, if the child will have mental or physical disorder which will cause him/her serious pain and suffering after birth, then to proclaim that for the so called 'sanctity of life' that the child is to be preserved is just plain sick. But not that some Christians would care anyway, because they are essentially sadomasochistic. It is easy for these fundamentalist Christians to forget, that they are healthy, secure and sound individuals- they cannot comprehend the suffering the child will go through. Sometimes, 'dignity' and 'quality' of life must be taken into consideration as well.

I must also add that it seems unsurprising how many abortion clinic bombers are men. I don't think that these men understand the circumstances that these women have to go through and why they wanted an abortion (they care more about what the Bible says than reality). Those 'murderers' don't just have an abortion because they feel like it, but they have their reasons (of which I have given three).

Lastly, a slight digression, isn't it a little hypocritical that God commanded Abraham to kill his son, then change his mind? What about the horrible 'nightmares' you talked about?

I think you have to look at the circumstances, as well as the right of the mother.

Thank you, I now turn to my honoured opponent...
Debate Round No. 2
AnimalsDeserveBetter

Con

I bet you believe in the 'big bang' theory... Anywho, the mother had just given a baby life, then she takes it away with abortion. The baby may not be formed all the way, but it's still a baby.

P.S I think you are very rude...
zommunist

Pro

And I think it's a red herring to quote the big bang theory in a debate about whether abortion is good or bad.

I have not intended to offend you in any way. In actual fact, I think you are very unruly in having to resort to ad hominem attacks; very ungentlemanly of you to do so.

But back to the point, I think that abortion is justified under many circumstances, and a foetus is NOT a baby. In fact, the 'baby' is not even conscious or considered alive during the first few months.

Here is the BBC Ethics' statement:


Unfortunately there's no agreement in medicine, philosophy or theology as to what stage of foetal development should be associated with the right to life.


That isn't surprising, because the idea that there is a precise moment when a foetus gets the right to live, which it didn't have a few moments earlier, feels very strange.


And when you look closely at each of the suggested dates, they do seem either arbitrary or not precise enough to decide whether the unborn should have the right to live.


Nonetheless, as a matter of practicality many abortion laws lay down a stage of pregnancy after which abortion is unlawful (because the foetus has a right to life), and the dates chosen are usually based on viability.


Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk...


Now to you...


Debate Round No. 3
AnimalsDeserveBetter

Con

AnimalsDeserveBetter forfeited this round.
zommunist

Pro

Guess my opponent has forfeited this round. But I shall continue with the debate anyway.

To give you an example of a state which has enforced a ban on abortion in order to increase birth rate. The example is Ceausescu's Communist Romania. In the 1960s, Ceausescu wanted to increase the size of the Romanian labour force by increasing the population, he thus banned abortion. In doing so the Romanian infrastructure became overstretched, life standard fell and the lack of resources for all those children meant that the standard of school education fell.

The women of Romania took the brunt of the catastrophe. They were forced to pay a 'celibacy tax' if they did not have children. There were no means of contraception available (as they are, of course, banned). The women had to go through humiliating 'cervical tests' and various other inspections by the merciless Communist officials and doctors who are trying to enforce the policy. Women had no right over when they can have children, how many they can have, when to terminate it etc. The other states which also discouraged/banned abortion are, not surprisingly, Communist nations like China and the USSR. Only in such authoritarian places can brutal policies designed to infringe upon women's rights, like the ban on abortion be reinforced. The ban of abortion as a mean of birth control, like I said, further stretched Romanian infrastructure by a massive population surge.

That was a short round, I now turned to my honoured instigator for her ripostes...
Debate Round No. 4
AnimalsDeserveBetter

Con

AnimalsDeserveBetter forfeited this round.
zommunist

Pro

OK...

I hereby conclude my argument.

Abortion is a matter of the mother's right, not the decisions of religious dogma. A mother has right to live, the right to prevent the suffering of the child by terminating the foetus, the right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy. States which have banned abortion for whatever reason are often dictatorial and do not respect women's rights at all, and they are in fact, the 'greatest nightmares'.

Thank you, contender and audience.
Please, vote pro!
Debate Round No. 5
11 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by zommunist 2 years ago
zommunist
Strange how I mentioned abortion and women's rights. In the USSR at times when women were allowed abortion, they actually had more rights than their counterparts in capitalist nations
Posted by PlumberGirl123 2 years ago
PlumberGirl123
i agree with Zommunist. abortions are great and people should have one for any excuse. not just cuz rape, incest, or harm. its unwanted, an inconvenience, i can purposely get pregnant and have an abortion. although i wont lol im js ;D
Posted by Araya 2 years ago
Araya
Zommunist, I definitely agree with you, everyone should have a choice
Posted by zommunist 2 years ago
zommunist
Araya, I'm not trying to force women to have an abortion. I think they should have the choice and it's not my place to judge. But to say that to have an abortion is absolutely wrong is an entirely different matter.
Posted by Araya 2 years ago
Araya
I think people should mind their own business and do what they want with their body. If you don't want to get an abortion don't , if you do want to then do it. No one should have to list reasons as to why they want to abort an unborn child. If a woman doesn't want a child why would you force her to raise one? Maybe she is poor and can't provide for it, maybe she is scared of birthing a baby. Whatever her reason may be it's her body. Don't try to force your will upon someone else. By denying someone their right, your rights also will be denied. And the con hasn't even argued her point. She hasn't bible thumped and quoted the bible- which can't hold up in this debate anyway because this isn't a debate of RELIGIOUS morals and beliefs on abortion. It just sounds like she's whining and throwing a temper tantrum and wants everyone to do what she wants like people are pawns on a chess game and she's the player.
Posted by zommunist 2 years ago
zommunist
If con doesn't argue against abortion, I say she has forfeited, or rather, aborted, the argument. (Sorry, bad pun).
Posted by FuzzyCatPotato 2 years ago
FuzzyCatPotato
Con, you may wish to argue against abortion some time in this debate.
Posted by Domr 2 years ago
Domr
The Con hasn't argued any of the points made by the Pro. She stated "the mother" is giving life at conception. However there were no points made against rape victims, someone who did not WANT to be a mother. Nor we're than any points made regarding the fetus substantially increasing the risk of death in the mother ( other than the usual risks of pregnancy and childbirth)

I love to see debates on this topic. And I hope in the later rounds we can see some better arguments.
Posted by Domr 2 years ago
Domr
We need to define more about abortion.

Babies have to be born. So you are not killing a baby. You are aborting the unborn. So can we use the correct terms for this argument. "Killing a baby" invokes an emotional reaction which can take away from the debate.

Pregnancy takes place three trimesters, and also takes on three different names before being born:
Zygote - First two weeks after becoming pregnant
Embryo - Two weeks - End of First Trimester.
Fetus - Second Trimester-Birth.

Are we stating that abortion, during any stage of pregnancy is wrong...even if the sex leading up to the pregnancy is unwanted? Is abortion a viable option when the baby has a very low success rate of living? If the baby is causing fatal conditions for the mother (such as preeclampsia) is it considered an abortion to protect yourself from something (or someone, depending on your definition) from killing you?

***(The previous statement regarding fatal conditions applies to illnesses that arise during pregnancy. The possibility of death during childbirth, while tragic, is not a reason to get an abortion. In My Opinion)

When people use abortion as birth control - BAD
When rape victims use abortion as means to undo the tragedy - NOT BAD
When an expecting mother, feels she doesn't want a child anymore uses abortion - BAD
When an expecting mother, ailing through her pregnancy with life-threatening symptoms uses abortion to survive - NOT BAD

(Take note how I never said any of these were good. But not all are bad,

The simple question of: "Is abortion good or bad?" has too many outliers to give a simple answer.
Posted by aretilda 2 years ago
aretilda
I'm against abortion, I'm a Christian and I don't think it's right to kill the babies, it's murder plain and simple if it's not murder than what is it? Abortion is the act of murdering the most innocent of lives and those babies are so helpless.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by mishapqueen 2 years ago
mishapqueen
AnimalsDeserveBetterzommunistTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: I am personally against abortion, but Con never really responded to Pro and also forfeited twice. I didn't really think Pro was rude either. Pro brought up valid concerns that are answerable but Con chose not to answer them. I think Con unfortunately let their emotions get away with them, which is understandable, however, that does not foster a good discussion. REASONS FOR DECISION: I am still of the opinion that abortion is wrong, but I gave the convincing arguments point to Pro because he was more convincing than Con. I gave conduct to Pro because he was professional and respectful and did not forfeit. Con used no sources, so Pro gets that point too.
Vote Placed by lannan13 2 years ago
lannan13
AnimalsDeserveBetterzommunistTied
Agreed with before the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Agreed with after the debate:Vote Checkmark--0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:-Vote Checkmark-2 points
Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: Forfeiture
Vote Placed by Themba 2 years ago
Themba
AnimalsDeserveBetterzommunistTied
Agreed with before the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Agreed with after the debate:--Vote Checkmark0 points
Who had better conduct:-Vote Checkmark-1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:--Vote Checkmark2 points
Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Con abandoned the debate.