The Instigator
Prez_Siler
Con (against)
Winning
11 Points
The Contender
Conspiracy_Theory
Pro (for)
Losing
5 Points

Abortion

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
Prez_Siler
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/20/2011 Category: Politics
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,525 times Debate No: 18907
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (10)
Votes (4)

 

Prez_Siler

Con

I would like to debate the the topic of abortion with someone who believes abortion is a woman's right. I am apposed to abortion
Conspiracy_Theory

Pro

I assume that Con's argument is based off the fact that he believes abortion is immoral at all stages of the pregnancy. I will be arguing that it is immoral only past and/or at the conclusion of the 1st trimester the pregnancy. Good Luck.

When is the fetus considered alive?

When on the topic of abortion, one may ask if a fetus is really alive, and with an appropriate answer, can shape their opinion. Unfortunately, someone who asks a question as such is looking for a concrete answer with no concrete answer, and can only be answered by an individuals take on the matter. However, answers to that question can vary from the first cell of the fetus to late in the pregnancy.

Stages of a pregnancy

A pregnancy consists of four stages (in order): Fertilization, Implantation, Gastrulation, and Embryogenesis.

Fertilization: During this stage the egg undergoes the second division of meiosis to re-form the father's set of diploid chromosomes. Once complete (takes place in the Fallopian Tubes) the egg then travels to the Uterus where it attaches to the wall.

Implantation: At this point the fetus begins to produce the tissue of the cell walls. This process concludes at the end of the second week.

Gastrulation: Here the three germ layers begin to form - Endoderm, Ectoderm, Mesoderm - all of which contribute to the vitality and well being of organs.

Embryogenesis: This is where my main argument comes in. At this stage the main bodily systems begin to form (Circulatory, Respiratory, etc). This stage concludes at the end of the 1st Trimester.

The definition of Embryogenesis contributes largely to this debate. This is because the conclusion of Embryogenesis means the fetus has completed the "genesis" part of the stage. Webster Dictionary defines "genesis" as "the origin or coming into being of something", or in other words, being brought into life (http://www.merriam-webster.com...). Knowing this, you can only apply this definition when referring to the end of Embryogenesis. This is because the baby is considered alive at the conclusion of the stage for that is when the primary bodily systems are completed (with the exception of the Nervous System) and begin to function.

Murder

Webster Dictionary defines murder as "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought" (http://www.merriam-webster.com...). Using common sense, for one to kill another person, the victim must be alive. The main argument to people who are against abortion is that aborting a pregnancy is murder, and therefore should be illegal. However, if aborted before the conclusion of the Embryogenesis stage (or the end of the 1st Trimester), the baby would not be alive, therefore it would not be murder, and therefore it would not be illegal.

Sources:
Debate Round No. 1
Prez_Siler

Con

This is my first real debate so tell me if I do something wrong. Now to the point. You argue that a woman can kill the fetus, if the fetus isn't alive.

"When on the topic of abortion, one may ask if a fetus is really alive, and with an appropriate answer, can shape their opinion. Unfortunately, someone who asks a question as such is looking for a concrete answer with no concrete answer, and can only be answered by an individuals take on the matter. "

But I say it is a little more simple than you are trying to make it. If you have to kill something, it is alive. The dictionary definition says: "cause something living to die." http://www.bing.com... Therefore, when you commit abortion you are killing a living human being.

But that brings us to the other point of your argument. That the fetus is not yet human. You say "I will be arguing that it is immoral only past and/or at the conclusion of the 1st trimester the pregnancy.", but at the end of the 1st trimester the the person has completed embryo genesis. At the first trimester you can hear the baby's' heart rate. The baby's skin has developed. The baby's face is developed with a recognizable chin and ears

Your whole argument falls on its face IF I can prove that the fetus is human. So let us look at the differences between the fetus and a human.
There are only four differences:
1. Location
2. Level of Dependency
3. Size
4. Level of Development

Location
The location of a person never determines his or her right to life.

Level of Dependency
Just because, the fetus depends on his or her mother for his or her life, does not make the fetus more or less human. Siamese twins depend on each other for life, but we do not deny them the right to life. A man who has diabetes and is dependant upon insulin to live does not have less right to life than someone without diabetes.

Size
A newborn who is 20 inches is no less of a person than a full grown adult. Which brings me to my final topic.

Level of Development
A fetus is not as developed as a newborn, just as a 6 year old boy is not as developed as a 30 year old man. Just because a 6 year old boy doesn't have a developed reproductive system doesn't mean it is any less human than the 30 year old man.

Based on these arguments a fetus is no less human than any 2 year old.

Sources:http://www.pregnancy-weekbyweek.info...
http://www.bing.com...
http://www.cyh.com...
https://www.seattlechildrens.org...
Conspiracy_Theory

Pro

Thank you Con for your addition to the debate. Good luck.

*************

My opponent states: "The dictionary definition says: "cause something living to die." http://www.bing.com...... Therefore, when you commit abortion you are killing a living human being."

The definition of "kill" has no relevance is this debate because it does not imply that the cause of the death was without justification, or illegal. Therefore when you say "you are killing a living human being.", you imply that the cause was not murder. For further explanation, I could say: "The criminal was killed for his unlawful actions.", but that does not mean it was illegal. The same concept can be applied to an abortion. Which brings me to my next point.

"But that brings us to the other point of your argument. That the fetus is not yet human."

Here Con wrongfully states that I claimed the fetus is not yet human, which I never said. I had said that before the conclusion of the 1st Trimester, the fetus is not yet alive. Because of this fact, the abortion cannot be considered murder, as I had proved in my previous argument. Refer back to it if needed.

"At the first trimester you can hear the baby's' heart rate. The baby's skin has developed. The baby's face is developed with a recognizable chin and ears"

Please be specific. I cannot tell whether or not you mean the beginning or conclusion of the 1st Trimester. Either way I'll respond to both.

  • If you were referring to the beginning: Your source (http://www.pregnancy-weekbyweek.info...) explains what's happening during the 12th week of a pregnancy (which is very near the end of the 1st Trimester). As you explain it, the baby has developed skin (which is false according to your source), as well as facial features and you can easily hear a heart beat. However, you are not proving that the fact that the fetus would be alive before this point, and you have yet to do so.
  • If you were referring to the conclusion: If you were referring to this point in the pregnancy, you would not be supporting your argument in any way for you would be supporting mine.

"Your whole argument falls on its face IF I can prove that the fetus is human."

Again, my argument does not depend on whether or not the fetus is human. Instead of telling you, I'll let you figure out what you need to prove to make my argument "fall on its face".

Knowing that you completely misinterpreted my argument, I cannot respond in any way to the rest of your rebuttal.

Rape

http://www.merriam-webster.com.... I want to touch base with one of the more hot topics of abortion. If you clicked on the link I provided you saw: "unlawful sexual activity and usually sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will usually of a female or with a person who is beneath a certain age or incapable of valid consent" (long I know). Some key word/phrases I'd like to point out: "forcibly", "against the will of a female", and "sexual intercourse". If a woman is raped she would definitely run the risk of an unwanted pregnancy.



        1. If she does prove positive in a pregnancy test, do you honestly believe that she shouldn't have the right to abort it?
        2. Should she go through all the necessities of caring for a fetus?
        3. Should she be held responsible for raising the child?



If your answer to any of these questions are yes, I would love to hear why you think that is so.

*************

Con, please take the time to re-read my argument to get a better understanding of the difference between if the fetus is human or alive.

Vote Pro.



Debate Round No. 2
Prez_Siler

Con

I'd like to thank you as well for accepting this debate.

Pro claims that it is ok the abort the fetus if it is in the first trimester. What about if it is one day after the first trimester? What special thing happens that makes it not alive, between the 90th day and the 91st day?

My opponent also stated that"The definition of "kill" has no relevance is this debate because it does not imply that the cause of the death was without justification, or illegal". When is killing the fetus ever justified? The fetus has not committed any illegal acts, or down anything wrong.

Pro says "If you were referring to the beginning: Your source (http://www.pregnancy-weekbyweek.info......) explains what's happening during the 12th week of a pregnancy (which is very near the end of the 1st Trimester)." So it is in the first trimester, which was my point.

You also brought up rape, which wasn't part of the original debate, but I will answer. You also asked my to answer yes to one of your three questions.
  1. If she does prove positive in a pregnancy test, do you honestly believe that she shouldn't have the right to abort it?

Just because something terrible happens in your life doesn't give you the right to kill your baby. If a woman has a 3 year old that was caused by rape, does she have the right to kill him or her? Also, only 1% of abortions are from rape or incest. http://www.nytimes.com...
Does that justify the other 99%?

2. Should she go through all the necessities of caring for a fetus?

Yes. The decision to take care of a child doesn't happen when you realize you are pregnant.

3. Should she be held responsible for raising the child?

She doesn't have to. The are millions of parents who want to adopt.

Conspiracy_Theory

Pro

Thanks for the debate Prez_Siler. Good luck.

*******

"What about if it is one day after the first trimester? What special thing happens that makes it not alive, between the 90th day and the 91st day?"

Again, the completion of the Embryogenesis stage in a pregnancy marks the day when the fetus has developed all vital bodily systems and is considered alive (not human). If this stage ends on the 91st day, then that is when the fetus is alive. Anything before that would not be considered murder and the abortion would be legal.

"When is killing the fetus ever justified?..."

I'll explain more thoroughly.
  • Definition of murder: "the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought"
  • Definition of kill: "cause something living to die."
When you kill something, you do not need justification because you are implying that the victim was killed with reason that wouldn't be considered illegal (based on your definition compared to mine). When you murder something, you imply that the victim was killed unlawfully and especially with malice aforethought (see definition of murder).

We both agree on the fact that in order for something to die, it must be alive. However, in any of your arguments, I have not seen one sentence proving that the fetus is alive at all times, yet you continue to state that the fetus would be murdered. Because of this, my argument prevails over yours based on the idea that the fetus is considered alive at the end of the 1st Trimester and beyond.

"You also brought up rape, which wasn't part of the original debate,..."

It plays a vital role in the abortion debate, which is the topic of this debate.

"Just because something terrible happens in your life doesn't give you the right to kill your baby."

No it doesn't. However, when something terrible happens in your life such as rape, you have the right to abort your fetus before the deadline.

"If a woman has a 3 year old that was caused by rape, does she have the right to kill him or her?"

No, that would be considered murder because the 3 year old child is alive. You seem to be misinterpreting the difference between alive and not alive and it's relation to murder.

"1% of abortions are from rape or incest."
  • The source you provided (http://www.nytimes.com...) says "'The 1 percent number from the 1987 survey is really the best we have on abortions..."". You are going by a survey that was taken in 1987, which cannot be valid today considering it took place 24 years ago.
  • Also from your same source: "But the National Right to Life Committee argues that the number could be much higher...". Not only is your source out of date, the percentage provided could very likely be higher.

Q: "Should she go through all the necessities of caring for a fetus?

A: "Yes. The decision to take care of a child doesn't happen when you realize you are pregnant."

I beg to differ. When a female finds out she is pregnant, if not decided before hand, I assume the first thing that would go through her head is "do I really want to raise this child". You may ask, "why wouldn't she have decided before hand?".
  • Sexual intercourse can be for the purpose of pleasure, instead of trying to get pregnant. Proper protection should reduce the risk of an unwanted pregnancy.
  • Spur of the moment I suppose.
Take a look at this: http://www.thelizlibrary.org...

In the link given you notice an enormous list of health risks caused by a pregnancy. I urge you to scroll more towards the bottom of the list to see the more serious effects.

*******

Throughout this entire debate Con completely misunderstood the main concepts of my argument.

I urge a strong vote for Pro.










Debate Round No. 3
10 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Conspiracy_Theory 5 years ago
Conspiracy_Theory
It's fine that you're done. But based on my argument the fetus isn't alive until the end of the 1st Tri. Therefore you are not killing it.
Posted by Prez_Siler 5 years ago
Prez_Siler
Again the debate is over but i did state that if you have to kill something it is alive. If you have to kill a fetus, the fetus is alive.

The people decide. Please read the full arguement. I am done.
Posted by Conspiracy_Theory 5 years ago
Conspiracy_Theory
I'd also like to point out Con never proved the fetus was alive at all times. He certainly said it multiple times, but never provided substantial evidence.
Posted by Conspiracy_Theory 5 years ago
Conspiracy_Theory
Again, it doesn't matter whether or not the fetus is human. It could be a fish, it could be a monkey, it could be a plant. If it isn't alive, it isn't murder. I continue to strongly urge a vote for Pro.
Posted by Prez_Siler 5 years ago
Prez_Siler
Is the fetus human before the first trimester? If so, you are killing a human. Vote Con
Posted by Conspiracy_Theory 5 years ago
Conspiracy_Theory
Before anyone posts any more votes: You don't need to prove that the fetus isn't human. I said that multiple times. I needed to prove that the fetus was alive after the 1st Trimester.
Posted by Prez_Siler 5 years ago
Prez_Siler
I don't know him, He just friended me today.
Posted by Conspiracy_Theory 5 years ago
Conspiracy_Theory
One of which voted 5 points in your favor with no reasoning...just saying.
Posted by Prez_Siler 5 years ago
Prez_Siler
I hope the same because i only have 2 friends on this site lol
Posted by Conspiracy_Theory 5 years ago
Conspiracy_Theory
I hope the voter won't vote based on who is their friend, but on who argued their opinion better.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by BrandonSiler2044 5 years ago
BrandonSiler2044
Prez_SilerConspiracy_TheoryTied
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Total points awarded:31 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro never proved how a fetus isn't a human. THerefore legalization of abortion is killing someone.
Vote Placed by wiploc 5 years ago
wiploc
Prez_SilerConspiracy_TheoryTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: I'm pro-abortion, but Pro staked his argument on the claim that fetuses aren't alive, which is a nonstarter. Con pointed out that fetuses, and even earlier products of conception, are alive, so Con wins.
Vote Placed by imabench 5 years ago
imabench
Prez_SilerConspiracy_TheoryTied
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Total points awarded:04 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro brought up how it is very questionable when a fetus becomes alive/human, and for some women that exact women when the fetus becomes alive can vary greatly, which impacts when abortion could be considered "murder". As for the rape argument con makes it seem like abortion is an act of revenge instead of the woman trying to fix her own life caused by a problem that she did not inflict upon herself. arguments go to pro and so did grammar since con misspelled opposed at the very beginning
Vote Placed by 16kadams 5 years ago
16kadams
Prez_SilerConspiracy_TheoryTied
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Total points awarded:50 
Reasons for voting decision: