The Instigator
XiaoFei98
Con (against)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
rogue
Pro (for)
Winning
15 Points

Abortion

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 4 votes the winner is...
rogue
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/23/2011 Category: Health
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 981 times Debate No: 18952
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (4)

 

XiaoFei98

Con

You wanted to debate about abortion with me so I challenge you. You start first. Good luck. You have 5 rounds to prove me wrong or change your mind
rogue

Pro

Since no arguments have been put forth, I am will begin by saying that outlawing abortion is wrong because it robs a woman of her right to control what is done to her body.

I also would like to begin with the fact that the Supreme Court of the United States of America believes that outlawing abortion is unconstitutional because it goes against the privacy clause.

http://www.oyez.org...
Debate Round No. 1
XiaoFei98

Con

Yes, many people believe this, but I assume you aren't a Christian. If you are, then I can use this. It's not the woman's body, God owns it, but allows the person to control. You do not belong to yourself, you belong to God. Like I said, if you are not a believer of God, just tell me so I will stop mentioning it. Now to start the actual debate.

There should not be death involved for the irresponsibility of the mother. Why does the baby (or fetus) have to die because of the mother's irresponsible and lack of self control. In the case of rape, the woman shouldn't kill something innocent because of the actions of the father. Two wrongs don't make a right. The mother shouldn't have a choice to abort or keep. The choice should be keep or put up for adoption. This would allow people to become parents and it was shown in a survey that there is a lack of adoptable babies because abortion is legal. So many people would want to have that kid, but careless irresponsible mothers just want to kill it so they can think nothing happened.

Now, some other points I need to touch on.

Point one: Abortion is murder

There is no doubt that abortion is murder. If that "fetus" will turn into a human being and have the same characteristics and qualities as you and I, it should be considered living. If you look at studies, a baby has a heartbeat as early as the first month. So, when people normally abort their kids, they are actually killing because whatever has a heartbeat is alive. Finish the statement for me. It is okay to kill an unborn baby if _________. I would like to see what you say to that. Also, if you are confused or don't know, here's an analogy: if I'm a construction worker and I'm going to blow up a building, but I don't know if there's someone alive in there should I still blow it up? There's someone in there that I don't know yet, but I will just blow it up anyways. Does that sound good? Would you do that. I know people say that it is a fetus and cannot be considered human until it can survive on it's own, but a newborn can't survive on it's own so if you feel like giving up being a mother, would it be just to leave the newborn to die? Here's a website proving the child's heartbeat and studies on when children become living:http://www.livestrong.com...

Point 2: Abortion is NOT safe

Many people believe that abortion is not safe and has a .5% of turning out badly. This is lie so that people can justify it. Abortion is so far from safe with the amount of hazards it can cause a mom and it of course, is not safe for the baby because it's being killed. Read these two pages and tell me if you think that abortion is safe. With these two pages, you will not only see proved statistics, but the amount of things that can go wrong. Cancers, physiological problems, eating disorders, smoking, child neglect or abuse, greater chances of miscarriages, greater chances of handicap pregnancies later on, greater chances of getting a divorce and not staying with your soul mate, etc. With all these, abortion should not even be considered safe and should only be considered dangerous and murderous.

http://afterabortion.org...
http://afterabortion.org...

I look forward to hearing your response. I have a feeling this will be a good debate.
rogue

Pro

It's not the woman's body, God owns it, but allows the person to control. You do not belong to yourself, you belong to God."- I am not a Christian and do not view this as a rational or valid argument. Even so, we have a strict policy of separation of church and state in the United States of America, so to incorporate that into a lawful decision is unconstitutional.

"There should not be death involved for the irresponsibility of the mother. Why does the baby (or fetus) have to die because of the mother's irresponsible and lack of self control."- First of all a woman can still get pregnant even if she uses all recommended protection. So it may not be the case of her being irresponsible. Also, no matter how you try, people are never going to stop having sex when they do not want a baby. It is not just the woman who "cannot control herself" but the man as well. You cannot stop people from having sex when they do not want a baby, so instead of letting millions of unwanted babies who probably won't have very good lives since the amount of children put up for adoption is very low come into the world and suffer, let us keep abortion legal.

"In the case of rape, the woman shouldn't kill something innocent because of the actions of the father. Two wrongs don't make a right."- So what if the mother has post-par dom depression because the baby disgusts her since every time she sees it it reminds her of the night that ruined her life? She could easily hate the baby for being sprung from the man that scarred her for life. Is it right that a woman should have to suffer and waste at least three to four months of her life because of someone else's crime?

"The mother shouldn't have a choice to abort or keep. The choice should be keep or put up for adoption. This would allow people to become parents and it was shown in a survey that there is a lack of adoptable babies because abortion is legal."- Whoa what? Cite that survey. I do not believe it. At least in other countries there is an absurd amount of orphans who need to be adopted. Even if the United States has a lack of orphans, other countries do not and we can do them a favor by adopted those children instead of adding to the number of unwanted children. Also, studies may be skewed because in the United States, orphans are not called orphans but "wards of the state."

"There is no doubt that abortion is murder. If that "fetus" will turn into a human being and have the same characteristics and qualities as you and I, it should be considered living. If you look at studies, a baby has a heartbeat as early as the first month. So, when people normally abort their kids, they are actually killing because whatever has a heartbeat is alive."- This is a really unsupported assertion. The heart sometimes beats for a while after the brain is dead. Also, a heartbeat is not what makes someone worth anything or human. Lots of animals that we kill every day are alive with heartbeats when we kill them. Is our species really what makes us a person and something of worth? I think not. I think you become a person when you develop a personality and people who care about you. That is what gives someone worth. No one cares when a person who has lived in the woods their entire life and never spoken to anyone dies. That fetus might as well be a bunch of cells. In fact, it is a bunch of cells.

It is ok to kill an unborn baby if it is not wanted.
It is ok to kill an unborn baby if the mother's life would be greatly changed for the worse if it is born.
It is ok to kill unborn babies because if we kept all the babies that have been aborted alive, we would not be able to sustain all of the people alive on Earth and almost all of us would suffer and die.

"here's an analogy: if I'm a construction worker and I'm going to blow up a building, but I don't know if there's someone alive in there should I still blow it up? There's someone in there that I don't know yet, but I will just blow it up anyways. Does that sound good? Would you do that."- This is really a terrible analogy. First of all if I was a construction worker I could go inside and see if anyone was in there. Second of all with a fetus you know exactly what is in there and I for one do not view it as a person. A construction worker has a family and friends who likely would be very sad if he died. A fetus has no one who will be sad if it dies. Even it won't be sad because it has never felt emotion. It won't feel pain either. Try another analogy.

Hahahahaha abortion is not safe. But what about pregnancy? Let's talk about pregnancy. Do you know how much more dangerous pregnancy is? If not here you go: http://www.americanpregnancy.org... http://www.babycenter.com...
http://www.womenshealth.gov...
http://www.cdc.gov...

Also, your site cites one study. One related to death after pregnancy. You site also clearly has an agenda whereas mine do not. Most of the deaths related with abortion are because of psychological disorders. No psychologist or behavior scientist will argue that the abortion made them suicidal. For someone to commit suicide or hurt themselves they have to have the capability in them previous to a traumatic event to want to commit such acts. Those women could have hurt or killed themselves for any number of reasons other than the abortion. Correlation does not imply causality. Even so, a woman should also have the right whether or not to take the risks of the abortion.

"With all these, abortion should not even be considered safe and should only be considered dangerous and murderous."- Pregnancy is more physically dangerous and just as psychologically dangerous.
Debate Round No. 2
XiaoFei98

Con

You have some good feedback. Now here's mine.

I will skip the Christian part because you do not have the same belief as me. Next point.

Yes, a woman can get pregnant even if she does all the safety requirements and I'm not saying you shouldn't have sex unless it's for a baby. I'm saying that there is birth control for a reason that works 99% of the time. So the mother is irresponsible. If she can pay $1000 to get her baby killed, she can spend less than that to simply avoid a pregnancy.

You say that there are millions "of unwanted babies who probably won't have very good lives since the amount of children put up for adoption is very low come into the world and suffer". Whoa. Where in the world did you come up with that? So many people are trying to adopt at the moment that there's a waiting line out the door. If there was so many "unwanted" babies, why on Earth would someone travel to different countries after waiting five years or more to receive a child and by the way, the trip costs thousands of dollars and this is not including the fees to adopt. I was adopted from China. If there were people who didn't want to adopt I would be in China right now and Steve Jobs would not have created Mac. That argument is dead. While I'm on the topic of adoption, you said that there are an absurd amount of orphans who need to be adopted etc. Many people who want children and can't have one don't want to travel all the to a different country because they don't have the money. They want to help their own country. Other countries take care of their own problems. Why help other countries when they can help themselves. Maybe you're forgetting that there are people who want to adopt kids within their own country too.

Next subject is rape.

There is no doubt that I feel bad for raped women, but which is better? Murder or rape? The woman can hate the kid all she wants, but if she gives it up for adoption, then she won't have to look at it, love it, or care for it for the rest of her life because someone else will do that. She was part of the crime, she was victim so now she must take responsibility and not put it on something that had no part in the rape in the first place. Why kill something innocent for a crime that the father committed. Also, rape will stay with her no matter what. It's something that scars someone emotionally. Aborting the kid won't make it any better. Now, it's I killed my kid and I was raped. Gee that sounds even better (sarcasm). It's almost like someone's kid who got ran over by a car and survived with much physical damage. Should the parent kill their child because it pains them to see their child in a helpless estate? Should the parent decide that instead of dealing with it like a mature adult, they'll just kill the child because it makes them hate the driver every time they look at the kid? You're almost saying the same thing.

Next point is abortion is murder.

Yes, we kill animals, but what do they all have in common? Heartbeats! Yes, the heart may beat for awhile after the brain's dead, but that person is a dead man. Why, if a heartbeat is not so important, do we do CPR and check for heartbeats when someone is knocked unconscious or is dying? We do it to see if they are alive. This is the same. We check fro heartbeats to see if a person's living, then the "fetus" must be living if it has one. The fetus is a baby.

No child is unwanted so there is no reason to kill it.
Steve Jobs could have been aborted, but made a computer most people use today. Steve Jobs was adopted and obviously wanted by someone.

The mother's life in rape is greatly changed anyways. Giving it life and giving it up for adoption can allow the mother's life to go on.

If abortion was illegal, more people would have a chance and people would be able to have their wishes of having a child. I'm not suffering and dying and I was an orphan and am an adoptee.

For my analogy you said no one would care if a fetus died. I would. Some of my best friends were adopted and in one situation, it was either my friend get aborted or a divorce. She is the greatest friend I have. So really I care a lot because just think, if they were aborted, all of my friends wouldn't be here and neither would I. Don't you know anyone adopted that you love? They could have been aborted, but their parents decided to make the right choice.

Ok. Fine, a lot can go wrong with a pregnancy, but that's what doctors are for. Doctors are supposed to be saving lives, not ending them through abortion. If the mother is going through complications, then doctors are there to help. A lot of things can wrong in anything you do. For example: when you get a tattoo, there are risks, but when something bad happens you normally go to a doctor. If there were zero complications with anything, then we wouldn't need doctors and the world would be perfect. I know many people who have had kids and had pregnancy issues and went to the doctor and started feeling better. It's painful, but that's why we have pain killers and it may dangerous, but that's why you normally go in for ultra sounds during a pregnancy to see what's going on; this way you are less prone to unexpected complications.

I have an essay for round three and a video for round four. I am looking forward to your response. By the way, the website you asked for is abortion.procon.org. It was my mistake, however that the survey was taken in 2002. I needed to post a more up to date survey.
rogue

Pro

"Yes, a woman can get pregnant even if she does all the safety requirements and I'm not saying you shouldn't have sex unless it's for a baby. I'm saying that there is birth control for a reason that works 99% of the time. So the mother is irresponsible. If she can pay $1000 to get her baby killed, she can spend less than that to simply avoid a pregnancy."- The point is that it only works that way in theory. My friend's parents got pregnant twice using birth control and condoms. Some people are more fertile than others. Is it ok to punish those who are responsible and still have a bad outcome?

As for a lot of unwanted children. Here are my citations.: http://abbafund.wordpress.com...
http://www.numberof.net...
http://www.unicef.org...
http://www.worldorphans.org...
http://www.adoptuskids.org...
http://blog.childtrends.org...
http://www.howtoadopt.org...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
http://www.unicef.org...
http://earthtrends.wri.org...
http://www.un.org...

There are clearly a lot of unwanted, unadopted children in the world. If you want to prove me otherwise, you will have to cite it. It is the most serious in Africa because of the AIDS crisis as you can see by my last couple of citations. Also according to my sources there is no lack of children up for adoption.

"If there was so many "unwanted" babies, why on Earth would someone travel to different countries after waiting five years or more to receive a child and by the way, the trip costs thousands of dollars and this is not including the fees to adopt. I was adopted from China. If there were people who didn't want to adopt I would be in China right now and Steve Jobs would not have created Mac."- Because they know that the need is greater in those countries because those children have lives that are not nearly as good as our wards of the state.

"Other countries take care of their own problems. Why help other countries when they can help themselves."- Except they cannot help themselves because they are poor third world countries who are worse off than we are.

"There is no doubt that I feel bad for raped women, but which is better? Murder or rape?"- Under the law it is not defined as murder. Many people do not view it as murder. Until you can prove that abortion is truly murder under the law, which it isn't, that point is invalid.

"The woman can hate the kid all she wants, but if she gives it up for adoption, then she won't have to look at it, love it, or care for it for the rest of her life because someone else will do that."- Ok but you are also forgetting about post-pardom depression, the nine months of her life she is wasting, and the hatred she could feel for the thing growing inside her.

"She was part of the crime, she was victim so now she must take responsibility and not put it on something that had no part in the rape in the first place. Why kill something innocent for a crime that the father committed."- You sound as if you are partially blaming her for being apart of a monstrosity she could not stop. She had no part in the rape either so why should she be punished let alone something that doesn't think or feel or have anyone who cares about it?

"Also, rape will stay with her no matter what. It's something that scars someone emotionally. Aborting the kid won't make it any better."- It is not necessarily true that it will not make it better. She will not have to waste nine months on a baby born out of a monstrosity that is part of the monster that raped her. She also won't have to risk her life and her well-being to bring in into the world.

"It's almost like someone's kid who got ran over by a car and survived with much physical damage. Should the parent kill their child because it pains them to see their child in a helpless estate? Should the parent decide that instead of dealing with it like a mature adult, they'll just kill the child because it makes them hate the driver every time they look at the kid? You're almost saying the same thing."- First of all you have no right to say that a woman who has problems dealing with being raped is not being a mature adult. As if that is something that is easy to get through. It isn't like your analogy at all. First of all the kid in this situation is not the child of someone who scarred the parent for life. Secondly the child has become a person by developing a personality and people who care about it. People care about the child run over by the car. No one cares about a fetus. And for the record we do kill those who are in a helpless state and will never recover. Pulling the plug on vegetables is totally legal.

"Why, if a heartbeat is not so important, do we do CPR and check for heartbeats when someone is knocked unconscious or is dying? We do it to see if they are alive. This is the same. We check fro heartbeats to see if a person's living, then the "fetus" must be living if it has one. The fetus is a baby."- So just because something is alive makes it worth saving? We don't seem to think so in cases of vegetables and animals. I never said the fetus was not alive, I said that it wasn't a person. It has never been the case in terms of laws and in society that something is worth saving just because it is alive.

"No child is unwanted so there is no reason to kill it.
Steve Jobs could have been aborted, but made a computer most people use today. Steve Jobs was adopted and obviously wanted by someone."- A baby is wanted by many people yes. But there are more babies that need homes than people who want babies making those who do not get adopted unwanted children.

"Some of my best friends were adopted and in one situation, it was either my friend get aborted or a divorce. She is the greatest friend I have. So really I care a lot because just think, if they were aborted, all of my friends wouldn't be here and neither would I. Don't you know anyone adopted that you love? They could have been aborted, but their parents decided to make the right choice."- It isn't as if we would not have any more children to adopt if abortion wer illegal. In many countries people cannot get abortions. Some people cannot bring themselves to get an abortion. Others don't have the money. But it should be that person's choice as to whether or not they want to get an abortion. You cannot honestly say that you care about every aborted baby. Do you honestly feel that much pain knowing that those fetuses are getting aborted every day? Even if you friends were aborted, you would have developed other friends that you likely would love just as much. You only feel pain because of their absence because you know them. Had they been aborted, you wouldn't know them and therefore would not feel pain at their absence.

"Ok. Fine, a lot can go wrong with a pregnancy, but that's what doctors are for. Doctors are supposed to be saving lives, not ending them through abortion. If the mother is going through complications, then doctors are there to help. A lot of things can wrong in anything you do. "- And DOCTORS save the lives of the mother by giving them an abortion. The mother can still die from pregnancy even with doctors. With an abortion she doesn't even have to risk her life. Painkillers are dangerous too. It is a much better health decision for the mother to get an abortion and put her life and well-being at less risk. The mother should be the priority because she is a person who feels pain while the fetus is not.

I look forward to your citations.
Debate Round No. 3
XiaoFei98

Con

"My friend's parents got pregnant twice using birth control and condoms. Some people are more fertile than others. Is it ok to punish those who are responsible and still have a bad outcome?"- My question is: why punish the baby? Why, if you really don't want a kid, just carry out term and then put it up for adoption? There are millions of adopted kids, yes, but all pregnancies don't turn out fatal. That's why you go to DOCTOR to make sure that everything is going fine inside you. That's why a person gets ULTRASOUNDS. So they can see what's going on.

"There are clearly a lot of unwanted, unadopted children in the world. If you want to prove me otherwise, you will have to cite it. It is the most serious in Africa because of the AIDS crisis as you can see by my last couple of citations. Also according to my sources there is no lack of children up for adoption."- Yes, there are many unadopted children in the world, but they're not unwanted. If they were unwanted, no child would be adopted because no one would want to adopt and we would billions of kids running around parentless.

"Because they know that the need is greater in those countries because those children have lives that are not nearly as good as our wards of the state."- We should be helping our country first. Yes, there are many people in other countries, but I don't think you realize that there are people in those countries who want to adopt from that country. How many people really adopt internationally from the U.S.? Not many because they take care of their own country.
http://www.adoptioninstitute.org...

This is a little outdated, but still shows that adoption rates have gone up showing how many kids are wanted. The U.S. is not on that top 20 list because while we are trying to improve other countries, we are not improving ourselves. Other countries don't really adopt our children, but we feel the need to go and adopt from other countries. I'm not saying that adopting from other countries is a bad thing, I'm just saying we should start taking care of our citizens first. Other countries, however, do have good things about them. For example: China is a great country. Ever been there? It has a lot of the same things America has. We have poverty, so do they. There are farmers there, we have farmers. There are orphans there, there are orphans here. We are very much alike except population wise.


"Except they cannot help themselves because they are poor third world countries who are worse off than we are."- They can. Not all countries are poor. Some are, but the countries we adopt from most of the time are doing just fine on their own.

There are people who care about the fetus or baby. That's why people keep their child, because they care.

"No one cares about a fetus. And for the record we do kill those who are in a helpless state and will never recover. Pulling the plug on vegetables is totally legal."- You cannot say that no one cares about a fetus when there are people out there who do. If I didn't give a rip about unborn babies, I would not be sitting here typing this long essay for no reason. And yes, pulling the plug is legal and I think should be. The person had a chance at life and why make them suffer if they're going to be a vegetable the rest of their life. I agree with you on that note.

"Even if you friends were aborted, you would have developed other friends that you likely would love just as much. You only feel pain because of their absence because you know them. Had they been aborted, you wouldn't know them and therefore would not feel pain at their absence."- Yes, it makes me think about where I would be if they were aborted and yes, it's because I've gotten to know them. The point I'm trying to make is that I have hardly and friends and the friends I do have, for the most part, were adopted so without them I would be a lonely depressed kid. Also, I wouldn't be here debating with you.

"And DOCTORS save the lives of the mother by giving them an abortion. The mother can still die from pregnancy even with doctors. With an abortion she doesn't even have to risk her life. Painkillers are dangerous too. It is a much better health decision for the mother to get an abortion and put her life and well-being at less risk. The mother should be the priority because she is a person who feels pain while the fetus is not."- Not every dies when they become pregnant. There can be problems, but that is where doctors come in. Did I mention how many health problems can go wrong with abortion? It's the same amount or more and most of the time, people don't go and commit suicide because they become pregnant and bear their child. They commit suicide because they feel guilty about killing their own kid.

"So just because something is alive makes it worth saving? We don't seem to think so in cases of vegetables and animals. I never said the fetus was not alive, I said that it wasn't a person. It has never been the case in terms of laws and in society that something is worth saving just because it is alive."- No, but at least give the "fetus" a chance to live. By the way I take it, you believe the fetus is alive. So, whenever you take away life, it's killing. What else would you call it? That's my question.

The essay that I promised will come next round with the video. I was -4,000 words with the essay.



rogue

Pro

You ask why one doesn't just carry out the terms and have the baby? I have explained why many times. Pregnancy is dangerous physically and psychologically. It also can ruin opportunities for the mother that she may never have again. We are going in circles.

You aren't punishing the fetus. The fetus was not supposed to have existed. It feels absolutely no pain whereas a mother while the mother feels a lot of physical and psychological pain because of a pregnancy that she did not want.

"Yes, there are many unadopted children in the world, but they're not unwanted. If they were unwanted, no child would be adopted because no one would want to adopt and we would billions of kids running around parentless."- Ugh I just explained this. The number of children adopted is not even close to the number of children who are not adopted. This makes them unwanted. Whether or not they are unwanted is really irrelevant. The fact is that we have too many children who have no home and family and we should not be adding to that number.

"Yes, there are many people in other countries, but I don't think you realize that there are people in those countries who want to adopt from that country. How many people really adopt internationally from the U.S.? Not many because they take care of their own country."- First of all that last bit didn't even make sense. Secondly This is all irrelevant. I REALIZE PEOPLE WANT TO ADOPT IN ALL COUNTRIES FROM ALL COUNTRIES. I THOUGHT THAT WAS CLEAR FROM THE BEGINNING. STOP SAYING THAT. The fact of the matter is that the number of children not being adopted far outweighs the number that are. Until there are not enough children up for adoption, I cannot take your argument seriously.

"This is a little outdated, but still shows that adoption rates have gone up showing how many kids are wanted. The U.S. is not on that top 20 list because while we are trying to improve other countries, we are not improving ourselves. Other countries don't really adopt our children, but we feel the need to go and adopt from other countries. I'm not saying that adopting from other countries is a bad thing, I'm just saying we should start taking care of our citizens first. Other countries, however, do have good things about them. For example: China is a great country. Ever been there? It has a lot of the same things America has. We have poverty, so do they. There are farmers there, we have farmers. There are orphans there, there are orphans here. We are very much alike except population wise." Um no. China is actually very different from the U.S. culturally and yes I have been there BUT THIS IS ALL COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

"Not all countries are poor. Some are, but the countries we adopt from most of the time are doing just fine on their own."- Obviously I know not all countries are poor. For the record most countries in the world are in debt right now. I was obviously talking about the third world countries in Africa and South America which your source clearly shows as a popular place to adopt from. Even so IT'S STILL COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

"There are people who care about the fetus or baby. That's why people keep their child, because they care."- Correction. The people that keep the baby care about THEIR fetus and that is fine. But if the mother does not care about the fetus she should have the choice to abort it.

I am sorry you have problems making friends but I assure you you would make friends even if they were aborted. You are still young and growing and maturing and you will probably get a lot more friends later in life.

"Not every dies when they become pregnant. There can be problems, but that is where doctors come in. Did I mention how many health problems can go wrong with abortion? It's the same amount or more and most of the time,"- Ugh. I proved that wrong in the previous arguments. Abortion is much safer than pregnancy.

"people don't go and commit suicide because they become pregnant and bear their child. They commit suicide because they feel guilty about killing their own kid."- I beg to differ. I already explained that people who commit suicide don't do it because of one single event such as an abortion. They most already have developed a mental disorder. Abortion does not cause suicide. Plus as I said before, correlation does not prove causation. There is no proof that those women committed suicide because of the abortion. We are going in circles. On the other hand pregnancy can cause post pardom depression which can lead to suicide which I cited in previous arguments.

"No, but at least give the "fetus" a chance to live."- No. Not when the fetus completely messes up a woman's life.

"By the way I take it, you believe the fetus is alive. So, whenever you take away life, it's killing. What else would you call it? That's my question."- Sure it is killing by definition. Just as I can KILL a fly or a couple skin cells. The point is that it is not murder.
Debate Round No. 4
XiaoFei98

Con

Because almost all my points seem irrelevant and "we are going in circles", I will simply post my speech. Ignore the God parts since you are not a believer.

Murdering the Innocent

A nice quote: “If we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people to not kill each other? Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want.”

~Mother Teresa of Calcutta

People who are pro-abortion have many reasons to justify it. The first thing they say is that abortion is not murder, the thing they are taking out is simply tissue. According to About.com, people say that the “concept of personhood is different from the concept of human life.” Also, they believe that because the baby cannot live without the mother, they “cannot be regarded as a separate entity.” However, this is wrong because as long as that tissue will continue to grow and develop into a human, it has a future and the same qualities a human will have, just later on. The second thing they say is that the procedure is safe. According to the Biblical website, wholeworldinhishands.com, people say that .5% of medical abortions turn out badly for the mom’s health. This is wrong, however, because tests have been done and shown that people, who abort their child become depressed, are more prone to commit suicide, get cancers, and develops other physiological problems. Thus, both “positives” to committing abortion are wrong and the choices are not only fatal for a person’s child, but perhaps for the mom.

Abortion can only be considered murder of an innocent being. When someone surgically removes the child from the mother, they kill something that would be living. On Livestrong.com it says: “An unborn baby has a heartbeat as early as near the end of the first month of pregnancy, during week four or week five… This is just two to three weeks after conception. By this time, the heart is actually pumping blood with a steady rhythm.” This means that when people normally commit their crime in the first trimester, they did actually kill because whatever has a heartbeat is a living thing. Also, at six weeks and six days, a person can see on an ultra sound the baby’s eyes, nose, mouth, and heartbeat. When people abort their kids, they are cutting off that heartbeat that says, “I’m alive!” and killing their child. In the Bible, God clearly states in Exodus 20:13: “Thou shalt not kill,” and because abortion is murder, they are also pushing aside God’s law along with their health and a life. This Biblical quote clearly states that murdering is wrong and people who kill their kids go against God’s will which is fatal to their soul; people would assume those committing abortion are not saved. Abortion kills not only the child, but the person’s soul even more and is proved completely wrong.

In addition to people thinking abortion is not murder, they also think that it is safe. The procedure is not safe and can cause many cancers, physiological problems to the mother, and can increase the risk of a miscarriage. According to afterabortion.org, “44% [of women] complained of nervous disorders, 36% had experienced sleep disturbances, 31% had regrets about their decision, and 11% had been prescribed psychotropic medicine by their family doctor.” This proves that having an abortion can hurt you emotionally. On the same site, it shows those women after having an abortion committed suicide more than a non-pregnant woman, a woman who went through a miscarriage, and a woman who bore her child, once again showing the instability in their emotions. Also, on the same site, it states that a person has more of a chance of post-traumatic stress disorder, child neglect or abuse, drugs and alcohol, smoking, eating disorders, cervical cancer, ovarian and liver cancers, handicap children in other pregnancies, internal bleeding, infection, and more. The number of the things that can go wrong after an abortion should not be there if it is “safe.” Thus, abortion has a lot of side effects and can scar a person’s emotional stability if done and cannot be considered “safe” with amount of side effects.

Another thing that people committing abortions is that there is no such thing as an unwanted child and that their child could have had a future without them. Many people who are adopted have become great and gone to a loving family that cares about them; every adopted kid could have been aborted, but it was their parent’s choice and they made the right one. On abortionprocon.org, it states that there is a “lack of adoptable babies because abortion is legal. Over two million couples are waiting to adopt babies, and only 134,000 US children are available to be adopted as of June 2002.” So many couples cannot have a kid because of different reason, but they want one and then there are careless people who spend around $1,000 on getting rid of their kid before their born. Think of Steve Jobs who just died of cancer; he was adopted and his parents had the chance to get rid of him, but they didn’t. They kept him and he created Macintosh which most people use today; without him, some people’s favorite computer may not even exist today. As my aunt told me, “Adoption is a heroic decision made by birth parents to give life to their beautiful babies, to care and nurture them while they grow inside of them and, then with the greatest love of all, give them to another that desperately wants them and is dedicated to giving them the life of their full potential.” This means that children who die because of parents who are simply careless with lives can go to a desperately wanting family and have a life and future instead of go through pain and because unjustly murdered. Thus, abortion is wrong because the child can go to a wanting family.

Abortion should be outlawed and should be discouraged by everyone. Even though people say abortion is simply taking out some tissue, they are taking out a person, something that will grow and develop. Also, because others think that abortion doesn’t have any side effects and consider it safe, safe is not a possible word to describe abortion given the many side effects it has with a person’s physical and emotional health. Adoption should always be there in the person’s mind, not abortion. Abortion should not even exist and adoption should be the #1 decision if a person can’t afford or doesn’t want their child because there is no such thing as an unwanted child if others are willing to take him or her in. In conclusion, abortion doesn’t solve anything, kills something that could have had a future and a potential to become great, cannot even come close to safe, doesn’t give others a chance of parenthood, and most of all disobeying God’s will for his children. Thus, there is no justification for murder because of selfish ambitions.

This is what I wrote for a class of mine. I also promised a video. In the end it talks about God so that part will be irrelevant to you, but in the beginning it talks about the Holocaust and abortion and relating the two so you may think that the video is irrelevant in the beginning, but it has to do with the topic.

http://180movie.com...

I will close out with a video and my speech/essay. No, it doesn't contain stuff about pregnancy, but I made this quite awhile ago before I started debating with you. We are talking about abortion, not the risks of pregnancy. Good luck and nice debating with you. Vote Con.

rogue

Pro

First of all if it is wrong to kill anything with a heartbeat, as the article states, then is it murder when we kill vegetables that would still have a heartbeat and still be alive were we not to pull the plug? That is legal. Not to mention that Con never refuted my Roe vs Wade argument since abortion is really a legal issue, and the Supreme Court says that it is unconstitutional to outlaw abortion.

As for the health risks, I have made it clear that pregnancy is a much more dangerous option psychologically and physically.

As for "no unwanted children," I have also shown that while they are not "unwanted" necessarily, the number of children not adopted far outweighs the number that are, and there is no good reason we should add to that number.

I am not going to even watch the video.

Con has not provided any evidence that has not been refuted. She has refused to refute some of my arguments. Clearly Con has just kept asserting the same arguments over and over even when they has been refuted. Vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by rogue 3 years ago
rogue
Just saying, I don't care. I don't need your input. It's an extremely annoying thing when someone votebombs you. If I lose the conduct vote so what? I still made a better case and I would rather be real with someone than be polite when they screwed me over. I really appreciate Fighting Falcons feedback because both of us can work on what we slacked on whereas 16kadams contributed nothing to the debate but biased crap. I'm gonna say what needs to be said.
Posted by XiaoFei98 3 years ago
XiaoFei98
Just saying, I don't think calling someone a sore loser and flipping them off is a good way to earn votes.
Posted by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 3 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
Con starts with an argument about god owning person's body, which Pro refutes by showing that due to separation of church and state, outlawing abortion on grounds of religious reasons is wrong and Con concedes.

Con then puts the blame on the mother for irresponsibility and the father in cases of rape. Pro shows that "irresponsibility" may not be a factor since pregnancies would occur regardless of protection. Con's response is an unsupported claim that protection works 99% of the time. Pro's response was a personal example. Pro then shows how the possible health risks to the woman due to rape should outweigh those of the fetus's. Con seems to say that the mother should bear the fetus till it is born and can then give it up for abortion which failed to address Pro's health risks and depression points.

Both debaters argue that studies regarding adoption are in their favor. Neither actually used the those studies to make their point, with Pro making a list and Con making none.

Con's next contention involves saying that abortion is murder. She defines killing anything with a heartbeat as murder. Pro's analogies of animals and the heart beating after death while not directly related to abortion expose Con's logic as false. Con then shows that heartbeats are used to determine whether something is living. The construction worker analogy was proven false by Pro since information about the fetus can be obtained.

Con then asserts that abortion isn't safe but makes no case simply pointing to external links. Pro does the exact same thing and says that pregnancies are just as dangerous. Con totally drops it and says that doctors should be saving lives.

At the end, the only points left standing were Pro's contention that abortion is justified if there are health risks to the mother, and that the health of the mother must be taken into greater consideration than those of the unborn fetus. All potential problems that Con raised about abortion were answered by Pro.
Posted by rogue 3 years ago
rogue
i mean i clearly had better spelling and grammar
Posted by rogue 3 years ago
rogue
16kadams you seriously votebombed me fvck you.
Posted by rogue 3 years ago
rogue
16kadams. you clearly didnt read the debate. i used much better sources not to mention that you are clearly a sore loser. you clearly dont understand the importance of Roe Vs wade. It said that IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO OUTLAW ABORTION. You are honestly stupid or just blinded by wanting to be right.
Posted by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 3 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
I don't think you should expect viewers to watch videos that you provided links to. Everything you say must be included in the debate.
Posted by XiaoFei98 3 years ago
XiaoFei98
Watch the video. I didn't just put it there for the sake of videos. It's a good video. Watch it please.
4 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Vote Placed by Jellopants 2 years ago
Jellopants
XiaoFei98rogueTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: What was Con going for? Not putting any contentions to refute, then getting beaten so badly afterwards must really hurt. Con loses conduct points for his/her deliberate attempt at skewing this debate in his/her favor. Shame on you.
Vote Placed by 000ike 3 years ago
000ike
XiaoFei98rogueTied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: counter to the bias vote of 16kadams
Vote Placed by F-16_Fighting_Falcon 3 years ago
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
XiaoFei98rogueTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: RFD in comments.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 3 years ago
16kadams
XiaoFei98rogueTied
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Total points awarded:51 
Reasons for voting decision: well, one I agree with con, 2 he makes a lot more sense, and 3 rouge was evil to me when I did this, 4. he had better scources, 5. rouge, the Roe v. wade is still unconstitutional the supreme court can't make laws THEY MADE A LAW SAYING YOU CAN'T MAKE A LAW. SO 1,2,3 BANG i WIN 6. rouge more scources doesn't mean better ones and I throw her the conduct because she is an athiest and god was put in there (I made that mistake too)