The Instigator
Viper-King
Pro (for)
Losing
6 Points
The Contender
martianshark
Con (against)
Winning
9 Points

Abortion

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
martianshark
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/19/2012 Category: Politics
Updated: 4 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,931 times Debate No: 23694
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (7)
Votes (3)

 

Viper-King

Pro

Nothing will be stated in Round 1 except acceptance. Let's argue now.
martianshark

Con

I accept. Since you are Pro (for) abortion, I assume you are on the side of abortion, while I am against abortion.
Debate Round No. 1
Viper-King

Pro

Okay. The resolution is "Abortion should remain legal". My opponent is arguing abortion should not remain legal. Both sides have the BOP and must prove something in order to win. I hope we have a good debate and do well. Thank you.

Abortion (Operational): The terminating of a pregnancy by the removing or expelling of an embryo or fetus from the uterus.

My Arguments:

1. An abortion is a fundamental right for a woman.

"A woman's right to choose abortion is a "fundamental right" recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court in the Jan. 22, 1973 case of Roe v. Wade." This is true. A woman has the right of an abortion because it her body. Her body is her right. An embyro and/or fetus in a body is technically still her property. She can do what she wants with her property. Since it has been confirmed by Roe vs. Wade, it is legally a fundamental right.

2. Abortions reduce injury and death.

"Access to legal, professionally-performed abortions reduces injury and death caused by unsafe illegal abortions." The World Health Organization found in 2006 that homemade abortions cause 68,000 maternal deaths each year in countries where abortion is not legal.

3. Anti-abortion stances are usually religious.

The pro-life stance is usually a religious belief and threatens the vital separation of church and state. Religious beliefs should not be a foundation for law in the United States.

4. Modern abortion procedures are safe.

The risk of a woman's death from abortion is less than one in 100,000. While, the risk of a woman dying from giving birth is 13.3 deaths per 100,000 pregnancies. A 1993 fertility investigation of 10,767 women by the Joint Royal College of General Practitioners and Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists found that women who had at minumum two abortions experienced the same future fertility as those who had at least two natural pregnancies.

5. Abortion gives option.

Abortion gives parents the option to choose not to birth babies with severe and life-threatening medical conditions. Fragile X syndrome, the most common genetic form of mental retardation, affects about 1 in 4,000 males and 1 in 8,000 females. One in 800 babies have Down Syndrome, and one in 3,500 babies are born with Cystic Fibrosis. It is not right to sentence a child to life with a mental handicap.

6. Abortion lowers crime.

Many estimates claim that legalized abortion accounted for as much as 50% of the drop in murder, property crime, and violent crime between 1973 and 2001. Teenage girls, single ladies, and poor women are more likely to have unintended pregnancies. Unwanted babies are often raised poor, increasing their chances of leading criminal lives in adulthood.

7. A baby should not come into this world unwanted.

49% of all pregnancies among American women are unintended . Having children is an important lifetime decision that requires responsible consideration, preparation, and planning.

Well, that's all for now. Good luck to my opponent.
martianshark

Con

Allow me to start by saying that you have given absolutely no sources. Thus, all of your arguments are technically illegitimate. I will rebut your arguments nevertheless, but I want to see sources for all arguments so far in the next round. Otherwise, your arguments should not count.

1.
Your first argument is based on the law. Since my stance is that the law should be changed, this argument doesn't work. I think that being pregnant does not give you the right to kill your child. Just because the law says otherwise does not mean it's right.

2.
If abortion is illegal, people shouldn't be getting illegal abortions. If you do something illegal and die, that's your problem.

3.
So? Many religions believe that abortion is murder, and there's no reason they can't. Even many atheists believe this. And who said religion shouldn't be the base of law? This argument doesn't make sense since many things religions are against, such as murder, rape, and theft, are crimes. A lot of the law is based on religion, even if most people think of those laws as natural. Remember back when slavery was legal? Many religions were against it, but today we naturally accept slavery as being wrong.

Most importantly, this argument has nothing to do with why abortion should be legal.

4.
First of all, the safety of abortion has nothing to do with whether or not killing the fetus is okay. Second, you have no sources. Third, both 1 in 100,000 and 13 in 100,000 are extremely insignificant. The difference is very small; your chances of dying either way are almost zero. Plus, you shouldn't decide on a matter of life and death just because you might be one of those 13 in 100,000 women. Either way, your chances of death aren't likely.

5.
Sentenced to... life? What the...

Being alive is ALWAYS better than being dead. Even if the child is handicapped, that's no reason to kill it. So what if he has a mental handicap? The child can still enjoy life. Some things might be difficult for them, but it is certainly better than being dead.

We make all kinds of machines, features, and special opportunities to make things easier for the handicapped. But according to your logic, we should just put them out of their misery and kill them off.

By the way, why do you get to decide whether it's "right" to sentence someone to life? In that case, I say it is not right to have an abortion. I win.

6.
How in the world can you link birth to crime and use it as an excuse for abortion? Until you can explain how birth is related to crime, let's move on.

7.
If having children is an important lifetime decision that requires responsible consideration, preparation, and planning, why weren't they more responsible? If you don't want a baby, don't have sex. Or at least wear a condom. If abortion was made illegal, they would figure this out, thus making them more responsible parents. With abortion illegal, the percentage of unwanted pregnancies would lower significantly since the parents know they can't get an abortion.

Now for my own arguments. For organization, I'm going to number my arguments eight onward.

8. Abortion is murder
This is of course the strongest reason why it should be illegal. The definition of murder is "The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice." http://www.thefreedictionary.com... In this case, the human responsible for the killing is both the mother and the doctor, and anyone else involved. The human being killed is the fetus or embryo. For this argument, you must understand that fetuses are counted as humans. It is a stage of human life, just as babies, teenagers, and elderly people are at different stages of human life. It doesn't make sense for them to not count as humans just because they're not out of the uterus yet.

9. There are other options.
If you've ever listened to or been in an abortion debate, I'm sure you've heard this argument. There are alternatives to abortion, most notably adoption. Many pro life organizations are willing to help women through pregnancy and give the baby to another couple immediately after birth to prevent abortion. This is a much more humane option since you are not killing the baby, who can then live happily with another family. Please, do not rebut this with your "birth is more dangerous than abortion" argument. Your chances of dying either way are extremely slim, and it is unimportant overall.

It is also important to be responsible beforehand. Especially if you're a minor, you should recognize the consequences of having sex, and be responsible about it.

10. What if you were aborted?
If you were aborted, you would never have had a chance to exist. How would you feel about your mother deciding to kill you? How is abortion okay when you may very well have been aborted yourself?

11. The mother should not be in control of the baby's life
Over in ancient Greece, the father of the family had the power of life and death over his children, no reason required. This is still legal today; the only difference is that it's the mother in control, and the child has to be inside the womb. When pro abortion people speak of this, they talk about "women's rights" and about how women have a right to their body. However, abortion isn't about the mother's body. It's about the child's. The child has a right to his body too. The mother has no right to kill it just because she's connected to it. Her body is one thing; the child's body is another.

12. Late term abortion
I'm not going to put this here, but search "late term abortion" on Google Images. Take a look at the procedure diagrams and bloody bodies. I think this alone is more than enough to say that late term abortion is most certainly murder, if not all types of abortion.

13. We seem to have this pattern of disregarding types of humans...
Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time, America allowed the slavery of Africans. Eventually, after hundreds of years, it was abolished, and black people were considered humans. Later, a man named Alolf convinced many people certain types of humans, such as Jews, should be put out of their misery. Nowadays, most Germans agree that Jews are just as human as they are. Next, America made abortion legal, disregarding the lives of unborn babies, and then euthanasia. Eventually, we should overcome this as well. My point is, abortion is yet another beat of a pattern in which humans disregard a type of human life. After abortion is made illegal again, something else will probably come up. All types of human discrimination have eventually been considered wrong, and the same thing will happen with abortion.

That's all I have to say for now. I look forward to my opponent's arguments.
Debate Round No. 2
Viper-King

Pro

Viper-King forfeited this round.
martianshark

Con

I'm surprised at your forfeit. I've seen you online several times recently.

Since I have already made my arguments and rebutted all of Pro's, I have nothing else to say at this point.
Debate Round No. 3
Viper-King

Pro

First of all, I put my sources in the Comments section right after I posted arguments since I absolutely forgot to put them in my case. I also gave the Bibliography because I did use books. So let me tell you why I wasn't able to make it those rounds. Give my opponent a conduct point for me forfeiting a rounds. The story is I went to a sleepover and some very unfortunate things happened to me. Anyways, I'll try to give a reply. Please excuse my forfeit and I ask my audience to base their focus on arguments instead of conduct.

1. An abortion is a fundamental right for a woman.

I think you misunderstand what I meant. I didn't mean that the part about Roe vs. Wade confirming it correct was my argument. I just meant to confirm that it is legally a human right. This was my actual argument: "A woman has the right of an abortion because it her body. Her body is her right. An embyro and/or fetus in a body is technically still her property. She can do what she wants with her property." Being pregnant means that the embyro/fetus is in your body which means it is your property. Thus an abortion is a fundamental right for a woman because it is her property.

2. Abortions reduce injury and death.

I meant that without legalizing abortion, there will be homemade abortion which would hurt more people. With legalized abortion, there are less deaths for the person having the abortion and there are less injury with abortion legalized. I don't get how doing something illegal is that person's problem. If someone came out and got his machine gun to kill a bunch of people, would it "be your problem"? Just like murder, abortion hurts others.

3. Abortion stances are usually religious.

A pro-life stance based on religion should not be upheld in our laws due to the violation of church and state separation. Since the majority of abortion stances are based on religion, abortion should not be legalized based on someone's religious beliefs. They can believe that abortion is murder, they just can't legalize abortion based on their religious beliefs. Um, the government in the Separation of Church and State states religion isn't the basis of our laws.

4. Modern abortion procedures are safe.

1st, the safety of abortion provides an alternative to homemade abortions which cause less safety for the mothers. 2nd of all, all my sources are in the Comments section. 3rd of all, you're math is bad. Let's say how many deaths are in 1 billion people? 133,000! That's a lot of women dying. How about our safe medical procedures? 10,000 deaths. Our safe medical procedure just saved 123,000 lives which help much more. 0.13% for unsafe homemade procedures with 0.00001% for safe mechanical procedures. Thus, legal abortion saves lives.

5. Abortion gives option.

No, it's better for the parent to decide if they are able to take care of a mentally deficient child. Giving option is better than forcing someone to make the decision. It's not about the right to sentence someone to life, it's about the parents' freedom to. We are arguing about the freedom that parents have when they have no money to get machines and features.

6. Abortion reduces crime.

Many of the "criminals" are doing their action to get food for their children when they have no economic capability. That's why they do crimes. The choice to have an abortion means they can reach economic stability.

7. A baby should not come into this world unwanted.

You still never explained why a baby should come into this world unwanted.

Rebuttal:

8. Abortion is murder.

Fetuses are not biologically proven to be humans. Until they are, the removing or expelling of an embyro or fetus is not human. They are not humans because it has not been proven that they have a personality or a character. Thus it is not murder.

9. There are options.

I have 3 points which will destroy our entire contention. 1st of all, an embyro/fetus is not a human. 2nd of all, there are many alternatives to abortion but their is still abortion as an option. 3rd of all, taking away the option of abortion is just like banning adoption and one of the alternatives. Thus, abortion is one of those abortions.

10. What if you were aborted?

If I were aborted, I wouldn't have known I existed. This is irrelevant.

11. The mother should not be in control of the baby's life.

1st of all, it's not a baby. It's not a child. It's an embyro or fetus. Thus, it's the woman's property. The fetus or embyro is not a child. It is the property of the mother. Thus, the the mother has the control of her own property.

12. Late term abortion.

We are not arguing about late term abortion. We are arguing about abortion.

13.
I don't get what your point is. Where are your sources?

Sorry for not producing good arguments. My computer was literally fixed four hours ago.
martianshark

Con

Putting your sources in the comments doesn't exactly count... but okay.

1.
You're still arguing on a legal basis, and it still doesn't work. Since my stance is that abortion should not remain legal (as you stated), this argument fails. I think a fetus/embryo is a life separate from the mother which is not her property, and that she should not be allowed to kill it. If a woman's five year old kid is her property, do you still think it should be legal for her to kill it? Just because something's legal doesn't necessarily mean it's right.

2.
And what about those babies? They're people too, and therefore a lot more people would die with abortion legal than illegal. Besides that, my original rebuttal still stands.

3.
This argument is irrelevant and doesn't make sense. You have not rebutted any of the points I made, and have just repeated what you already stated. I could rebut this with the same rebuttal I made in the last round.

4.
YOUR math is bad. Your numbers aren't any more significant just because you raised the ratio. Are you aware that 133,000 would fit into a billion over 7,518 times? (1) I should also probably note that there is nowhere near a billion people in the US. There are 311,591,917 people, about half of which are women, about half of which are Pro life, and even less of the Pro choice women having had an abortion. (2)(3) This leaves you with less than 77,897,979 women having abortions.(4) That's nowhere near a billion, and therefore 123,000 women have not been supposedly "saved" by abortion.

And once again, my original rebuttal still stands for the most part. Just because abortion is slightly safer doesn't mean you should get an abortion because of that. The motive of abortion is almost never to save your own life; it's to avoid having a kid. And abortion does not save lives; you are excluding the lives of the unborn babies killed in abortion.

5.
How can the parent even know if the child is handicapped when it's an embryo? And once again, why does the parent get to decide to kill it? Every human has every right to live; it shouldn't be the parent's decision. When I spoke of machines and features, I was talking about wheelchair ramps on buses, special job opportunities at Goodwill, and things like that. Once again, according to your logic, the parents should be allowed to kill the handicapped person at any age.

If the parents can't afford something like the actual wheelchair, many charities can be of great help. There is still no need for abortion just because of a handicap, and it generally isn't the reason for abortion anyway.

6.
That makes no sense. Have you ever heard of these things called homeless shelters and charities? Where I live, it's possible for a homeless person to get a hot meal every day. And do you have any proof that stealing food for your family is a common crime? Even if it's true, it's not a very serious crime like murder or a bank robbery. Honestly, I think this argument is kind of silly. You're basically saying it's wrong for poor people to have kids.

7.
I thought I made this pretty clear. If abortion was illegal, there would be less unwanted pregnancies because the parents know abortion isn't an option. They would be more responsible beforehand, instead of taking care of things after the pregnancy has already started. Thus, less babies would come into the world unwanted.

8.
I could rebut most of this with my original argument. What do you mean they haven't been "proven" to be humans? Fetus is obviously a stage of human life. In the same way that babies and the elderly are humans, fetuses and embryos are stages of human life too, and you haven't proven otherwise.

9.
None of those arguments make sense. Babies are just as human when inside the womb as outside. Abortion shouldn't be an option since the other options would allow the person to live. And it wouldn't be like taking away adoption because there is absolutely no reason why adoption should be illegal, while there are many reasons why abortion should be. I don't know what you mean by "abortion is one of those abortions."

10.
If there is an afterlife, you would know you could have existed if you hadn't been aborted. If there is no afterlife, you wouldn't know you existed no matter what stage you died at. According to this logic, it's okay to kill a man because they wouldn't know they ever existed. And why is it irrelevant? You haven't actually rebutted anything here.

11.
You ignored my arguments, and instead rambled about technical terms and how fetuses don't count as babies. You didn't actually rebut any of my arguments.

12.
Late term abortion is a type of abortion. The resolution was "Abortion", and you stated yourself that you would be arguing that abortion should be legal. Since you have apparently conceded to this argument, you are saying that abortion should not always be allowed. I have won this argument.

13.
Read my argument carefully. "My point is, abortion is yet another beat of a pattern in which humans disregard a type of human life." In other words, abortion is wrong, but it's going to take a while for everyone to agree, just like these other cases of human discrimination. Sourcing isn't necessary because we all know that slavery was once legal, that Hitler killed Jews, and that abortion was legalized in this country.

(1) http://www.wolframalpha.com...
(2) http://quickfacts.census.gov...
(3) http://www.debate.org...
(4)http://www.wolframalpha.com...
Debate Round No. 4
Viper-King

Pro

Viper-King forfeited this round.
martianshark

Con

Vote Con.
Debate Round No. 5
7 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 7 records.
Posted by 16kadams 4 years ago
16kadams
Plagiarism (pro): http://abortion.procon.org...
Posted by Viper-King 4 years ago
Viper-King
LOL!! RTN vote-bombed me cuz I countered his troll account. He technically admittd to me he was the troll account
Posted by 16kadams 4 years ago
16kadams
2 made me lol
Posted by Viper-King 4 years ago
Viper-King
Aw, damn it. I forgot my sources. My sources are:

1.The Guttmacher Institute, "Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States," www.guttmacher.org, July 2008

2.Karen Pazol, PhD, Sonya B. Gamble, MS, et al., "Abortion Surveillance - United States, 2006," CDC - Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, Nov. 27, 2009

3.Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health, "Women's Health and Health Care Reform: The Key Role of Comprehensive Health Care," www.mailman.hs.columbia.edu, 2008

4.Rachel K. Jones, Mia R. S. Zolna, et al., "Abortion in the United States: Incidence and Access to Services, 2005," Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, Mar. 4, 2008

5.Terry Eastland, "The Forgotten Option," The Weekly Standard, Jan. 29, 2003

6.Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, "Member Organizations," www.rcrc.org (accessed Apr. 5, 2010)

7.Lydia Saad, "Abortion Issue Laying Low in 2008 Campaign," Gallup.com, May 22, 2008

8.Lydia Saad, "Abortion Issue Laying Low in 2008 Campaign," Gallup.com, May 22, 2008

9.Lydia Saad, "More Americans 'Pro-Life' Than 'Pro-Choice' for First Time," Gallup.com, May 15, 2009

10.Stuart W. G. Derbyshire, PhD, "Can Fetuses Feel Pain?," British Medical Journal, Apr. 29, 2006

11.David A Grimes, MD, et al., "Unsafe Abortion: The Preventable Pandemic," Lancet, Oct. 2006

12.The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, "Induced Abortion," www.acog.org, Nov. 2008

13.Amnesty International, "Deadly Delivery: The Maternal Health Care Crisis in the USA," www.amnesty.org, 2010

14.Peter Frank, MD, et al., "The Effect of Induced Abortion on Subsequent Fertility," Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology of the British Commonwealth, June 1993

15.Ann Kurth, PhD, et al. "Reproductive and Sexual Health Benefits in Private Health Insurance Plans in Washington State," Family Planning Perspectives, July/Aug. 2001
Posted by Viper-King 4 years ago
Viper-King
Aw, damn it. I forgot my sources. My sources are:

1.The Guttmacher Institute, "Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States," www.guttmacher.org, July 2008

2.Karen Pazol, PhD, Sonya B. Gamble, MS, et al., "Abortion Surveillance - United States, 2006," CDC - Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, Nov. 27, 2009

3.Columbia University Mailman School of Public Health, "Women's Health and Health Care Reform: The Key Role of Comprehensive Health Care," www.mailman.hs.columbia.edu, 2008

4.Rachel K. Jones, Mia R. S. Zolna, et al., "Abortion in the United States: Incidence and Access to Services, 2005," Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, Mar. 4, 2008

5.Terry Eastland, "The Forgotten Option," The Weekly Standard, Jan. 29, 2003

6.Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, "Member Organizations," www.rcrc.org (accessed Apr. 5, 2010)

7.Lydia Saad, "Abortion Issue Laying Low in 2008 Campaign," Gallup.com, May 22, 2008

8.Lydia Saad, "Abortion Issue Laying Low in 2008 Campaign," Gallup.com, May 22, 2008

9.Lydia Saad, "More Americans 'Pro-Life' Than 'Pro-Choice' for First Time," Gallup.com, May 15, 2009

10.Stuart W. G. Derbyshire, PhD, "Can Fetuses Feel Pain?," British Medical Journal, Apr. 29, 2006

11.David A Grimes, MD, et al., "Unsafe Abortion: The Preventable Pandemic," Lancet, Oct. 2006

12.The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, "Induced Abortion," www.acog.org, Nov. 2008

13.Amnesty International, "Deadly Delivery: The Maternal Health Care Crisis in the USA," www.amnesty.org, 2010

14.Peter Frank, MD, et al., "The Effect of Induced Abortion on Subsequent Fertility," Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology of the British Commonwealth, June 1993

15.Ann Kurth, PhD, et al. "Reproductive and Sexual Health Benefits in Private Health Insurance Plans in Washington State," Family Planning Perspectives, July/Aug. 2001
Posted by DouggyFresh 4 years ago
DouggyFresh
Or I mean that there is nothing bad about abortions?
Posted by DouggyFresh 4 years ago
DouggyFresh
So... you're arguing that there is nothing good about abortions?
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by 16kadams 4 years ago
16kadams
Viper-KingmartiansharkTied
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Total points awarded:61 
Reasons for voting decision: counter RTN, that did not show pro deserved all 7 points. But I olny countered 6 as 1 point for FF
Vote Placed by AlwaysMoreThanYou 4 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Viper-KingmartiansharkTied
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Total points awarded:01 
Reasons for voting decision: Double forfeit. I may revisit for arguments.
Vote Placed by RTN1994 4 years ago
RTN1994
Viper-KingmartiansharkTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: PRO did not make valid points, instead used statistics taken from sites to back up his illegitimate cases. Also, just because something is law does not make it right, at one time slavery was the law, was that right? This PRO in general has a legacy of high intelligence and fancy lingo but rarely stays on topic and usually becomes wordy in order to confuse and throw off the oponent!