The Instigator
Right_or_Wrong
Con (against)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
Romanii
Pro (for)
Winning
14 Points

Abortion

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
Romanii
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/14/2013 Category: Health
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 583 times Debate No: 42364
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (0)
Votes (2)

 

Right_or_Wrong

Con

I have to ask you when is it except able to kill a baby? You see when people say "only when there is a good reason for it." I always ask when is it a good reason? I ask this of you because if there is a good reason for killing a baby does that mean people can kill other people if there is a good reason for it? I cannot ever think of a good reason to think of killing people and I can never think of a reason to kill a baby. Babies are so precious(have you ever held a baby?) when you hold a baby you just fell like you are holding the most precious thing in the world they look so cute(picture the most amazing painting and babies are ten times more amazing) and if anything ever happened to that baby hat you are holding then your heart would just drop into your stomach. Yes some times they can be annoying but that doesn't mean that you should kill the baby, it that was true that being annoying can get people killed many people would be dead right now. I want to know what would be a good reason for killing something that amazing something that precious?
Romanii

Pro

You started off by asking the question, "...when is it except able to kill a baby?"
First of all, abortion is NOT the killing of a baby which has already been born; abortion is to stop a cluster of cells (an embryo) from continued replication. That cluster of cells has no consciousness at all at the point that an abortion generally happens; therefore, it is not really a human being yet. Additionally, there is scientific evidence that a fetus actually doesn't feel any pain in its first 24 weeks of growth (1).
Second of all, there ARE some situations where abortions are necessary:
1) Rape Victims- if a woman becomes pregnant as a result of rape, then she never had any choice in the matter. She may not be emotionally ready for the responsibility of parenthood, and no one has the right to put such a huge burden on someone who isn't ready for it
2) Poverty- sometimes, a woman is simply not able to financially support a baby and. again, no one has the right to force that sort of burden on someone.

You went on to state that "...when you hold a baby you just fell like you are holding the most precious thing in the world they look so cute...I want to know what would be a good reason for killing something that amazing something that precious?"
Go Google a picture of an embryo. Does that look like something you would like to hold?
I don't think so. Yet, that is what an abortion is actually "killing": an unconscious lump of cells.
You don't seem to understand that abortion doesn't kill actual living babies.

I agree that most of the time, unwanted pregnancy occurs as a result of irresponsibility, but sometimes abortion is really needed for the safety of the mother.

SOURCES:
(1) http://www.newscientist.com...
Debate Round No. 1
Right_or_Wrong

Con

Okay I will start off when you said "abortion is NOT the killing of a baby which has already been born; abortion is to stop a cluster of cells (an embryo) from continued replication" You are partially right, it is not killing a baby that has already been born because the baby has not been born the baby is still inside the uterus and yes the baby is a cluster of cells but so are you and I we are all a cluster of cells. If you want to stop clusters of cells from growing then children who are growing should be added to that list.
You also said that "a fetus actually doesn't feel any pain in its first 24 weeks of growth" which is incorrect because the baby will start feeling pain at around 10 weeks.
1) Rape Victims-(we are talking forced rape) a woman is less likely to get pregnant due to rape because her body is resisting the man who is forcing it on her. Also if a woman does get pregnant due to rape she could put the baby up for adoption there are many families who want children but can't have any of their own.
2)Poverty- same thing they could put the baby up for adoption

You asked "Does that look like something you would like to hold?" yes I would hold any one of them because they are still babies you see the embryo pictures are just unfinished pieces of art but they still have beauty of their own. If you want to have an example people who are missing limbs of something happened to them in the womb they are still beautiful in their own way. They may not be 100% but they are still amazing in their own way.
Also when you say ""killing": an unconscious lump of cells." yes you are KILLING but also someone who hit their head really hard and became unconscious for a few minutes, does that mean that for the few minutes they are unconscious they are fair game to be killed.

Sources:
(1) http://www.prolifephysicians.org...
(2) http://downloads.frc.org...
(3) http://www.christianliferesources.com...
Romanii

Pro

You have said that "you and I we are all a cluster of cells."
However, we are CONSCIOUS clusters of cells who can feel pain and have emotional attachments in this world. Embryos are clusters of cells who are totally unconscious, can't feel pain and have no capability of feeling emotions.
Later in your argument you compared abortion to killing an unconscious man, but that analogy doesn't work at all because that man HAS been conscious before, most probably has people who love and care about him, and would not want to die. An embryo has never been conscious before and doesn't care whether or not they die because they simply don't have the mental capacity to think or feel any sort of emotion whatsoever.

You then stated that "the baby will start feeling pain at around 10 weeks."
However, I have found yet an other article with ample scientific evidence proving that the fetus feels pain around their 24th week (1). And by the way, even if your statistic is correct, most abortions happen even before the 10th week of the baby's development (2). I realize that the source I have cited also shows that some abortions are done very late in the baby's development. I am not in support of those types of abortions; however, as stated in the article, the majority of abortions happen within the first 8-12 weeks of the fetus's growth.

In response to my point that sometimes abortion is necessary for survival, you have mostly responded by saying the mother can let the baby be born and then put it up for adoption. However, just taking care of the baby once it has been born is not the only reason why someone wouldn't be ready for maternity.
What if the mother doesn't have enough money to go on maternal leave? (Many companies don't pay during that time)
What if the mother isn't ready for the pain that comes with the entire process of childbirth?
And sometimes, pregnancy/childbirth can put the mother's life at risk (3), in which case it is much more important to protect the life of the mother rather than the "life" of an unconscious lump of cells.

Abortion is not the killing of a baby. It is the protecting of a mother by removing a burden; a burden that is unconscious, does not feel pain, and doesn't even know it exists.

SOURCES
(1) http://www.theguardian.com...
(2) http://www.lifesitenews.com...
(3) http://www.usatoday.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Right_or_Wrong

Con

you say that the baby in the womb is " clusters of cells who are totally unconscious, can't feel pain and have no capability of feeling emotions." now there have been many studies on what you have said but according to Tony Perkins "22 days later, the child"s heart begins to circulate his own blood" & "At six weeks of life, electrical brain activity can be detected" so the baby has brain activity only after six weeks. now I don't truly know much about all that I am no scientist but I believe that doctors will call their patients if the patients heart stops beating or if the patient is brain dead (i.e. if their is no electrical brain activity). Now if death is when the heart stops shouldn't life begin when the heart starts? And if the heart starts at 22 days after conception wouldn't that mean that the baby is alive at that point? If the doctors will call a patient dead when there is no electrical brain activity shouldn't there be life when there is electrical brain activity? And if the electrical brain activity starts at six weeks wouldn't that mean life is called (again) when the electrical brain activity starts?
You said "someone wouldn't be ready for maternity." now I understand that women don't like to be fat but is that really a reason to kill
"What if the mother doesn't have enough money to go on maternal leave?" well I have three older sisters and two of them were pregnant(once upon a time) and neither one of them went on maternal leave, so it is possible to not go on maternal leave.

Sources:
(1) http://downloads.frc.org...
Romanii

Pro

Just because a fetus is technically "alive" after 22 days doesn't mean anything. It only matters when the fetus actually becomes self-aware of its own existence and can feel pain. Plants are also technically alive, yet we mass-produce them and then ruthlessly slaughter them for food. Why does no one care? Because plants don't have emotions, nor can they feel pain.

Realize that I am not saying that a fetus is worth as much as a plant; the potential for human life certainly makes a fetus worth more than a plant. And I do not promote abortions as a solution to every unwanted pregnancy; most unwanted pregnancies are the result of irresponsibility and lack of foresight. However, there are many cases where abortions are actually needed for the welfare of the mother, in which case it is more important to take care of the living, sentient being then the unconscious lump of cells.

You seem to underestimate how hard it can be to be a mother. The entire process from pregnancy to childbirth to raising the kid is difficult. I'm not a woman myself, so I can't speak from personal experience but I know from other people that it is a big load to take on, and not everyone is physically, mentally, and/or emotionally ready for it.
Debate Round No. 3
Right_or_Wrong

Con

Okay I cannot argue with you about the fact that they are unconscious, but I can tell you this much even if I was unconscious I would still feel pain. Sometimes I wake up from a dream just because of the smallest amount of pain, now babies in the womb they are in a state of sleeping and the earlier you are in the pregnancy the deeper the sleep (plus the fact that they are not fully formed yet). Scientist have proven that babies while in the womb flinch when an abortion is happening there for they do feel the "doctor" performing the surgery, so therefore the babies do feel pain.
Now I don't think that any one is ever ready to experience pain neither mentally or physically. There are people who join the army and come back from the war traumatized because of what they saw over there now they were trained to be prepared but no amount of training can fully prepare you for that. Same with physically people can train to endure pain but they can never be fully trained to understand that kind of pain.
I am not underestimating that kind of pain but if they don't endure it now then when will they. I often say endure the pain now so when it comes around again you will be more prepared for it. (I am not heartless but I think if people aren't ready for it at one point they will never be ready for it until they endure through it)
Romanii

Pro

"Scientist have proven that babies while in the womb flinch when an abortion is happening there for they do feel the doctor" performing the surgery, so therefore the babies do feel pain."
I would like to see some sort of evidence of this finding from a scientific article of some sort. As far as I know, reseearch shows that a fetus's nervous system isn't developed enough to feel any pain before roughly the 24th week of development.

"I am not underestimating that kind of pain but if they don't endure it now then when will they."
When they truly want to have a baby, then they will be ready for the pain. No one should have to be forced into undergoing the process of maternity, and abortions provide a way for people to escape the process when it is needed for their own safety,
Debate Round No. 4
Right_or_Wrong

Con

Right_or_Wrong forfeited this round.
Romanii

Pro

Extend all arguments.
Vote Pro.
Debate Round No. 5
No comments have been posted on this debate.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by supershamu 2 years ago
supershamu
Right_or_WrongRomaniiTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Though I agree with Con in abortion being wrong on all levels, Pro made a stronger case both emotionally and evidentially for abortion. Con's spelling and grammar was a bit off and the FF earns Pro the conduct point. Con's round 4 was very speculative and the baby flinching thing was not sited with any evidence. Con's round 2 was a bit strange as it sounds like it was implying that the common reasoning for having an abortion is to stop cells from growing. I may have misunderstood it but that is what I got from it. To be honest I feel Pro's sources were better too and he sited all evidence he set forward.
Vote Placed by DudeStop 2 years ago
DudeStop
Right_or_WrongRomaniiTied
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Total points awarded:07 
Reasons for voting decision: Conduct to Pro for FF's. S/G was obvious. Con tried to assert things without sources. Con also conceded to many arguments. Had he backed his up, I might have given him both sources and arguments. Yet without sources, it can be regarded as unproven, because that which can be proven without evidence can be dismissed without evidence as well. (Hitchens) Great Debate.