The Instigator
FemaleGamer
Pro (for)
Losing
61 Points
The Contender
Xie-Xijivuli
Con (against)
Winning
117 Points

Abortion

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/18/2009 Category: Health
Updated: 7 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,346 times Debate No: 7892
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (60)
Votes (27)

 

FemaleGamer

Pro

No nation devoted to individual liberty should force women back to the days of back-alley abortions. No women should have to bear a child against thier will. Free-will. That's what I stand for. No, no. That would be terrible, un-ethical and generally wrong. Women with free-will? God-forbid!

The fact is that women will always still desire to have an abortion, which some may follow through with. This will never end abortion. You have no control over that.

It is estimated near 1 million women saught for illegal abortions each year before Roe Vs Wade. Thats atleast 1 million babies. End of abortion? I think not! Thousands died, tens of thousands mutilated, forced to behave as if they were criminals.

A law making abortion illegal would make a law stating that all fetus' are superior to women.

Apparently women aren't as important to you as fetus' are. Good thing women don't have feelings, or you would be in trouble!

If the government can decide if the women gives birth or not, when will they stop?

Outlaw abortion, and more children, will bear children. 40% of all 14 year old women will become pregnant before they turn 20. Do you want this happening to people you care about?

More children is more UNWANTED children, leaving millions hurt, alone and abused.

So you say you are pro-life. Is life when a women is lieing face down in a alley dead from an illegal abortion? Is that respect for life?
Let's just return to the days when women had to cover thier faces or even had to wear skirts insted of pants. Last time I checked, womens bodies were not public property.

Keep your roasries off my ovaries.

That is all.
Xie-Xijivuli

Con

Thanks to FemaleGamer for this wonderful debate. I hope to see the outcome.

I shall start with my opponent's points and then add some of my own. (NOTE: I will not asses the video; it just reiterates what my opponent says in her argument.)

====
No nation devoted to individual liberty should force women back to the days of back-alley abortions.
====
Definition of force::: binding power, as of a contract (2) strength or power exerted upon an object; physical coercion; violence. [Source: 1]

By outlawing abortion, you do not "force" people to have back alley abortions. If you were forced to have an abortion in a back alley, that would translate into someone holding you down whilst giving you an abortion in an alley. Abortions are always a choice for people to have -- I think, though, that the choice is wrong. I want to make sure the choice is for life.

====
No women should have to bear a child against thier will. Free-will. That's what I stand for. No, no. That would be terrible, un-ethical and generally wrong. Women with free-will? God-forbid!
====

Let me show some facts:

1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (ex. the child is unwanted or inconvenient). [2]

This means most make a choice to have sex, and most just plain don't want the baby. There are few victims here -- other than the fetuses.

What about when the condom doesn't work? Well, when used in the proper way consistently, condoms are around 98% effective. [3] So, we can conclude that most abortions aren't due to failure of a condom.

====
The fact is that women will always still desire to have an abortion, which some may follow through with. This will never end abortion. You have no control over that.
====

You are very correct. I will never have control over what people do. However, it is THEIR choice, FemaleGamer, and if they choose to make an illegal and stupid one, so be it.

====
It is estimated near 1 million women saught for illegal abortions each year before Roe Vs Wade. Thats atleast 1 million babies. End of abortion? I think not! Thousands died, tens of thousands mutilated, forced to behave as if they were criminals.
====

1 million before Roe v Wade... and 42 million a YEAR after Roe v Wade. Once again, I cannot stress enough on how it is the mother's choice to have an illegal abortion -- if she decides to do something that she knows is illegal, she must realize the consequences. You are also forgetting the one million dead babies before Roe v Wade . The women weren't the victims in all cases, the fetuses were.

====
A law making abortion illegal would make a law stating that all fetus' are superior to women .Apparently women aren't as important to you as fetus' are. Good thing women don't have feelings, or you would be in trouble!
====

Not at all! I seek to make sure fetuses and women are /equal/. All people are equal, and the fetus is no exception. Women have feelings, and so do fetuses. I want to protect them both with equality to live.

====
If the government can decide if the women gives birth or not, when will they stop?
====

If person decides on the life of a baby without consequence, when will they stop?

//Outlaw abortion, and more children, will bear children. 40% of all 14 year old women will become pregnant before they turn 20. Do you want this happening to people you care about?//

The teenagers, like myself (W00T! 13!), make stupid choices. At the schools here, we receive extensive education regarding sex for children. The people who have sex are most often, in my school, the ones who blow off authority and frequently get detentions for rude behavior.

Now, this is not to say that these people are any less, but that their irresponsibility cannot be taken out on the baby.

====
More children is more UNWANTED children, leaving millions hurt, alone and abused.
====

Unwanted ≠ Kill.
That poor man on the side of the highway, with no family or home, is unwanted.
So kill him.

That abused child is lonely and afraid.
So rip out his brains.

That old man, with no family left and no one's care, is unwanted.
So bleed him to death.

NO.

[I have already assessed the following paragraph above.

Thank you for your time, and I hope we can keep this wonderful debate going.

Sources:
[1] http://dictionary.reference.com...
[2]http://www.abortionno.org...
[3] http://www.teenhelp.com... (the site lists more sources here)
Debate Round No. 1
FemaleGamer

Pro

"Definition of force::: binding power, as of a contract (2) strength or power exerted upon an object; physical coercion; violence. [Source: 1]

By outlawing abortion, you do not "force" people to have back alley abortions. If you were forced to have an abortion in a back alley, that would translate into someone holding you down whilst giving you an abortion in an alley. Abortions are always a choice for people to have -- I think, though, that the choice is wrong. I want to make sure the choice is for life."

But you are being forced to either A- Make a dangerous and unwise decision or B- go through extremely painful childbirth. Which one do you choose Xie? No thanks! I get to choose for you!

Let me show some facts:

"1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (ex. the child is unwanted or inconvenient). [2]

This means most make a choice to have sex, and most just plain don't want the baby. There are few victims here -- other than the fetuses.

What about when the condom doesn't work? Well, when used in the proper way consistently, condoms are around 98% effective. [3] So, we can conclude that most abortions aren't due to failure of a condom."

I'm sorry but that is simply, not true. 10 in every 100 women are impregnated from failure of a condom. [http://www.catholiceducation.org...] Even sergical presedures fail. Thats a very, very small chance, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. They just "dont want it" they are unfit for it. Maybe, financially, mentally or physically. -Just because there aren't many rape-related abortions, doesn't mean they don't exist.-

"You are very correct. I will never have control over what people do. However, it is THEIR choice, FemaleGamer, and if they choose to make an illegal and stupid one, so be it."

You don't want women to make the safest choice? The one for her health?

"1 million before Roe v Wade... and 42 million a YEAR after Roe v Wade. Once again, I cannot stress enough on how it is the mother's choice to have an illegal abortion -- if she decides to do something that she knows is illegal, she must realize the consequences. You are also forgetting the one million dead babies before Roe v Wade . The women weren't the victims in all cases, the fetuses were."

Right, so as long as your fetus' are protected, you don't give a crap about women or thier health. "dead babies" actually, dead lumps of unwanted molds of babies. It sounds pretty inhumane, yes it does. But 'not caring' about women is all you have expressed this argument.

"Not at all! I seek to make sure fetuses and women are /equal/. All people are equal, and the fetus is no exception. Women have feelings, and so do fetuses. I want to protect them both with equality to live."

I really hope "big guy up stairs" recognizes that, or its hell for you. It honestly, doesn't look like you give any care in the world to women. Or atleast to our privacy. Privacy and the right to decide are the 2 most important things in my life, why don't you trust me with them?

"The teenagers, like myself (W00T! 13!), make stupid choices. At the schools here, we receive extensive education regarding sex for children. The people who have sex are most often, in my school, the ones who blow off authority and frequently get detentions for rude behavior."

1st of all... Noes you are older then me! 2nd of all.. We have those same programs and this year we even learned about protection. That does not mean pregnancies do not happen or will not. What a weird place you must live in, because the ones here are the christian girls that went to bible camp every summer and loved thier boyfriends to death.

"Unwanted ≠ Kill.
That poor man on the side of the highway, with no family or home, is unwanted.
So kill him.

That abused child is lonely and afraid.
So rip out his brains.

That old man, with no family left and no one's care, is unwanted.
So bleed him to death.

NO.

[I have already assessed the following paragraph above"

Actually, those people have friends, family and people who CARE. An unwanted child, is UNWANTED. Do you think it wants to live a life of pure poverty and pain?

"Hello, i'm tommy, my mommy wanted to abort me but the pro-lifers wouldn't let her. So now i'm stuck in this orphanage, unwanted and alone, waiting for someone to find me. Nobody knows I will actually sit here until I am 18 and eventually live on the streets with no home, no money and no car. I will hang myself in a motel of highway 80, but nobody will know about me until I start to smell."

How many unwanted children will YOU adopt?
Xie-Xijivuli

Con

====
But you are being forced to either A- Make a dangerous and unwise decision or B- go through extremely painful childbirth. Which one do you choose Xie? No thanks! I get to choose for you!
====

I realize childbirth is painful. You seem to forget, though, that abortion is as well. Have you ever given birth or had an abortion, Female? If not, you really are not in entitlement to make such statements. Regardless of how painful it is, it isn't death. I SEVERELY doubt it is as painful as having you skull crushed, or having your limbs torn off and bleeding to death.

====
I'm sorry but that is simply, not true. 10 in every 100 women are impregnated from failure of a condom.
====

Look at my source. At the bottom you'll see five other sources confirming my statements, one from Planned Parenthood itself. (They are not linked directly there -- I don't know why, but they should still be acessible.)

====
Even sergical presedures fail. Thats a very, very small chance, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. They just "dont want it" they are unfit for it. Maybe, financially, mentally or physically. -Just because there aren't many rape-related abortions, doesn't mean they don't exist.-
====

At most, abortion should be a way to take little girls who were raped and make them a bit better -- although, as I said before, this is not the case about 95% of the time. Therefore, I will go with the majority and assume (quite correctly) the majority of abortions are just selfish for their own good.

Financially unfit -- Adopt; don't have sex in the first place.

Mentally -- Adopt; don't have sex in the first place.

Physically -- C-section, adopt, don't have sex in the first place.

====
You don't want women to make the safest choice? The one for her health?
====

I want what is best for the general public -- fetuses AND women. You, on the other hand, only care about women.

====
Right, so as long as your fetus' are protected, you don't give a crap about women or thier health. "dead babies" actually, dead lumps of unwanted molds of babies. It sounds pretty inhumane, yes it does. But 'not caring' about women is all you have expressed this argument.
====

I give a lot of care on everyone's well-being ('cause I'm just that nice :D). In my mind, the fetus is the equal of the women and therefore one cannot kill the other.

[WHAT!? I'm OLDER than YOU? O_O]

====
2nd of all.. We have those same programs and this year we even learned about protection. That does not mean pregnancies do not happen or will not. What a weird place you must live in, because the ones here are the christian girls that went to bible camp every summer and loved thier boyfriends to death.
====

"These people honor Me with their lips but their hearts are far from Me; they worship Me in vain." -- Matt. 28:20

Anyways, it doesn't matter. The point is, unwanted pregnancies do not equal killing of a baby.

====
Actually, those people have friends, family and people who CARE.
====

I said, and I quote, "That old man, with no family left and no one's care, is unwanted. ... That poor man on the side of the highway, with no family or home, is unwanted." What do you mean there is a family?! I said there is NO family -- no one wants them.

====
[Assesing the last two paragraphs here] An unwanted child, is UNWANTED. Do you think it wants to live a life of pure poverty and pain? ...
====

How do you know they are miserable? There are THOUSANDS of successful adopted kids! I highly doubt that most want to die by the methods of abortion.

In conclusion:

Women are equal to men who are equal to fetuses. Thus, no one here has the right to kill the other.
Debate Round No. 2
FemaleGamer

Pro

"I realize childbirth is painful. You seem to forget, though, that abortion is as well. Have you ever given birth or had an abortion, Female? If not, you really are not in entitlement to make such statements. Regardless of how painful it is, it isn't death. I SEVERELY doubt it is as painful as having you skull crushed, or having your limbs torn off and bleeding to death."

No, I have not given birth to a child. But I have the potential to. You,on the other hand, do not. I have heard that childbirth feels like you are being ripped apart through your vagina on up. We could debate for hours if this is worse or better then having your skull crushed, because neither of us know that.

"Look at my source. At the bottom you'll see five other sources confirming my statements, one from Planned Parenthood itself. (They are not linked directly there -- I don't know why, but they should still be acessible.)"

Well mine is from Catholic Education.org I should have known better then to trust a church. Woe is me.

"At most, abortion should be a way to take little girls who were raped and make them a bit better -- although, as I said before, this is not the case about 95% of the time. Therefore, I will go with the majority and assume (quite correctly) the majority of abortions are just selfish for their own good."

Just because that small 5% isn't the majority you choose to ignore them? It doesn't matter, there is only 5%, I don't care.

"Financially unfit -- Adopt; don't have sex in the first place.

Mentally -- Adopt; don't have sex in the first place.

Physically -- C-section, adopt, don't have sex in the first place."

Thats called abstinence. That is a whole different debate. Also, how do you know the women has the money/healthcare to pay for a C-section? The rich go get safe precedures, the poor go to back alley ways with a coathanger. Safety First!

"WHAT!? I'm OLDER than YOU? O_O"

I'm 12 1/2. Im flattered you thaught I was older. :P

"I said, and I quote, "That old man, with no family left and no one's care, is unwanted. ... That poor man on the side of the highway, with no family or home, is unwanted." What do you mean there is a family?! I said there is NO family -- no one wants them."

The old man has people around him. If you hear on the news a 91 year old man stabbed to death on the highway, do you get the slightest bit upset? No, no, nobody cares.

No one has the right to kill, but does one have the right to privacy?
Xie-Xijivuli

Con

====
No, I have not given birth to a child. But I have the potential to. You,on the other hand, do not. I have heard that childbirth feels like you are being ripped apart through your vagina on up. We could debate for hours if this is worse or better then having your skull crushed, because neither of us know that.
====

None of us are in a position to say how much childbirth hurts. I have had to have stitches in my head, though, and that hurt like crazy. I can imagine my skull getting crushed would be worse. I have also broken 3 bones; I knwo how much it hurts to have things disembodied. I can tell you it isn't fun.

That being said, I think it is safe to say that the latter two are the most painful, especially with today's modern painkillers. However, pain is not a function of ethics. No matter how much the pain, "... a person is a person, no matter how small."

You may not have the potential to, FemaleGamer. You could be barren for all we know. I could break out in pink spots right now (though that would seriously clash with my clothes.)

====
Just because that small 5% isn't the majority you choose to ignore them? It doesn't matter, there is only 5%, I don't care
====

Just like the system of our government, I will choose to help thje vast majority over the minority. Even still, you choose to help the majority of people who are morraly corrupt -- prostitutes, etc. Then there are those who just don't care about the baby, and I am always opposed to them.

====
Also, how do you know the women has the money/healthcare to pay for a C-section? The rich go get safe precedures, the poor go to back alley ways with a coathanger. Safety First!
====

I do not know wether or not they can afford them. Like I said before, though, only about 6% of abortions are due to the health of the mother. However, if you look at the sites I listed above, it shows the age and income of people who have abortions.

====
The old man has people around him. If you hear on the news a 91 year old man stabbed to death on the highway, do you get the slightest bit upset? No, no, nobody cares.
====

Just like your Timmy, know one would notice until he smells.

====
No one has the right to kill, but does one have the right to privacy?
====

You just said no one has the right to kill, yet you still support abortion? This is not about privacy, this is abotu the freedom to live. The RIGHT to live, and the inability to kill.

Thank you.
Debate Round No. 3
60 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by yayawhatever 6 years ago
yayawhatever
yeahyeah21 says: according to one dictionary, abortion is murder.

I say: I'd love to know which dictionary that is and what year is was published

xie says: I seek to make sure fetuses and women are /equal/. All people are equal, and the fetus is no exception. Women have feelings, and so do fetuses.

I say: fetuses are not equal to women. Women dont need to leech off fetuses to survive.
I'm curious how early in the pregnancy u believe fetuses have feelings
Posted by yeahyeah21 6 years ago
yeahyeah21
It's interesting to find that according to one dictionary, abortion is murder.

Abortion (according to ONE dictionary) is a "fatally premature expulsion".

Fatal (according to same dict.) is to "cause death or capable of causing death".

Kill (according to same dict.) is "to cause death".

If abortion is to the word fatal as fatal is to the word kill, then is the word kill not under the definition of abortion? What do you think?
Posted by Xie-Xijivuli 7 years ago
Xie-Xijivuli
Wow. A lot of people turned up for this.
Posted by fisher 7 years ago
fisher
"If you have never been born you cannot exist." I am referring to being a person. Not literally not existing. As the "you" means "you", which you can picture yourself as a character because you have lived. You are not a fetus are you? When someone is not able to survive on their own you are allowed to take them off life support and it is not murder. Whats the difference. I would never ever want my gf to have an abortion. I am against it but if she wants to I will respect her choice. I have no attachment to this fetus because it has not been born yet. It is growing inside of her, another life and if she is willing to get rid of that, I am sure she thinks she has good enough reasons and I respect that choice. And feel she should be the only one making that decision.
Posted by dtclark2188 7 years ago
dtclark2188
I think they need to understand each other before they start a debate. Fisher is arguing, that a human has never been a person before they are born. WAA is arguing that a fetus is a human. These are two very different points, and must be resolved before a constructive debate can occur.
Posted by Xie-Xijivuli 7 years ago
Xie-Xijivuli
I think you two need to challenge each other to a debate.
Posted by WhiteAfricanAmerican 7 years ago
WhiteAfricanAmerican
"Not allowing a person free will to make their own choices is like communism, or Hitler or how ever you want to relate it. "

Considering that both those examples exterminated 'inconvenient lives', I can draw just as many comparisons between your positions and that of Nazism or Communism

"I think most of us know by now there is not a God that is gunna judge us when we die, so if a child/another person that your going to have to look after will be an inconvenience then why not terminate the pregnancy before it turns into a person."

So how do you know that murder is wrong?
Posted by WhiteAfricanAmerican 7 years ago
WhiteAfricanAmerican
'I never said a fetus didn't exist.'

Uh, yeah, you did:

"No but you need to be born in order to be one. If you have never been born you cannot exist. Can you?"

"If they are still in the womb they have no memory, no personality, no characteristics in their mind to make them a person. There is no way that a fetus has more of a right and more control over the mother who is a person and has a mind of her own. If a baby is born and you kill it that's murder. You killed a person. If you get an abortion your killing a zygote. A cell. And thousands maybe millions of cells are being killed on you from scratching or typing, or anything really."

So, besides having a unique DNA, having brain activity, being able to respond to external stimulus, having a unique finger print, having a heart beat, needing nutrition and oxygen to survive.....despite all these things, in your world, it's not human, it's not alive, it doesn't exist until it's out in the womb.

Ok then......
Posted by fisher 7 years ago
fisher
Not allowing a person free will to make their own choices is like communism, or Hitler or how ever you want to relate it. I think most of us know by now there is not a God that is gunna judge us when we die, so if a child/another person that your going to have to look after will be an inconvenience then why not terminate the pregnancy before it turns into a person.
Posted by fisher 7 years ago
fisher
I never said a fetus didn't exist. You cannot be a person if you have not been born yet is all I am stating. There is not one person living that has not been born through a c section or an actual birth. If they are still in the womb they have no memory, no personality, no characteristics in their mind to make them a person. There is no way that a fetus has more of a right and more control over the mother who is a person and has a mind of her own. If a baby is born and you kill it that's murder. You killed a person. If you get an abortion your killing a zygote. A cell. And thousands maybe millions of cells are being killed on you from scratching or typing, or anything really.
27 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
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