The Instigator
MisterNioMan
Con (against)
Losing
2 Points
The Contender
Rasputin45
Pro (for)
Winning
3 Points

Abortion

Do you like this debate?NoYes+2
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Rasputin45
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 2/15/2014 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 629 times Debate No: 45998
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (3)
Votes (1)

 

MisterNioMan

Con

I don't know how Pro-Choice supporters justify Abortion. Do you not think about the child or not care? I almost broke into tears of a story on a baby being aborted that grabbed the surgeons hands during the abortion. Looking at pictures, they abort babies no bigger than my thumb. What's the difference from killing a baby that already came out of the womb?

http://www.jillstanek.com...
Rasputin45

Pro

This is a very touchy matter, which makes it extremely hard to pick a side. Yet, I will take the side of Pro for this debate. My first point is that the fetus has no conscience or sentience. It's brain is too undeveloped if it has developed the brain at all, for the just-fertilized egg is just a combination of two cells. If it is so evil to eliminate single-celled organisms, then why do we take antibiotics; for health reasons. Granted that, not all abortions are done for health purposes, but how many abortions do you know are done out of pure hatred for the child...um fetus. This leads me to the second point that the abortion is never done (or otherwise shouldn't be done) without reason. If the woman is unintentionally pregnant, and the father isn't willing to support, then for the sake of the child, there could be the abortion. If it was a teen pregnancy, then it's likely that it could ruin her education for the maternity takes up so much time, and then the teen has to look after a child, with a struggled education without support from a father; it wouldn't be fair on the child. We call ourselves pro-choice because we respect the woman's' right to choose what happens to her own body, the child without a conscience and sentience cannot make the choice itself. My last point is that we, the human race, seem to be perfectly happy with war, but not so much with torture. We agreed to the geneva conventions in 1949 to prevent war crimes. We are ok with Euthanasia (which itself is a touchy subject in itself) because it excuses the pain the terminal patient would have gone through. The geneva convention and euthanasia are in place because we want to reduce the pain others go through. Abortion is ok, because the fetus isn't a conscience human and it is to remove suffering of the life the child would go through.
Debate Round No. 1
MisterNioMan

Con

One thing that I can't stand is the media, you never hear anything to with God anymore. Its all about promoting stuff that has been looked down upon for centuries such as abortion. If a teenager gets pregnant by a birth control mistake, she chose to engage in sexual activities, not the baby. If she is still in school she shouldn't even have sex on her mind. She should be worried about passing school. That baby, at five weeks old already has a heart beat that is beating twice as fast as the mothers because it's heart is smaller then the tip of a pen, it has to pump the blood fast to go all threw it's body. If a girl gets raped, one of the lowest form of evil, then put the child up for adoption and abortions done because of rape only cause 1% of abortions committed. A prime example of abortions done of evil ,not from the parent but doctor, is the the Dr. Kermit Gosnell case. He killed babies that were already out of the womb ,exactly what people today are saying is it's OK to murder just as long as the mom's OK with it. I shudder to think what the next generation will do to unwanted "fetuses". Another evil, most inhumane story I ever read, a girl was at a bar and gave birth in the bathroom. Then suffocated the baby and threw it in the toilet to go finish watching the game. If that doesn't say "Theirs no hope for America" I don't want to hear it. Suffocation is one of the worst ways to die. I bet this girl did it because if you can kill a baby in a clinic why not in a bathroom? And how dare you say we are happy with war! My father was a marine, now retired, and would tell me stories of how his friend would die in front of him and nothing he could do but defend the country. If a count is going to attack us their is not much we can do but defend ourselves. If Korea launches missiles at us and we shoot them down, we have to attack to defend America. What can we do, watch and become a communist country?
Rasputin45

Pro

"One thing that I can't stand is the media, you never hear anything to with God anymore."
This is because the world is less religion orientated, but I must ask: What did this point have to do with this argument!"

"Its all about promoting stuff that has been looked down upon for centuries such as abortion."
and freedom of speech, women's rights and individualism. I don't see what so bad about this in hindsight.

"If a teenager gets pregnant by a birth control mistake, she chose to engage in sexual activities, not the baby."
Baby, according to wikipedia, is a human offspring from birth to 12 months. A fetus, is not a baby. It is the teenager's choice, not the fetus's, I agree but by all means that says that it is the woman's responsibility, the woman's choice to have an abortion or not.

" If she is still in school she shouldn't even have sex on her mind. She should be worried about passing school." to this I say, "to err is human, to forgive is divine." Humans are, by nature, idiots but does that mean we should punish their idiocy. The teenager has a burden of responsibility now which means that there is less likely chance of succession in school, like I said in round one. I also say, that teenagers have sexual hormones raging around their body, and whether it's curiosity or lust, inevitably some will have sex, irresponsibly I might add.

You mention that the FETUS at five months has a fast beating heart, yet you do not say how this equates to conscience, sentience or anything that might strengthen your argument. You then proceed to talk incomprehensibly but I got the gist.

"A prime example of abortions done of evil ,not from the parent but doctor, is the the Dr. Kermit Gosnell case. He killed babies that were already out of the womb ,exactly what people today are saying is it's OK to murder just as long as the mom's OK with it."
I didn't specify how Dr Kermit Gosnell Killed those babies, but if they were born then killed, not aborted, then it is infanticide not abortion. I read up on the case. According to wikipedia, he was charged with malpractice, letting a patient die, preforming Illegal abortions and killing 7 born babies. It appears that this doctor was inept and possibly sadistic and I will give it to you, but only because of the ultra-specific context, otherwise it doesn't prove that all abortion is 'Evil'; remember all those shades of grey(hmm...sounds like a book.)

The case of the baby in the bathroom was not abortion, it was straight up infanticide, and not merciful in anyway and cannot be equated to all abortion if at all. You also use the Slippery slope fallacy, " I bet this girl did it because if you can kill a baby in a clinic why not in a bathroom?" You say that if we allow legal abortion by professional doctors, than people will think it ok to straight up choke children to death. The woman was clearly not fit to have children at all and should have gotten a legal abortion.

Then you sort of go insane..."And how dare you say we are happy with war! My father was a marine, now retired, and would tell me stories of how his friend would die in front of him and nothing he could do but defend the country. If a count is going to attack us their is not much we can do but defend ourselves. If Korea launches missiles at us and we shoot them down, we have to attack to defend America. What can we do, watch and become a communist country?"
Well first, when I said 'we are perfectly happy of war' I should have been specific. I meant to say 'Our society is ok with war' Either way, I wasn't trying to justify war; I was simply trying to make a point with the geneva conventions. Lastly, why did a debate on abortion escalate to Communism?
Debate Round No. 2
MisterNioMan

Con

Being a Catholic and Republican, that's where I get most my political views especially my view of abortion and the media, for as long as I can remember, has always gone against my views, politically and religiously. I don't like bringing religion to arguments but that's what this is about to me. The definition of baby is different on a lot of sites. Dictionary.com defines it as many examples
1.an infant or very young child.
2.a newborn or very young animal.
3.the youngest member of a family, group, etc.
4.an immature or childish person.
5.a human fetus.
It depends on the site you look it up on. Could you kill a "fetus" that has a heart, face, organs and all things necessary for life, exactly the same as a baby out of the womb? And if you would say yes, don't answer it in your next argument.
Yes to err is human and to forgive is divine but humans aren't punished at all. We have all sorts of electronics that spoil us and makes us think anything is okay until the damage is to far done.
In my eyes, infanticide and abortion are the same thing. Abortion is the killing off a baby inside the womb. The only difference between the girl killing her baby and abortion is that she wasn't a doctor and it was done in a bathroom. You tell me that baby isn't legally a baby until the second it come out of the womb? That's impossible, theirs no way for that babies heart to start beating, for it's blood to start flowing coming out of the uterus. Their are videos of babies in the womb, being dismembered and trying to get away from suffering. I honestly doubt that's how how they say the baby will react. I watched a video to wear a girl went undercover as a pregnant mom to see what happens in an abortion clinic and what they tell you. I have a bunch of stories of people going to be a nurse during an abortion and quit working at the clinic because of watching what they do. You don't need a PHD to tell if something is alive or not.
And yes you were saying we are happy with war. I got mad because you going off and insulting my father's work. He was gone for 3 years of my life stationed and fighting for our country and saying we are OK with it. I doubt any one is OK with war but can we control others that want war? No, so we defend ourselves. Me bringing up communism was one sentence. I doubt that means this third part of the argument is all about communism. Learn the difference between changing the conversation and stating an example. You brought up euthanasia as an example. Does that mean the conversation was about euthanasia?
Rasputin45

Pro

"It depends on the site you look it up on. Could you kill a "fetus" that has a heart, face, organs and all things necessary for life, exactly the same as a baby out of the womb?" Depends. I myself don't desire to be an abortion doctor, but your description removes some important details in my opinion. If the fetus was under 24 weeks or is not biologically able to survive outside the womb, then the abortion would be ok. I'd just like to make the point that from your arguments this time around, you seem to think that a fertilized egg cell is a baby; please answer in the comments and straighten that out.

"Yes to err is human and to forgive is divine but humans aren't punished at all. We have all sorts of electronics that spoil us and makes us think anything is okay until the damage is to far done."
Yes let's blame our technology and not the irresponsibility of the adult's in our lives whose responsibility was to educate us on the real world. I was making a point that stupid mistakes are inevitable but should we punish them for that; I made it really clear so I assume you do think so. I can't respond because you have a completely different philosophy here; Let's continue

"In my eyes, infanticide and abortion are the same thing."
Well, in my last arguments I thought I made a very clear distinction. Let me reiterate: The abortion we are discussing is a legal termination of an undeveloped fetus under the age of 24 weeks. Infanticide is murder of a born infant. Yes we could be talking about all abortion, including illegal but I don't support illegal abortion, we have a compromise to keep things humane, it's just some people don't like compromise.

"That's impossible, theirs no way for that babies heart to start beating, for it's blood to start flowing coming out of the uterus."
Umm...

"And yes you were saying we are happy with war. I got mad because you going off and insulting my father's work. He was gone for 3 years of my life stationed and fighting for our country and saying we are OK with it. I doubt any one is OK with war but can we control others that want war? No, so we defend ourselves. Me bringing up communism was one sentence. I doubt that means this third part of the argument is all about communism. Learn the difference between changing the conversation and stating an example."
Well, even if I did say I was happy with war, I said in the next arguments that that is not what I meant. You seem to ramble again on a topic which hasn't anything to do with the debate at hand. Me bringing up war was one sentence as well, I just harped on it because when you said a sentence about communism, and when you that entire paragraph on war, it didn't support you argument or if it did you forgot to link them together.

As for the definition of baby, well, we seem to be at a stalemate on that.

In conclusion, abortion is ok because it is a medical procedure, which is for the humane interest of both parties, and it can only take place under 24 weeks. People are stupid and our technological advances can rectify our stupidity.
Debate Round No. 3
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Rasputin45 2 years ago
Rasputin45
For the sake of sanity, Let's keep this debate on topic. PLEASE!
Posted by Rasputin45 2 years ago
Rasputin45
Out of all the Pro-Lifers, some actually have their heart in the right place e.g I think my opponent. It's the Conservative Christian who has no empathy for what they are saying, and are just following the leader.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by black_squirrel 2 years ago
black_squirrel
MisterNioManRasputin45Tied
Agreed with before the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Agreed with after the debate:-Vote Checkmark-0 points
Who had better conduct:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Had better spelling and grammar:--Vote Checkmark1 point
Made more convincing arguments:-Vote Checkmark-3 points
Used the most reliable sources:Vote Checkmark--2 points
Total points awarded:23 
Reasons for voting decision: CON does not really address PRO's argument that the brain of a fetus/zygote is too underdeveloped to have conscience. But I gave sources to Con, because CON had at least some sources.