The Instigator
Kelisitaan
Pro (for)
The Contender
GrimlyF
Con (against)

Abortion

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Debate Round Forfeited
GrimlyF has forfeited round #4.
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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 12/27/2016 Category: Politics
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 1,298 times Debate No: 98469
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (38)
Votes (0)

 

Kelisitaan

Pro

A woman has the right to do what she wants with her body. Therefore, abortion is accepted.

Rules: No new arguments in R4. Forfeiting a round=loss
GrimlyF

Con

I thank PRO for this debate opportunity.
I will attempt to prove that abortion is not simply about freedom of choice.

As this is PRO's debate I give her the floor to begin the arguments.
Debate Round No. 1
Kelisitaan

Pro

Abortion is accepted because a woman has the right to choose what she wants to do with her body.

The fetus needs the body of the mother to survive. If human A needs a part of human B to survive, e.g. a kidney transplant, it is entirely up to human B whether or not he wants to give human A a kidney. Even if human B is dying and his kidneys will rot with him, he decides what to do with his own body. Even if human A's life is at stake and human B's life is already over, with rotting kidney's, it's still human B's right to choose what to do with his dead body.

Is this considered murder? No, of course it's not. Is it a little douchey? Perhaps. Is it acceptable? Yes, a person has the right to do whatever he wants with his body.

If the fetus can survive on its own, then abortion is more of an up in the air debate. However, if the fetus needs the mother's body (which it does), abortion comes down to the simple principal of a woman has the right to choose what she wants to do with her body.

By letting the fetus control a woman's body, you are granting a fetus rights to someone else's body. No one has rights to anyone's body but that person. Period

A fetus needs a mother's body to survive. If the mother does not want to let the fetus use her body, it doesn't have to. The fetus is a part of a parasitic relationship; although its body is affected, it's using the body of the mother to survive.
GrimlyF

Con

Your point about organ donation is immaterial as donation is by choice.

We are discussing killing an unborn baby. I write baby because calling it a foetus or embryo does not change what is. If the baby can survive outside the womb it is a living, breathing, sighted, thinking baby. Only the actual birth changes its status into an official citizen.

A foetus does not " control " a women, her own brain does that. The various nutrients and hormones the baby needs come from you not the child. Morning sickness, mood swings etc are the result of pregnancy and no direct action of the baby.

Parasitic? It is symbiotic in that it is helping keep the mother healthy and active. How many women are told that pregnancy gives them a " healthy glow "? This is because your blood is cleansed as it circulates giving you clearer skin,increased oxygen and nutrients to your muscles etc.

The babies existence is because of YOUR mistake. take responsibility for that, at least.
Debate Round No. 2
Kelisitaan

Pro

Exactly, donating a kidney is a choice. Giving water to a man dying of thirst is a choice. Letting a fetus use your body to survive is also a choice.

A fetus CANNOT survive out of the womb for any significant time period. A fetus is alive, yes, but it is certainly not a baby. You are making the false analogy that just because something is alive that it is the same thing as a baby.

Is an ant a baby? It lives and breathes. What about bacteria? It's alive too.

A fetus has the potential to become a baby, but it is not a baby. Is a baby girl a teenage girl? A baby girl has the potential to become a teenage girl.

It does not help keep the mother healthy and active. I'm sure there are a couple of benefits of being pregnant, but to say that pregnancy keeps someone healthy is simply false. By your logic, pregnancy keeps someone unhealthy because of morning sickness and feeling like crap all of the time. How is that healthy?

As for taking responsibility, they are. Do you not think abortion is damaging to a mother's conscious and psyche? Of course it is. Abortion simply adjusts the "punishment" to something reasonable.

If you steal a candy bar, for example, should you be punished with an unwanted kid for 18 years of your life? No, of course not. Stealing a candy bar is about the same level of mistake as having unprotected sex one time or screwing up your birth control. In fact, I'd argue that it's a bigger mistake, but that would be another debate.

Moreover, you certainly haven't considered any of the costs of forcing lots of mothers to have kids they don't want. We already have 100k orphans in the USA alone who aren't adopted. https://showhope.org...

Imagine how many orphans we would have if we forced every woman to have her baby? Probably over 1 million. Did you ever consider the cost that these unwanted babies would have?
GrimlyF

Con

Abortion is up in the air if its full term? Let's see if we can bring it down to earth. The federal government puts no limit on age for abortion and reading your posts you don't care either way.
What are the various ways of ending a pregnancy? www.prolife.com/abortion facts........americanpregnancy.org/unplanned pregnancy/abortions. These sites and others deal with procedures for abortion. I give a brief synopsis.
Dilation and evacuation.
A vacuum device is used to tear the foetus apart and suck out the remains. This is for up to 16wk old foetuses.
Dilation and Curettage.
A sharp curved knife is used to scrape the uterus and dismember the foetus. Up to 24wks.

I will now touch on Pain. Including the above and below procedures I have found only one site that even mentioned the pain endured by the foetus.
www.doctorsonfetalpain.com/fetalpaintheevidence.......www.lifenews.com/studiesonfetalpain.
I have read the sites on fetal pain but they rarely agree. Utah has passed a law giving pain relief to 20wks foetuses at abortion.
Chemical.
Mifepristone blocks progesterone and the foetus starves to death.
D+X.
Blunt nosed scissors punch into the skull and brains sucked out. 30wks.
Saline.
Foetus dies from salt poisoning,dehydration,brain hemorrhage and convulsions. Full term.
D+E.
Foetus forcibly dismembered and may have skull crushed for removal. Full term.

As I wrote none of the sites I read said anything about pain relief except the one on Utah.

We wouldn't treat an animal the way we treat our unborn babes. In my next entry I will mention pain again.

The thoughtless actions of women should not make abortion an easy choice. The law should make it harder than it is to obtain one.
Debate Round No. 3
Kelisitaan

Pro

Instead of refuting any of my points, all con has done was indicate that he wasn't pleased with the "time limit" or "how abortions were done." Neither of these help con's causes; instead of arguing whether or not abortion should be permitted, he instead argues that it's "done improperly" e.g. with too much pain, or that it's "done on a fetus who is too old."

Nowhere in my argument did I say or imply that I was "okay" with how abortion was done; it's irrelevant to the debate. If you want to have a debate on HOW to "humanely" do an abortion, that would be the place for it.

I have already made my points multiple times, whereas con has been unable to rebut any of them effectively, yet i have rebutted all of his multiple times. Regardless of your position on abortion, you should be voting on who DEBATED the subject better, and that was clearly me.

Thank you for your time Grimley and good luck
This round has not been posted yet.
Debate Round No. 4
38 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by cwt002 1 year ago
cwt002
Right, we went through this already. You believe that science is an ignorant profiler.
Posted by Kelisitaan 1 year ago
Kelisitaan
Yep, so why have you ignored all the questions? Here they are again for you:

And if the fetus is human, why can't the mom use the carpool lane? Why can't she buy 2 items during a "1 per customer" sale?

In other words, the only people who consider a fetus "human" are ignorant prolifers.
Posted by cwt002 1 year ago
cwt002
#destroyed
Posted by cwt002 1 year ago
cwt002
So what I am saying in all of this is simple. I am not taking just someone else's word but their years of research, knowledge and published articles. Not sure if you know what is entailed in publishing an article as a professor but it is not a blog where you are obviously getting your sources and ideas from.

It appears that you only can say your ideas are facts based because you think they are right. I have not seen any science behind your argument.
Posted by Kelisitaan 1 year ago
Kelisitaan
No one claimed it was "part of a human;" it's a different species all together. Just like a catterpiller and a butterfly. Again, you're taking the word of someone who agrees with you as gospel, yet ignoring all of my questions and facts.
Posted by cwt002 1 year ago
cwt002
Forgot to put in the last comment I summarized a quote from Dr. Irving from Princeton and her paper from the International Journal of Sociology and Social Policy. Basically, to reiterate "after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. This no longer a matter of opinion, it is plain experimental evidence."

Also, Robert P. George a McCormick Professor of Jurisprudence, Director at Princeton, and a member of the U.S/ President's Council on Bioethics and the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization World Commission said these things:
-The human embryo is the same individual as the human organism at subsequent stages of development."
-There is only a difference in degree of maturation, not in kind, between any of the stages from embryo, to fetus, infant and so on
-It is important to note that embryological evidence shows that the human embryo is a whole, although obviously immature, human being; it is not a mere part."

Then Dr. Condic who is Professor of Neurobiology and Pediatrics, Director of Human Embryology and of Human Neuroanatomy said:
-The conclusion that human life begins at sperm-egg fusion is uncontested, objective, based on the universally accepted and based on ample scientific evidence (thousands of independent, peer-reviewed publications).

Professor Micheline Matthews-Roth, "It is incorrect to say that biological data cannot be decisive. It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception."

Sorry, this is long but if my previous comments are your standard of ignorance I feel very complimented. I have argued these facts and you referred to me as ignorant, an ignorant profiler..... but my comments have been similar to these and based on science. I have many other comments, quotes, research, and proof but just decided put these in.
Posted by Kelisitaan 1 year ago
Kelisitaan
cwt002, i've given you MULTIPLE examples of things which become other things 100% of the time YET are not the same thing. Using this to justify a fetus being a human is nonsense logic. Is a catterpiller a butterfly?
Posted by GrimlyF 1 year ago
GrimlyF
In defence of my referring to the embryo/foetus as a " baby " it is perfectly acceptable. It is also a truth that you must admit to. When a friend says she is pregnant do you ask " when will the foetus leave the womb?" no you don't do you?. You say " when will the BABY be born " meaning when will the BABY leave the womb. You have already accepted that it is a baby not a " parasite,kidney,teenager,ant larva or candy bar ".
" Hard cases " are abortions by reason of Rape or Incest and account for less than 1% of abortions. Federal law states that an abortion needed to save the mother-to-be is illegal as the baby must be saved before the mother. Those angst-ridden TV programmes about mum or baby are fiction. There is no choice.
The latest ( 2011 ) figures for abortion in the U.S. are 1,060,000.
There have been over 53,000,000 abortions since 1973.
How many were the result of hubris,vanity or, like you, lack of humanity.
Posted by cwt002 1 year ago
cwt002
I guess science is an ignorant profiler.

Come on, most embryonic evidence shows that the human embryo is a whole, although obviously an immature human being, not something else. Really, let's look at the basics, after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being. This no longer a matter of opinion, it is plain experimental evidence. This is difficult to argue because you believe a fetus can be something other than a human, even though 100% of the time they become human. This is observed through a process of the scientific method. It is observed and repeated.
Posted by Kelisitaan 1 year ago
Kelisitaan
So if that's true, then how come we count age starting from the birth of the baby, and the fetus has an entirely separate age? If it were a human, wouldn't age be counted from the start of the fetus?

And if the fetus is human, why can't the mom use the carpool lane? Why can't she buy 2 items during a "1 per customer" sale?

In other words, the only people who consider a fetus "human" are ignorant prolifers.
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