The Instigator
Tryme22
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points
The Contender
FT
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points

Abortion

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
Tryme22
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/5/2018 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 weeks ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 243 times Debate No: 113532
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (4)
Votes (1)

 

Tryme22

Con

State your case. How could abortion ever even begin to be justifiable?
FT

Pro

Why should I care what happens to a fetus individually if I won't ever have to worry about becoming a fetus?
Debate Round No. 1
Tryme22

Con

What exactly do you mean by that? Are you referring to reincarnation or something of that sort? As for why you should care in general, it"s because that is a person, a completely defenseless human being being brutally murdered.
FT

Pro

Define the word "person" and "murder", and explain why I should care even if you call it or it is a "person" or "murder". Explain pragmatically how being murdered as an elderly (which I and you worry about becoming), for example is pragmatically equivalent to being "murdered" individually as a fetus (which I or you don't worry about becoming) as opposed to being "murdered" as a sperm or egg individually before they meet (which I or you don't worry about becoming) or being "murdered" as a fertilized chicken embryo, or being "murdered" as a tapeworm (which I or you, you guessed it, don't have to worry about becoming) which you pro lifers care so much about btw. And by becoming, I am talking how people age into being elderly.
Debate Round No. 2
Tryme22

Con

I meant person to murder to mean what they classically mean. Person as human being and murder, to take the life of. You should care because that is a part of this world, sadly, abortion , that is, and you live in it. It"s really quite awful that we even have to argue about whether or not it is wrong or right to murder someone. As for how it"s Equivalent, in what way is it not? It is taking away the life of a human being in both cases. I do not think we should Dispose of human sperm or egg, either, though, As we Do not and probably cannot understand it to the fullest in that sense. It is different, though, however than a fertilized chicken embryo or tapeworm as those are not human beings and, as we shouldn"t try to inflict pain onto an animal, it"s not the same; people always come first; tapeworms and chickens don"t have souls.
FT

Pro

Sloppy, Defining murder as "to take a life of" while simultaneously saying it isn't wrong to "take the life of" chickens or tapeworms, cause you know, they are life. Am I to also regard all human unfertilized eggs and sperm as human beings (and thus people) too? Cause they are apart of us and come from us like a fetus does.
Debate Round No. 3
Tryme22

Con

At the moment when a human sperm penetrates a human ovum, or egg, generally in the upper portion of the Fallopian Tube, a new entity comes into existence. "Zygote" is the name of the first cell formed at conception, the earliest developmental stage of the human embryo.
The zygote is composed of human DNA and other human molecules, so its nature is undeniably human and not some other species.
The DNA of that zygote is completely belonging to that being and that one, alone, different from any other human that has ever existed, including that of its mother (thus disproving the claim that what is involved in abortion is merely "a woman and her body").
It is also quite clear that the earliest human embryo is biologically alive. It fulfills the four criteria needed to establish biological life: metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction.
While a mere collection of human cells may carry on the activities of cellular life, it will not exhibit coordinated interactions directed towards a higher level of organization.
To those that say that, when in the womb, this being is not yet a person, that argument is completely unscientific and merely accounts for their political or "moral" views. We are either people or property.
61% of Americans say abortion should be illegal after the fetal heartbeat has begun, which occurs in the first month of pregnancy. 72% of Americans say abortion should be illegal after the first 3 months of pregnancy. 86% of Americans say abortion should be illegal after the first 6 months of pregnancy. Only 6% -17% of Americans believe abortion should be legal at any time, in all circumstances.
The modern "pro-choice" movement is desperate to protect the image of abortion as positive and pro-woman. Ironically, their biggest threat is from those they claim to champion: women. Abortion-rights proponents are devastated by the women of the Silent No More Awareness Campaign, for example, who stand with their "I regret my abortion" signs and by the powerful of Feminists for Life make the compelling argument that "women deserve better than abortion."
Pro-life men and women alike can point to the brave women coming forward in ever greater numbers to speak out about how abortion was not an act of empowerment but the result of abandonment, betrayal, and desperation, and how it has negatively affected their lives.
The website www.afterabortion.com established by a woman who had 5 abortions provides a place for women to help each other cope with the aftermath of their abortions. There are nearly 2.5 million posts. They tell stories of how they were coerced into aborting their children by boyfriends, husbands, friends, and family. They describe how abortion was far from being a choice. They speak of overwhelming guilt, nightmares, excessive drinking, drug abuse, promiscuity, an inability to form or maintain relationships, difficulty bonding with later children, and other ways in which they are suffering.

One of the cornerstone ideas of the animal rights movement is that there are no fundamental differences between humans and animals: humans are just animals, only more intelligent.
Humans emotions. Mammals, birds and some other animals have a set of six basic emotions listed by Ekman: anger, fear, disgust, joy, sadness and surprise. However, we humans are able to feel many other emotions that regulate our social behavior and the way we view the world: guilt, shame, pride, honor, awe, interest, envy, nostalgia, hope, despair, contempt and many others. While emotions like love and loyalty may be present in mammals that live in hierarchical societies, emotions like guilt, shame and their counterparts pride and honor seem to be uniquely human. There is much controversy these days on whether dogs feel guilt and shame, there is evidence that they do not, but they may also have acquired this emotion as a way to interact with humans.
Empathy and compassion, Episodic memory, and Theory of Mind.
Also, "cause", in the way that you were using it, is not a word; I believe you meant "because".
FT

Pro

So like I said earlier, no one that is not a fetus, including me, doesn't have to worry about becoming a fetus as opposed to becoming an elderly person like all people do, so why should I care about what happens to the fetus individually even if you or a group of people call it a "person" or "murdered brutally" when you abort the fetus?

Even if the fetus pragmatically falls in the realm of being a person and aborting a fetus was considered murder, is it really utilitarian to force pregnant people to give birth against there will? Giving birth I hear can not only bring a lot of pain and torture, but will in some cases kill you, so I wonder what levels of forced torture are acceptable to you if doing it for an hour or so meant maintaining a fetus through birth.

You are also gonna have to give me that evidence where other animals besides human don't possess nostalgia, hope , despair etc.
Debate Round No. 4
Tryme22

Con

What do you know if giving birth? You"ve never done it. Yes, it is painful, the most pain a person can withstand without passing out. Nowadays, though, in case you haven"t heard or been around for the last whenever, painkillers exist and there are other options, surgically. Also, if they didn"t want to have a baby, than they shouldn"t have had sex. And for those who were raped, that is apsoluty terrible and I can"t even begin to imagine what a terrible and scaring experience that must have been but they shouldn"t murder the child, they should give them up for adoption.
As for why you should car, I"ve already given you reasons and if those aren"t good enough for you then that"s pretty disgusting and I feel terrible for you. If you don"t care, why are you even here? Why did you click on this? What"s your point to- anything?
FT

Pro

Calling me disgusting and calling your reasons good enough doesn't make your reasons all that compelling. It is rather baffling you would care about matters such as an aborted fetus which doesn't affect you or me in the slightest unlike being forced to go through the stages of pregnancy and risk pain and death. And just to test your morals, answer this question for yourself for future debates. Under what levels of suffering to a person are acceptable to you as long as a fetus makes birth?
Debate Round No. 5
4 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 4 records.
Posted by Leaning 2 weeks ago
Leaning
FT, I'd appreciate it if you explained your argument to me. It really doesn't make much sense to me. Are you implying that a grown up since they would no longer turn into a child could kill one? I also think you're too focused on the utilitarianism aspect in the argument. As well as insisting on exact qualification of a person/human. Even in the forums with hundreds of posts no one seems to agree on that. I've heard that argument about sperm and eggs before and it still feels. Facile? to me. I really don't mean this in a negative way, but you come off as a disturbing psychopath in your argument.
Posted by Leaning 2 weeks ago
Leaning
What about Siamese twins?
Posted by Zakeishe 2 weeks ago
Zakeishe
The definition of murder is unlawful killing. I don't see anything unlawful about abortion.
Posted by missmedic 2 weeks ago
missmedic
Many people talk of "balancing" the rights of the woman with the fetus. But it is impossible for two beings in the same body to both enjoy rights. Women"s lives, health, and basic human rights depend on the availability of abortion, and those are the only factors necessary to justify abortion.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by dsjpk5 2 weeks ago
dsjpk5
Tryme22FTTied
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Total points awarded:30