The Instigator
harrytruman
Pro (for)
Losing
1 Points
The Contender
talmid
Con (against)
Winning
3 Points

Abraham was the first recorded pimp

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 1 vote the winner is...
talmid
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/26/2016 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 441 times Debate No: 85555
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (3)
Votes (1)

 

harrytruman

Pro

So, as Talmid (my opponent), and my mom recommended, I started to read my Torah, and I came across a few disturbing/funny/ironic verses, Genesis 12:10-20:
"Now there was a famine in the land, and Abram went down to Egypt to live there for a while because the famine was severe. 11 As he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, "I know what a beautiful woman you are. 12 When the Egyptians see you, they will say, "This is his wife." Then they will kill me but will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, so that I will be treated well for your sake and my life will be spared because of you."

14 When Abram came to Egypt, the Egyptians saw that Sarai was a very beautiful woman. 15 And when Pharaoh"s officials saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh, and she was taken into his palace. 16 He treated Abram well for her sake, and Abram acquired sheep and cattle, male and female donkeys, male and female servants, and camels.
But the Lord inflicted serious diseases on Pharaoh and his household because of Abram"s wife Sarai. 18 So Pharaoh summoned Abram. "What have you done to me?" he said. "Why didn"t you tell me she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, "She is my sister," so that I took her to be my wife? Now then, here is your wife. Take her and go!" Then Pharaoh gave orders about Abram to his men, and they sent him on his way, with his wife and everything he had."

This scam was later repeated in Genesis 20:
"Now Abraham moved on from there into the region of the Negev and lived between Kadesh and Shur. For a while he stayed in Gerar, 2 and there Abraham said of his wife Sarah, "She is my sister." Then Abimelek king of Gerar sent for Sarah and took her.

3 But God came to Abimelek in a dream one night and said to him, "You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken; she is a married woman."

4 Now Abimelek had not gone near her, so he said, "Lord, will you destroy an innocent nation? 5 Did he not say to me, "She is my sister," and didn"t she also say, "He is my brother"? I have done this with a clear conscience and clean hands."

6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her. 7 Now return the man"s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not return her, you may be sure that you and all who belong to you will die."

8 Early the next morning Abimelek summoned all his officials, and when he told them all that had happened, they were very much afraid. 9 Then Abimelek called Abraham in and said, "What have you done to us? How have I wronged you that you have brought such great guilt upon me and my kingdom? You have done things to me that should never be done." 10 And Abimelek asked Abraham, "What was your reason for doing this?"

11 Abraham replied, "I said to myself, "There is surely no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife." 12 Besides, she really is my sister, the daughter of my father though not of my mother; and she became my wife. 13 And when God had me wander from my father"s household, I said to her, "This is how you can show your love to me: Everywhere we go, say of me, "He is my brother."""

14 Then Abimelek brought sheep and cattle and male and female slaves and gave them to Abraham, and he returned Sarah his wife to him. 15 And Abimelek said, "My land is before you; live wherever you like."

16 To Sarah he said, "I am giving your brother a thousand shekels[a] of silver. This is to cover the offense against you before all who are with you; you are completely vindicated."

17 Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelek, his wife and his female slaves so they could have children again, 18 for the Lord had kept all the women in Abimelek"s household from conceiving because of Abraham"s wife Sarah."

So, as can be seen here, Abraham was a pimp.
talmid

Con

Either Abraham was a pimp, or you simply don't know how to understand the verses, because you have no access to the oral explanations and rabbinic commentaries...

The story of Abram, Sarai and Pharaoh is very simple. Abraham comes to Egypt. Upon arriving, he remembers how corrupt the Egyptians are, and he knew without any doubt that they'd try to steal his wife, who was very beautiful. But, in order to do that, they'd have to kill Abraham first. Therefore, Abraham asked Sarah to say that he was her brother and not her husband, so that Pharaoh wouldn't klil him.
The story with Abraham, Sarah and Abimelech is like this: Abraham knew that Abimelech would want to take Sarah for a wife, and in order to do that he would have to kill Abraham first. Again, in an attempt to save his life, he asked Sarah to say that she was his sister and not his husband, so that there is no competition. That night, G-d came to Abimelech and threatened to kill him if he didn't give back Sarah. So, he complied. The rest you can figure out from the verses, hopefully. That simple, nothing to do with prostitution.

This is the danger of reading the Torah without the commentaries and explanations of our rabbis. You cannot understand ONE WORD of the Torah without the commentaries to help understand what's going on, like, for example, Rashi, Ramban, Sforno, and others. There is also Midrash Rabbah, but I'm not so sure that you're ready for it. Our rabbis are the masters of Torah, and so they know what's going on. Try to read the Torah, starting again from the beginning, but this time read it WITH the commentary of Rashi (who is one of the most respected commentators).

Notes:
1. Pharaoh and Abimelech never succeeded in violating Sarah in the end.
2. Rashi's name is Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki
3. You can read the Torah with Rashi's commentary here: http://www.chabad.org...;
Debate Round No. 1
harrytruman

Pro

"Either Abraham was a pimp, or you simply don't know how to understand the verses, because you have no access to the oral explanations and rabbinic commentaries..."

"The story of Abram, Sarai and Pharaoh is very simple. Abraham comes to Egypt. Upon arriving, he remembers how corrupt the Egyptians are, and he knew without any doubt that they'd try to steal his wife, who was very beautiful. But, in order to do that, they'd have to kill Abraham first. Therefore, Abraham asked Sarah to say that he was her brother and not her husband, so that Pharaoh wouldn't klil him."

Abraham said that, but if you will note, when Pharaoh found out, he didn't kill Abraham, he just sent hi on his way, with all the gifts he gave him before, so Abraham banked out in the end. Most likely why he tried it with Abimelek. Historically, we know that Egypt was generally a very good place, except under a few Pharaohs, Namor, and one other guy, who lived 400 years before Ramses, and Ramses the great. Which reminds me of the Story of Exodus under that Pharaoh that lived 400 years before Ramses, there is much archaeological proof of this, but for another debate.

"The story with Abraham, Sarah and Abimelech is like this: Abraham knew that Abimelech would want to take Sarah for a wife, and in order to do that he would have to kill Abraham first. Again, in an attempt to save his life, he asked Sarah to say that she was his sister and not his husband, so that there is no competition. That night, G-d came to Abimelech and threatened to kill him if he didn't give back Sarah. So, he complied. The rest you can figure out from the verses, hopefully. That simple, nothing to do with prostitution."

Again, we see this pattern, now please note, Abimelek complied with Gods orders once he knew it was Abraham's wife, and was a honest enough man to give Abraham much things to satisfy his want for stuff. He even gave Sarah 400 pieces of silver just to "repay for any wrong I MIGHT have done to you," so obviously Abimekels a honest man, because he too did not kill Abraham to get to his wife.

And furthermore, if Pharaoh and Abimekel were corrupt as were their nations, Abraham would not go their for him and his wife's sake, but obviously it was safe enough to go to. Also, Pharaohs were generally good, otherwise Joseph, his brothers and their descendants would not live there for 400 years, and there was no need to leave until the end, when, you know, the whole slavery ordeal and such.
If Egypt was evil, then God would not have told Joseph and his brothers to live there for 400 years, if they had a bad culture, God would not let them be there, just like he told Abraham NOT to raise Isaac in Er, because the culture was bad, with the whole baby sacrifices thing, probably the reason Abraham didn't think it abnormal when God asked him to sacrifice Isaac.

"This is the danger of reading the Torah without the commentaries and explanations of our rabbis. You cannot understand ONE WORD of the Torah without the commentaries to help understand what's going on, like, for example, Rashi, Ramban, Sforno, and others. There is also Midrash Rabbah, but I'm not so sure that you're ready for it. Our rabbis are the masters of Torah, and so they know what's going on. Try to read the Torah, starting again from the beginning, but this time read it WITH the commentary of Rashi (who is one of the most respected commentators)."

OK, I will, but I really think it means he was pimping his wife out, also, Isaac tried it with Rachael, with the SAME GUY Abimekel, poor guy, it's in Genesis 26 by the way, like father like son!

"Notes:
1. Pharaoh and Abimelech never succeeded in violating Sarah in the end.
2. Rashi's name is Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki
3. You can read the Torah with Rashi's commentary here: http://www.chabad.org...;

Thanks for the link, I will review it, but I will still debate this unless it proves me wrong.
talmid

Con

1. Pharaoh did not kill Abraham because he knew that he was a special man, after having been stricken by the plagues that G-d hit him with. In rabbinic literature, it is taught that whatever Sarai said should happen to Pharaoh and his men happened, e.x "strike that one with boils, set that one on fire, etc".
2. Abe was not a jokester who played pranks on people, and needless to say kings. He didn't tell Pharaoh/Abimelech that Sarah was his wife for a simple reason: Because they would kill him to get rid of the competition, or at least he feared so.
3. Abimelech was NOT a good man. He was terrified for his life, which is why he complied with Abraham the way he did. In truth, Abimelech knew that Abraham was Sarah's husband, as evidenced by G-d's threat to his life. Why would G-d threaten someone for something which is not his fault? Abimelech was just using the whole brother-sister thing as an excuse to share a bed with Sarah, and then, he would be able to excuse himself later by saying "They said that they were siblings!".
4. As for why Abraham went to Egypt, it was because there was a famine in the land that he lived in, and since Egypt was the center of trade, there was obviously less famine there. He was forced to go there, and take his wife with him. This was all behind G-d's plan. The purpose of Sarah's abduction was to test Abraham to see how much faith he had in G-d. This was one of the ten tests which G-d tested Abraham with. The same goes for the reason why Israel and his sons went to Egypt. That was the whole point of Joseph being sold into slavery, so that he could later become king and save his family from the famine.

Again, I'd like to point out the danger of no rabbinic literature. Like I said before, you cannot understand the Torah without the aid of rabbinic commentaries and explanations to certain verses. You serve as a prime example. Had you known the above, about the Ten Trials of Abraham, and other things, you would never be asking these questions. Without the rabbis, the whole Torah makes zero sense, at least to the common man who cannot delve into the meaning of the words.

Debate Round No. 2
harrytruman

Pro

"1. Pharaoh did not kill Abraham because he knew that he was a special man, after having been stricken by the plagues that G-d hit him with. In rabbinic literature, it is taught that whatever Sarai said should happen to Pharaoh and his men happened, e.x "strike that one with boils, set that one on fire, etc"."

This may have been so, but during the Exodus, why didn't Pharaoh (obviously a different Pharaoh) listen to Moses because "he knew he was a special man". If the Pharaoh was really that evil, he would ignore it and continue on his life. Furthermore, if the Pharaoh thought Abraham was a very special man and would not harm him because of this, why did Abraham worry in the first place?
According to the Oral Torah, Sarah had an angel with her and Abraham knew that she would be protected by this angel. Regardless, it was still not justified, let me tell a story to say why:
"Say me and you are walking by a ledge one day, when some Mafiosa tells me to kick you off the cliff for 5$, so I say "don"t worry talmid, you have God protecting you!" So I kick you off a cliff and collect the 5$, you land on a trampoline and survive, then I expect to be friends with you after that."
No! It would not be acceptable to do that, God protection or no.

"2. Abe was not a jokester who played pranks on people, and needless to say kings. He didn't tell Pharaoh/Abimelech that Sarah was his wife for a simple reason: Because they would kill him to get rid of the competition, or at least he feared so."

It wasn"t a prank, it was a scam, the intention, according to the Oral Torah, was that he would say "she"s my sister", the Egyptians give him gifts enable for him to give them Sarah, and he ditches the place the next day. Nevertheless, even if the incident with Egypt was as you say, the incident with Abimekel was completely unprecedented, and Abraham had no reason to believe that Abimekel would do this. There"s much evidence that Abimekel and Abraham were friends, or at the very least allies, Abraham knew that Abimekel would not do anything to him to steal Sarah, it was just a scam he tried.
From the story of Rahab, we know that lying is acceptable in the case of life or death, this justifies the "she"s my sister" business on the part of lying, given that Abraham had a legitimate reason to believe this, but Abraham should not have had any intent on making a profit on this.
Lying to save lives is one thing, lying to save your life, AND make a profit, is something completely different, and it is the definition of swindling.

"3. Abimelech was NOT a good man. He was terrified for his life, which is why he complied with Abraham the way he did. In truth, Abimelech knew that Abraham was Sarah's husband, as evidenced by G-d's threat to his life. Why would G-d threaten someone for something which is not his fault? Abimelech was just using the whole brother-sister thing as an excuse to share a bed with Sarah, and then, he would be able to excuse himself later by saying "They said that they were siblings!"."

As we can be seen from the texts here: Genesis 20:6:
"Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against me. That is why I did not let you touch her."
God said that Abimekel did this on a clean conscience because he didn"t know that Sarah was his wife, hence the reason why Abimekel was only threatened, not plagued, because God knew he didn"t really do anything wrong. Furthermore, there is another verse suggesting this:

Genesis 26:10-11:
"Then Abimelek said, "What is this you have done to us? One of the men might well have slept with your wife, and you would have brought guilt upon us."
11 So Abimelek gave orders to all the people: "Anyone who harms this man or his wife shall surely be put to death."
Abimekel feared sin, and he kept away from it as best he could, he even made orders saying that no one should harm Isaac or his wife, from this we can infer that Abimekel was in fact an honest man. Additionally, Abraham knew that Pharaoh knew that he was "a special person", and did not harm him, and Abimekel was much more morally inclined than the Pharaoh, giving Abraham all the more reason to think that Abimekel would NOT hurt him or his wife. Furthermore, there is scriptural evidence to suggest that Abimekel and Abraham were friends, even further establishing that Abraham had no reason to believe he would hurt him.

"As for why Abraham went to Egypt, it was because there was a famine in the land that he lived in, and since Egypt was the center of trade, there was obviously less famine there. He was forced to go there, and take his wife with him. This was all behind G-d's plan. The purpose of Sarah's abduction was to test Abraham to see how much faith he had in G-d. This was one of the ten tests which G-d tested Abraham with. The same goes for the reason why Israel and his sons went to Egypt. That was the whole point of Joseph being sold into slavery, so that he could later become king and save his family from the famine."

I know it was a famine, but he could have gone somewhere else, if these people are really evil enough to kill him to steal his wife, why would Abraham chose this place as opposed to anywhere else. He could have gone east to the Mediterranean for example. This is much closer to Canaan than Egypt, and there was guaranteed to be food there.

"Again, I'd like to point out the danger of no rabbinic literature. Like I said before, you cannot understand the Torah without the aid of rabbinic commentaries and explanations to certain verses. You serve as a prime example. Had you known the above, about the Ten Trials of Abraham, and other things, you would never be asking these questions. Without the rabbis, the whole Torah makes zero sense, at least to the common man who cannot delve into the meaning of the words."

The trouble with building a religion on teachings of Rabbis which teachings are based on Rabbis before them which teachings are based on Rabbis before them which eventually leads back to the Torah, is like translating the Torah from Hebrew to Latin to German, to Italian, to English etc., and expecting that bible to be accurate and in line with the original messages. Now, I"d like to clarify, I am not against rabbinical teachings, I am only saying that, if a rabbinical teaching is not backed by scriptural evidence from the Torah, it cannot be regarded as true with the same surety as we can give it if it is in the Torah.
According to rabbinical teachings, Abraham hid his wife in a box, but we have no reason to believe this, in fact we have all the reason to think otherwise.
Abraham could not have just hid her in the box the whole time he was there, not only could she get heat stroke, but how would she eat or drink or sleep without someone seeing her get out of the box to do so, and he couldn"t pass food and water in there, someone would notice that, and what kind of husband would he be leaving his wife in a box all day?
According to the Oral Torah, the whole place "light up" when the box was opened so that Sarah was visible, if this was so, then Abraham could not have opened the box up without the same thing happening, hence he would have to keep her in a box all day.
I, on the other hand, have a very easy solution, just give her a Sombrero! Abraham just gives Sarah a Sombrero and a Poncho to wear, she covers her face with the Sombrero, her body with the Poncho, and no one notices. He just says it"s his cousin from Mehico, and problem solved! No boxes/Say you"re my sister/Angels necessary, just a Sombrero and a Poncho.
Obcourse not a literal Sombrero and a Poncho, but you get the point, Sarah wears something to cover her up, or dresses to fake to be a man, either way is good, and problem solved. Why didn"t Abraham do this? Because he couldn"t make a profit, and that is what this whole thing is about, profit.
As to the story of Isaac and Abimekel in Genesis 26, Isaac knew that Abimekel was NOT the kind of person to sleep with someone else"s wife, and that he made compensation when he did, or even that there was a chance that he MIGHT have wronged her in any way he would compensate. He knew that Abimekel was a honest man, and he knew that Abimekel would especially not hurt him because he knew that God had favor with him.
So Isaac had no reason to do this.

Conclusion:
So Abraham did this soley to rip poor saps out of money, and it had nothing to do with safety or anything like that. This was just a swindle, and regardless of whether or not Sarah actually had anything done to her, Abraham knew better than to put her in that position, and he should not have done it. Just like I should not kick someone off a cliff for 5$, even if there was a trampoline at the bottom and I knew that he would not be harmed. You should never put anyone, let alone your wife, in that position, period, regardless of whether or not anything happens as a result.
talmid

Con

I'm sorry but this is an utter waste of my time and I will not continue to feed your immature trolling appetite. Abraham was not a pimp. He did not use Sarah do get money. He was not interested in money, as evidenced by the result of his victory over the 4 kings. After he won the war against the enemies, the allies offered to worship him and give him lots of money, but he said "Not even a thread or a shoelace shall you give me." He told Sarah to say that he was his sister so that he wouldn't be killed by Pharaoh/Abimelech as some sort of competition for Sarah. They happened to have given him gifts, and he did not reject them. Also, remember this last thing: Pharaoh and Abimelech never touched Sarah once, so to say that there was prostitution involved is fruitless, just like this "debate".
Debate Round No. 3
harrytruman

Pro

Abraham had no interest in making profit? That's not what the verse says, Genesis 12:13:
"So please tell them you are my sister. Then they will spare my life and treat me well because of their interest in you."

Please note, "treat me well", does NOT mean they will spare his life, he mentioned that separately. This means that they will pay him or give him gifts. so this has been resolved, Abraham himself said that it was to get gifts, there is nothing further to debate here.

So, I addressed that Abraham had better options than to get her to say she was his sister, I explained that she could cover her face so no one knew she was beautiful, she could dress like a man so no one would be attracted to her (it's easy, Deborah Sampson did it), or he could have smuggled her into Egypt at night without anyone noticing. So why did Abraham do it this way even though there were obviously better options, simple; profit, he explains this.

And finally, I did not mean to say pimp, I meant to change the argument, but it didn't save my edit, I'm sorry.
talmid

Con

ahhh... Again, I'd like to point out how you MUST check the rabbinic commentaries. There IS a famous Midrash that says Abraham originally had Sarah hidden in a box, but she was discovered, and then all of these precautions took way. And what did you mean if not pimp? You seem to be implying that Abraham used Sarah to make some cash. But that's besides the point - which is that Abraham did not come to Egypt just to make money off of Pharaoh. If you ask me, it's kind of a stupid plan - since right afterward, after Pharaoh found out that Abe was Sarah's husband, he'd kill him. Luckily, G-d stopped that from happening, which shows that He approved of Abraham's actions; and thus, we can conclude that he had no malevolent intentions as you would like to claim.
Debate Round No. 4
harrytruman

Pro

"ahhh... Again, I'd like to point out how you MUST check the rabbinic commentaries. There IS a famous Midrash that says Abraham originally had Sarah hidden in a box, but she was discovered, and then all of these precautions took way. And what did you mean if not pimp? You seem to be implying that Abraham used Sarah to make some cash. But that's besides the point - which is that Abraham did not come to Egypt just to make money off of Pharaoh. If you ask me, it's kind of a stupid plan - since right afterward, after Pharaoh found out that Abe was Sarah's husband, he'd kill him. Luckily, G-d stopped that from happening, which shows that He approved of Abraham's actions; and thus, we can conclude that he had no malevolent intentions as you would like to claim."

1). There are many better options than a box like I stated before.

2). I meant pimp, I just tried to edit it to make it a little less offensive, but it didn't go through. Abraham could have gotten her to wear something to cover her face and her body, he could have dressed her like a man (Deborah Sampson did it), or he could have snuck her in at midnight so no one noticed her.

3). Abraham DID want to use Sarah to make a couple of bucks, he said that; "so that I may benefit because of you."

4). Abraham did not come to Egypt with the intention of ripping the Pharaoh off, he came because of the famine. He decided to rip the Pharaoh off later.

5). G-d saving Abraham does NOT mean that he approved of his actions, G-d saved Lot, did he approve of HIS actions? Keep in mind, Lot offered to have his daughters be gang-raped-to death by a roaring mob of homosexuals. Then he had sex with his DAUGHTERS! You can say that he was drunk, but you can't, because when you are drunk to an extent that you can't tell that who you are having sex with is your daughters, you are incapable of ejaculation.
talmid

Con

talmid forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: Hayd// Mod action: NOT Removed<

3 points to Con (Arguments), 1 point to Pro (Conduct). Reasons for voting decision: Con forfeited so conduct to Pro. Pro shows verses of Abraham, but does not tell me how these show that he is a pimp. THeres just the verses. Even if he were to tell me; Con shows that none of the arguments have impact because in order to interpret any information, you must have a rabbit advise on it. This wipes out all of Pro's evidence. Pro drops this rebuttal, and thus his arguments go refuted.

[*Reason for non-removal*] Conduct is explained sufficiently. The voter specifically addresses arguments made by both debaters and clearly couches their decision in the arguments made.

Note: While the reporter keeps suggesting problems with this vote, none of them have to do with the vote's sufficiency under the standards. Unless the voter has something to add with regards to the standards and its failure to meet them, further reports of this vote will be ignored.
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Posted by harrytruman 1 year ago
harrytruman
I explained this too! Avram told Sarai to sleep with the Pharaoh for money, thoroughly explained! This person seems to like to lie about me.
Posted by whiteflame 1 year ago
whiteflame
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>Reported vote: Hayd// Mod action: NOT Removed<

3 points to Con (Arguments), 1 point to Pro (Conduct). Reasons for voting decision: Con forfeited so conduct to Pro. Pro shows verses of Abraham, but does not tell me how these show that he is a pimp. THeres just the verses. Even if he were to tell me; Con shows that none of the arguments have impact because in order to interpret any information, you must have a rabbit advise on it. This wipes out all of Pro's evidence. Pro drops this rebuttal, and thus his arguments go refuted.

[*Reason for non-removal*] Conduct is explained sufficiently. The voter specifically addresses arguments made by both debaters and clearly couches their decision in the arguments made. Just because the reporter doesn't like it doesn't mean it's not sufficient.
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1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by Hayd 1 year ago
Hayd
harrytrumantalmidTied
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Total points awarded:13 
Reasons for voting decision: Con forfeited so conduct to Pro. Pro shows verses of Abraham, but does not tell me how these show that he is a pimp. THeres just the verses. Even if he were to tell me; Con shows that none of the arguments have impact because in order to interpret any information, you must have a rabbit advise on it. This wipes out all of Pro's evidence. Pro drops this rebuttal, and thus his arguments go refuted.