The Instigator
SterlingCamp
Pro (for)
The Contender
gomergcc
Con (against)

According to the Bible (Old and New Testament), Jesus is God

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 5/8/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 months ago Status: Debating Period
Viewed: 530 times Debate No: 102482
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (13)
Votes (0)

 

SterlingCamp

Pro

This debate is contending the issue of whether or not the Bible contains evidence that indicates Jesus Christ is God. Pro's position states that Jesus is God according to the Bible and Con's position states that the Bible does not claim Jesus as God.
Please read the rules carefully as to accept this debate is to accept the rules of this debate and thereby follow them.

Rules:
(1) Evidence should primarily be from the Bible (Old and New Testament) as we are debating a theological issue. All theological issues should be grounded in the Bible. The Bible is defined as the traditional protestant canon established in the London Baptist Confession of Faith. You may use any translation you desire, and you may use multiple translations in your arguments with the simple rule that you cite the translation you are using.

(2) This debate presupposes the authority of scripture, the existence of God, and the existence of and humanity of Christ. The matter should be focused on the issue of Christ's deity. Given the nature of the debate there will be issues of trinitarian matters as well as issues pertaining to the hypostatic union of Christ. The goal will be to keep those matters brief since those are easily debates for another day.
(3) No personal attacks, or any games that will reduce this debate to anything less than what it is intended to be, which is a serious debate.

(4) There are four rounds.
(a) The first round is acceptance and recognition that the rules are understood and will be followed.
(b) The second round will be Pro's case and Con's first rebuttal. Con is encouraged to make a case in the second round.
(c) The third round will be rebuttals and additional cases.
(d) The fourth round consists of final cases/conclusions

(5) All definitions will firstly be valid in accordance to orthodox biblical theological terms. If there is any reason to define a term it will firstly be in accordance with the theological definition. All secondary definitions will be based on definitions provided by dictonary.com. CARM is a good place for basic theological definitions.
(6) If you do not have an argument or wish to forfeit, I ask that you please submit something and further the debate instead of letting the time run out.

Conclusion:
I only ask that the person who ends up partaking in this challenge will take it seriously. I hope to have fun in this endeavor. I will most likely re-issue this debate afterwards with the same argument for future challenges.

God bless you all and I look forward to the challenge.
gomergcc

Con

I accpet this debate. For clarity and to keep up on track I would like like to define a few things.


The Godhead thoery: That God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirt are 3 aspects of one single being also known as God. (PRO)

The Trinity thoery: That God, Jesus, and the Holy Sprirt are 3 sepreate beings. (CON)

The Bible: The 66 canon text of the Christain bible. (IE The Book of Mormon, Gnostic texts, and other non canon texts are not included.)

Scripture: Any of the words in the defined term of "The Bible"

Dogma: Christain beliefs, ritual, or other activity that may or may not be backed up with Scripture.


I concede to any agrument on Jesus's divinity and to the vitality of Christanity and with be confining my argument only to the Godhead vs Trinity debate.
Debate Round No. 1
SterlingCamp

Pro

Thank you for accepting the debate. This round will contain a challenge of the definitions as well as my initial argument.

Definitions:

I am challenging some of Con’s definitions because they are neither orthodox or accurate in regards to the position I take, despite that the debate never calls for these established positions to begin with.

Con presents “The Godhead theory”, which is neither a theory, nor defined by Con correctly. Con states, “That God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are 3 aspects of one single being also known as God. (PRO)” Con’s definition here is actually closer to the “trinity theory” than anything related to the Godhead.

What is the Godhead? “"Godhead" is a word used to describe the Trinity--that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who are all one essence.” (https://carm.org...). It is basically a word describing the divine nature of God, “the essential being of God; the Supreme Being. the Holy Trinity of God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Ghost.” (http://www.dictionary.com...)

Not only does Con’s definition contradict the idea that it this “Godhead theory” is separate from the trinity, but it has no relevance in that there is no “Godhead theory” to begin with as it is a word found in the King James Bible three times.

Con presents, “The Trinity theory”, which is formally known as trinitarianism, which he defines as, “That God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are 3 separate beings. (CON)” Not only is this NOT trinitarianism, and far from being considered orthodox by The Greek Orthodox Church, Roman Catholics, and Protestants, none of them understand the trinity in this way. Some groups reject the trinity in thinking this is what Trinitarianism is and other groups outside of orthodoxy are Unitarians.

Trinity is defined as the doctrine describing the three persons who are the one being known as Yahweh. Trinitarianism describes what God is (three persons) and who God is (those three persons revealed) Trinity, “the union of three persons (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, or the three-fold personality of the one Divine Being.” “This means there are three persons in one God and not three Gods.” (https://carm.org...)

Any search for Godhead and Trinity, even when looking at Wikipedia, would bring you to definitions different than what Con presented. As well as this, I am a Trinitarian as I hold to the Westminster Confessions of Faith, chapter 2 (http://www.reformed.org...).

As for the bible, I agree with Con’s definition as I already established what he stated, and I am fine with using the word “scripture” to mean the bible. I disagree with Con’s definition of Dogma as well, but don’t think it will affect much. A more proper definition would be, “a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true:

"the Christian dogma of the Trinity"” (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com...). Orthodox Protestants hold to Scripture as the final authority for faith and practice, which counters the definition provided by Con. I don’t believe his definition to be problematic, though.

Con’s last statement is, “I concede to any argument on Jesus's divinity and to the vitality of Christianity and with be confining my argument only to the Godhead vs Trinity debate.”

Not only is this NOT the debate, but being that the trinity is a doctrine describing the Godhead, there is no versus between the two. I stated in rule #2, “The matter should be focused on the issue of Christ's deity. Given the nature of the debate there will be issues of trinitarian matters as well as issues pertaining to the hypostatic union of Christ. The goal will be to keep those matters brief since those are easily debates for another day.”



My argument:

(1) The New Testament claims Jesus saved a people out of the land of Egypt.

“Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those who did not believe” (Jude 1:5, ESV).




(2) The reference to rescuing Israel from Egypt is one found throughout all of the Bible beginning with the event itself known at the Exodus.

Not only is this event repeated throughout scripture and celebrated through the Passover, it is what brings about the initiation of the Mosaic covenant. The people of Israel are told over and over again to remember being brought out of Egypt. This narrative is nearly common knowledge among atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Jews and Christians alike as we know well the story of the parting sea as Israel escaped Egypt. Despite the observation that many know of this event, some examples, out of many, are provided to confirm this biblical narrative:

Exodus 13:3(a), “Then Moses said to the people, “Remember this day in which you came out from Egypt.”

Exodus 34:18, “You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month Abib, for in the month Abib you came out from Egypt.”

Judges, “but when they came up from Egypt, Israel went through the wilderness to the Red Sea and came to Kadesh.”

2 Samuel 7:6, “I have not lived in a house since the day I brought up the people of Israel from Egypt to this day, but I have been moving about in a tent for my dwelling.”




(3) God, the LORD, is the one who brought the people out of Egypt.



In this narrative, we know that God sends plagues to Egypt in order to accomplish this task. It is repeated that God brought the people out of Egypt lest the people forget and abandon their covenant with God. For the sake of avoiding confusion, it should be acknowledged that the word “LORD” (in all capitals) always signifies God in the biblical text.

Here is the entire verse of Exodus 13:3, “Then Moses said to the people, “Remember this day in which you came out from Egypt, out of the house of slavery, for by a strong hand the LORD brought you out from this place. No leavened bread shall be eaten.”
There are roughly 95 verses in the Bible signifying that the “LORD” brought people out of Egypt. Here are some:

Deuteronomy 20:1, "When you go out to war against your enemies, and see horses and chariots and an army larger than your own, you shall not be afraid of them, for the LORD your God is with you, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt.”

Deuteronomy 24:9, “Remember what the LORD your God did to Miriam on the way as you came out of Egypt.”

Deuteronomy 26:8, “And the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, with great deeds of terror, with signs and wonders.”

Deuteronomy 29:25, “Then people will say, 'It is because they abandoned the covenant of the LORD, the God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them out of the land of Egypt,”

Joshua 24:17, “for it is the LORD our God who brought us and our fathers up from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, and who did those great signs in our sight and preserved us in all the way that we went, and among all the peoples through whom we passed.”

Judges 2:12 (a), “And they abandoned the LORD, the God of their fathers, who had brought them out of the land of Egypt.”




(4) Jesus is God

(a) We are told that Jesus is the one who brought the people out of Egypt, “Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterwards destroyed those who did not believe” (Jude 1:5, ESV).

(b) And it is common knowledge at this point in the biblical narrative that God is the one who brought the people out of Egypt.

(c) Therefore, Jesus is God

Additionally: The readers of Jude would have understood this to be the case given that they were primarily Jews and knew well the story of the Exodus and celebrated it every year.



Conclusion:

I look forward to Con’s case.

S.C.

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Debate Round No. 2
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Debate Round No. 3
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Debate Round No. 4
13 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by SterlingCamp 8 months ago
SterlingCamp
Oneness Pentecostals are unorthodox* in their Unitarianism. Regardless, the debate isn't around your premise.
Posted by SterlingCamp 8 months ago
SterlingCamp
No I'm using orthodox definitions, nobody defines those terms that way and claims it orthodox. Again, Protestant orthodoxy, which includes Pentecostals. If you mean oneness Pentecostals, they are orthodox, and they also wouldn't define the doctrine of the trinity in that way. They are also Unitarians hence "oneness Pentecostal". I also stated a source to reference for orthodox terms, which is the link I just sent you. Nobody, defines Trinity or tribitarians as you did here, and Godhead is, again, a term describing God's nature. That word derives from the king James translation.
Posted by gomergcc 8 months ago
gomergcc
You stated "orthodox biblical theological terms." In my turn I clarified some terms be to Orthodox Pentecostal meanings so we didn't get into this debate because your using Greek and Catholic Orthodox meanings.
Posted by gomergcc 8 months ago
gomergcc
You stated "orthodox biblical theological terms." In my turn I clarified some terms be to Orthodox Pentecostal meanings so we didn't get into this debate because your using Greek and Catholic Orthodox meanings.
Posted by gomergcc 8 months ago
gomergcc
You stated "orthodox biblical theological terms." In my turn I clarified some terms be to Orthodox Pentecostal meanings so we didn't get into this debate because your using Greek and Catholic Orthodox meanings.
Posted by gomergcc 8 months ago
gomergcc
You stated "orthodox biblical theological terms." In my turn I clarified some terms be to Orthodox Pentecostal meanings so we didn't get into this debate because your using Greek and Catholic Orthodox meanings.
Posted by SterlingCamp 8 months ago
SterlingCamp
That being said, I'm a trinitarian and trinitarians do not believe God to be three separate beings. As I mentioned in the rules definitions are defined by orthodox theological definitions. The word Godhead describes God's essential nature. (https://carm.org...). Your definition is not only wrong, but you make two words relating to the same topic mean two different things. I will clarify this in my round, however, this is a non issue as I said these matters should be brief in the rules.
Posted by SterlingCamp 8 months ago
SterlingCamp
Con, you're mistaken. Trinitarianism states that God is one being consisting of three persons. Reemember that this debate is focusing on the deity of Christ, not trinitarianism, nor Mormonisms' Godhead debate. Dogma is also poorly defined as all dogmatic teachings must be scriptural in orthodox Protestantism. As for canon, that was established already.

This debate is on whether or not Jesus is God according to the Bible.
Posted by SterlingCamp 8 months ago
SterlingCamp
We got off to a bad start, if you feel compelled to debate, then let's debate. I'm over the last one, just ready to move on.
Posted by SterlingCamp 8 months ago
SterlingCamp
If you play by the rules I'd be happy to debate you here. Every passage can be explained.
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