The Instigator
Mr.Moves3
Pro (for)
Losing
0 Points
The Contender
2-D
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

According to the Bible, ghosts are not real.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 3 votes the winner is...
2-D
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 10/3/2013 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,389 times Debate No: 38451
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (3)

 

Mr.Moves3

Pro

When people died, their spirits doesn't travel around places here on Earth. Spirits returns to God, therefore spirits can't just wander around anywhere they want. Ecclesiastes 12:7 " Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. " Spirits are in God's hand and in God's control, so why would God make those spirits walk around in places? The spirits that people are getting scared about aren't the dead person's spirit, but it's the demons that are scaring people.
2-D

Con


Just to clarify, I don’t believe in ghosts but I do not think your resolution is accurate to the bible.


Both Jesus and his disciples confirm that ghosts exist. There are references in the bible of spirits of the dead appearing to living people. Assuming all spirits immediately go to the afterlife, which is not justified, why could they not still appear on earth as a vision? In other words, just because we see them does not mean they are on earth.


Jesus and the disciples confirm that ghosts exist


In Matthew 14:22-33 the disciples saw Jesus walking on water and assumed he was a Ghost, “When the disciples saw him walking on the lake, they were terrified. “It’s a ghost,” they said, and cried out in fear.”


The disciples think Jesus is a ghost after his resurrection and he reassures them in Luke 24:39, “Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."



Jesus and the disciples confirm that ghosts exist; this is enough to refute your resolution. It’s also important that he never warns them that ghosts are all actually deceptive demons. Why did Jesus let this obvious deception go leaving them ignorant of the danger in believing in ghosts? I concede that Jesus and passages in scripture warn that the Devil and demons can be deceptive but why in all of scripture are we not warned that ghosts are actually demons if this is true?



There are examples of the dead appearing to the living in scripture


This alone is enough to stop your resolution. There are two examples of Ghosts appearing in the bible.


-Samuel


Saul consulted a medium in 1 Samuel 28:9-21 to consult with Samuel's ghost and they have a conversation. The medium can actually see Samuel and describes him, “’I see a spirit coming up out of the ground.’ ‘What does he look like?’ he asked. ‘An old man wearing a robe is coming up,’ …Samuel said to Saul, ‘Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?’ "I am in great distress.’” Notice this is against God’s command but he has allowed it and that Samuel describes being forced and appears visually to the medium.



-Moses and Elijah



In Matthew 17:3 Moses and Elijah are seen by Peter, James and John speaking with Jesus, “And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.” Moses and Elijah appear to the living after death. These are examples of ghosts appearing so there are at least three ghosts in the bible.



The bible condones the belief in Spirits and an afterlife


This makes ghosts more likely than a skeptical world-view. The bible never makes it a rule that spirits cannot appear on earth (whether they are a vision and are currently in heaven/hell or literally visiting earth) and if this were a rule there are many examples of God making exceptions to the laws of nature with miracles and his commands. I’ll give you my take on the Lazarus parable next round since I think it improves my position.


The Bible acknowledges that you can communicate with spirits in the afterlife


Mediums and spiritists are condemned as evil in the bible in Lev 19:31, 20:27, 2 Chron 33:6 and there are many other examples. Duet 18:10-13 states, “Let no one be found among you …who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.”


This acknowledges that there is direct contact between this world and the next. The only medium example in the bible I am aware of, the Samuel incident above, the medium actually sees the spirit.


You assume that it you go to heaven or hell immediately


It’s possible that they can become trapped or hang around for a few days, which is a typical explanation for ghosts [2]. You need to establish this from scripture. You are limiting God here and simply making an assuming that he would never allow this. The bible already establishes that spirits are real making ghosts a lot more likely


Assuming all dead people are in heaven or hell, why couldn’t we see them there?


There are many examples of visions in the bible. Revelation and Daniel are chock-full of them. You assume ghosts are all demons but isn’t a vision of someone currently in hell/heaven a plausible alternate explanation? There is no reason to suspect that the ghosts are necessarily on earth and this isn’t some intersection with the spiritual plane.


Your understanding of ghosts does not par with standard definitions


You did not define ghost so here are a couple definitions from thefreedicitonary.com


1. The spirit of a dead person, especially one believed to appear in bodily likeness to living persons or to haunt former habitats.


2. The center of spiritual life; the soul.


3. A demon or spirit.


Notice the first definition defines a ghost as a spirit of a dead person that is not necessarily on earth and this is typical. Three defines a demon as a ghost and both definitions are compatible with the bible but you assume a ghost must be spiritually present on earth.


-


Jesus and his disciples confirm that ghosts exist. There are at least two examples of dead spirits appearing to the living in the bible. My opponent is making a positive claim that the bible says there are no ghosts. This is simply not true. It is vague on the topic and, if anything, there is a decent biblical case that they do exist.


Well that should do for now good luck. Looking forward to your arguments.


[1] http://www.thefreedictionary.com...


[2] http://paranormal.about.com...


Debate Round No. 1
Mr.Moves3

Pro

Mr.Moves3 forfeited this round.
2-D

Con

It's better to at least say something, even to concede that your argument isn't as strong as you thought. The bible is pretty vague on a lot of doctrinal issues so many arguments that begin with, "according to the bible," are difficult to support.
Debate Round No. 2
Mr.Moves3

Pro

Mr.Moves3 forfeited this round.
2-D

Con

Well that's too bad. I think Pro's position is pretty common so I would have liked to hear it. Arguments extended.
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by fuckthisworld 3 years ago
fuckthisworld
my house is haunted, and i feel the presence of the ghosts in it and i've heard them. not only me but my little nieces too. i believe ghosts exist. im a christian but some things its hard not to believe if u've experienced them
Posted by 2-D 3 years ago
2-D
No just had a busy couple days at work. I don't see that outside objections to the bible are completely irrelevant and there may be some room for an argument there but yeah I plan on largely arguing using the bible. I am not a theist but I am very familiar with the bible. There are a few scriptures I know of the top of my head but I need to dig around a little to support a couple ideas I have.
Posted by Mr.Moves3 3 years ago
Mr.Moves3
are you forfeiting 2-D? also, notice that this debate is "according to the Bible" meaning only biblical facts can be considered evidences. Thank you.
Posted by Jakeross6 3 years ago
Jakeross6
That is actually wrong. Empirical evidence is actually very useful in theological debate since believers believe so strongly that the bible is empirical evidence.
Posted by Disquisition 3 years ago
Disquisition
It's hard to argue with empirical evidence in this debate since your in the supernatural realm.
3 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Vote Placed by drafterman 3 years ago
drafterman
Mr.Moves32-DTied
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Vote Placed by Ragnar 3 years ago
Ragnar
Mr.Moves32-DTied
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Vote Placed by Jakeross6 3 years ago
Jakeross6
Mr.Moves32-DTied
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Reasons for voting decision: FF