The Instigator
Zerosmelt
Pro (for)
Winning
46 Points
The Contender
Tatarize
Con (against)
Losing
3 Points

According to the Bible people who work on the Sabbath should be put to Death!! Lord have Mercy!

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 8/6/2008 Category: Religion
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 5,705 times Debate No: 4922
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (32)
Votes (11)

 

Zerosmelt

Pro

Pretty simply,

Exodus 31:14; 35:2; Numbers 15:32-36

Exodus

31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Numbers 15:
32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Tatarize

Con

Yeah, it is pretty straight forward with the whole put to death thing for a plethora of different crimes. However, those were Jewish rules, for Jewish people. You'll notice that even today many Orthodox Jews don't work on Saturday, however they never say that other people should be put to death for it.

Jews take the Sabbath off as a rest day for recognition of the covenant with Yahweh this was never intended to apply to "people" in general rather just "the chosen people".
Debate Round No. 1
Zerosmelt

Pro

Alright ...

I am arguing that the bible says that people who work on the sabbath should be put to death. I quoted the bible so it would be pretty hard for my opponent to refute this point.

Why have i posted this debate? (this is for you cogito) B/c theists on this website feel the need to debate whether the bible says that homosexuality is a sin and infer that it is. They have the right to do this, just as i have the right to debate other claims made by the bible.

"You'll notice that even today many Orthodox Jews don't work on Saturday, however they never say that other people should be put to death for it."

this is an irrelevant point in the debate. Simply b/c some jews don't adhere to the word of the bible/torah doesn't mean that fact changes the word of the bible/torah.

"Jews take the Sabbath off as a rest day for recognition of the covenant with Yahweh this was never intended to apply to "people" in general rather just "the chosen people"."

My opponent has not posed any argument or form of evidence for this premise.
Regardless even if it were true "chosen people" are still people. My resolution holds.

Thank you Tatarize
Tatarize

Con

I must have failed to make my point well in the previous round because you seem to either misunderstand the nature of my argument or are willfully ignoring it.

>>"My opponent has not posed any argument or form of evidence for this premise.
Regardless even if it were true "chosen people" are still people. My resolution holds."

My point isn't that the chosen people aren't people but rather not all people are the chosen people. "People who work on the Sabbath" seems only limited to those individuals who work on the Sabbath. Rather, that doesn't hold accurate.

Last Saturday I did a significant amount of work. I am a person. However, under the proper Jewish interpretation I am not to be put to death. The Torah is rather specifically rules for Jews to follow. You can go ahead and eat pigs and have all the gay sex you want. They are not rules for everybody but rather the rules for Jews.

I am a person.
I do work on the Sabbath.
Therefore I am to be put to death.

However, the rule doesn't apply to me and I am not to be put to death. There is something very specifically wrong with the topic as given, namely that it doesn't apply to me.
Debate Round No. 2
Zerosmelt

Pro

"Last Saturday I did a significant amount of work. I am a person. However, under the proper Jewish interpretation I am not to be put to death."

If you could please provide some evidence for this that would be great. because only then can we assume it to be true.

I HAVE TWO POINTS

1) We cannot assume that this rule only applies to Jews.
2) Even if this rule does only apply to Jews My resolution still holds true. This is because i never stated that all people who work on the sabbath should be put to death.

Point 1)
Numbers 15:32
And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

The children of isreal, of course, are the jews. It says that they, the jews, found a man. It doesn't say that they found another child of isreal. It says they found a man not specifically a man of any designation.

They found a random man who was working on the sabbath and put him to death.
How does this only apply to jews?

Point 2)
Let me restate my resolution:
According to the Bible people who work on the Sabbath should be put to Death.

This does not say that all people who work on the sabbath should be to death, just that people should. "people" doesnt necessarily refer to all people. It can refer to certain people. Jews are people. Just think about, lets suppose it is true that only jews will dance does make the statement 'people will dance' False?? I think not.
I believe its horrifying that the bible says that anyone should be put to death for picking up sticks on any day. No matter if they are Jews or not.

Back to you Tatarize
Tatarize

Con

>>1) We cannot assume that this rule only applies to Jews.

I'm not assuming. Go ahead and ask a Jew. If you think the Jews believe that the commandments of "God who delivered your people from Israel" apply to those who are not the children of Israel then I don't see how your view meshes even remotely with reality. You shall not kill. However passage after passage of the Bible retells in grueling detail the murder and genocide of other peoples. You shall not steal or covet but passage after passage has them raiding towns and taking sex slaves etc. I'm utterly dumbfounded that you could imply this is an assumption on my part.

Though, I suppose you need not take my word for it:
http://www.jewfaq.org...

"While non-Jews are only obligated to obey the seven commandments given to Noah, Jews are responsible for fulfilling the 613 mitzvot in the Torah, thus G-d will punish Jews for doing things that would not be a sin for non-Jews."

The Sabbath section is in the ten commandments and part of the 613 mitzvot.

>>2) Even if this rule does only apply to Jews My resolution still holds true. This is because i never stated that all people who work on the sabbath should be put to death.

Here I must disagree. People is far different than Jews who accept that those rules are to be enforced. Moreover, no Jew today would advocate such a thing. Life is given a much higher regard than any other consideration and you'll never witness even the most orthodox of Jews killing other Jews for working on the Sabbath. Though, that's a practical consideration and of little regard to specifics of the topic.

I think the question boils down to our main point of contention. Does the topic refer to all people or not? I'm pretty sure it does. I'm a person and under a proper consideration I would not be killed for working any day I want.
Debate Round No. 3
32 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Im_always_right 8 years ago
Im_always_right
lol, alot easier than typin <im always right> evertime to adress me...
Posted by Im_always_right 8 years ago
Im_always_right
Yeah, I agree with her [xera], and of coarse the last statement you made there voided it, but for a while it wasn't there, see my comment right below xera's.
Posted by Zerosmelt 8 years ago
Zerosmelt
Thanks Xera

at least someone can see what i was getting at.

=)
Posted by Zerosmelt 8 years ago
Zerosmelt
ok ... As (let me try this out now) IAR (wow that was nice)lol.

anyway as IAR pointed out, and just so everyone knows, the comment i addressed to bthr004 was made several hours BEFOR IAR stated:

>"Also in some places he does use personal attacks against religios people"

With that said i will not apologize for calling the people who wrote the bible ignorant. First of all it was not a personal attack on anyone particularly. And secondly the statement is true. People nowadays take the word ignorant to be an insult but it actually isn't originally intended to be one. It just means to be unaware. The people who wrote the old testament were ignorant compared to us. As we will be ignorant compared to our great great grand children.

If anyone finds "ignorant" insulting then i am sorry, i didn't intend it to be.
Posted by Xera 8 years ago
Xera
Oh Lord! You can't argue what the Bible says. Regardless of if it is refuted in later passages, it does in fact contain those words, therefore I vote PRO here. It's there, you can't say it isn't. I also know it was made an irrelevant rule later (If it be the Sabbath and your ox lays in a ditch, remove the oxen from a ditch- some versions say well) Obviously Jesus would not have said that if the removing the oxen from the ditch was worthy of being killed over.
Posted by Im_always_right 8 years ago
Im_always_right
It was there, bbut I wasn't watching it, so i was not aware of it.
Posted by Im_always_right 8 years ago
Im_always_right
lol... I hate it because it is annoying dealing with Lorca, he always calls me IAOL, wich is not my name.

btw if you hate it you can do wat xera 9and every1 else does) and call me IAR.
Posted by Im_always_right 8 years ago
Im_always_right
okay ignore his last one that wasn't there when I posted the below statement:

http://www.debate.org...
Posted by Zerosmelt 8 years ago
Zerosmelt
i hate your name not becuase of what it means per-say but b/c every time i write it i have to put it in quotes or something.
Posted by Im_always_right 8 years ago
Im_always_right
lol, I hate my name when people mess with it, such as Lorca has and cognito has in the past, hold on let me find the link.
11 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Tatarize 6 years ago
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Vote Placed by Zerosmelt 8 years ago
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