The Instigator
YaHey
Con (against)
Winning
16 Points
The Contender
JasperFrancisShickadance
Pro (for)
Losing
8 Points

According to the Old Testament, Jesus is the Messiah.

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 5 votes the winner is...
YaHey
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/14/2014 Category: Religion
Updated: 3 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 828 times Debate No: 58933
Debate Rounds (4)
Comments (3)
Votes (5)

 

YaHey

Con

I would argue that according to the prophecies in the Old Testament, Jesus is not the Messiah that is predicted. First round is acceptance. Burden of Proof is shared since we are both making a claim that the Old Testament either supports or does not support Jesus as the Messiah.
JasperFrancisShickadance

Pro

I accept. Please provide definitions, thank-you.
Debate Round No. 1
YaHey

Con

Thank you for accepting.

I think the word that is up for debate here is "Messiah". Merriam-Webster Dictionary gives three definitions[1]:

1: Judaism: the expected king and deliverer of the Jews.
2: Christianity: Jesus.
3: a person who is expected to save people from a very bad situation.

Now, the third definition is unimportant to this debate, because we are seeing if Jesus is THE Messiah according to the old testament, not a Messiah. The second one is also unimportant, because it presumes Jesus to already be the Messiah, which is what we are debating. So, we are left with the first definition. Is Jesus the Messiah the Old Testament talks about?

The Messianic Prophecies: The concept of the Messiah comes from the Old Testament, so it is here we must look for the sign of his/her arrival.

1. Must be a member of the tribe Judah [2] and a descendant of King David and Solomon [3] [4].
2. Ingathering of the Jews. [5] [6]
3. Rebuilding of the Jewish Temple. [7] The temple was destroyed 38 years after Jesus' death and has not yet been rebuilt.[8]
4. World wide peace. [9]. I don't think this one needs commenting on.
5. Observance of the Torah embraced by all Jews. [10].
6. Everyone will worship the true God. [11].

Now I will show that Jesus does not fulfill these prophecies.
1A. If Jesus was the result of a virgin birth, how can he be a descendant of David and Solomon? [12]
2A. I have a cousin who is a Jew and she lives in the US.
3A. Jesus didn't rebuild the temple as it wasn't demolished yet.
4A. [13]
5A. Messianic "Jews" are "Jews" that do not follow the Torah, just for example.
6A. There are around 19 major religions. [14].

Sources:

[1] http://www.merriam-webster.com...

[2] http://biblehub.com...

[3] https://www.biblegateway.com...

[4] https://www.biblegateway.com...

[5] http://biblehub.com...

[6] https://www.biblegateway.com...

[7] https://www.biblegateway.com...

[8] http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com...

[9] https://www.biblegateway.com...

[10] http://biblehub.com...

[11] http://biblehub.com...

[12] http://www.totheends.com...

[13] http://www.warsintheworld.com...

[14] http://www.religioustolerance.org...

JasperFrancisShickadance

Pro

I accept my opponent's definitions, although they were displayed a bit confusingly, and I will rebut his argument and state mine without ado.

To begin:

From one Book, the Hebrew Scriptures, have come two faiths. One faith says: "We"d rather die than confess the name of Jesus." The other faith says: "We"d rather die than deny the name of Jesus." One faith says: "There are two Messiahs who will only come once." The other faith says: "There is one Messiah but he will come twice." How do we know which one is correct? Simple. Only one of these two faiths is based on the power of God while the other has been built on the traditions of men. There really is quite a difference! And the God of the patriarchs, the God of the exodus, the God of the prophets, is the God of the Messiah, and He has made things plain in His Word. If you seek Him with all your heart, then the Scriptures will be "a light to our path and a lamp to our feet" (Psa 119:105). His Word is sure. He cannot lie. [4]

Many verses give way to the True Messiah who is Jesus. [5]

REBUTTALS
My opponent says that the third definition, the one saying that the Messiah is a person who is expected to save people from a very bad situation, is unimportant to this debate. I see what he is saying but I would like to point out how Jesus definitely lives His life on earth this way, while in His last days He dies on the Cross to save us from our sins (the version of "a bad situation").

Messianic Prophesies are all over the Old Testament and much are fulfilled in the New Testament. But you would be surprised to find the prophesies fulfilled in the Old Testament as well. Perhaps the most remarkable is Isaiah, who prophesied no later than 680 BC many things that Cyrus the Great would accomplish, including decimating empires, allowing the Jewish people to return to their homeland, and a decree that the temple in Jerusalem be rebuilt (Isaiah 44:28-45:13). Isaiah prophesied this more than 80 years before the first exile of Jewish people were taken captive to Babylon (circa 597 BC). Cyrus ruled Persia and the kingdoms he subsequently conquered like Babylon from roughly 560 to 530 BC. [1]

There are plentiful reasons I believe Jesus is the True Messiah, but one big reason does not have to do with prophesies fulfilled, rather the logic in having Him who came to save us from our sins. Another whammy is, if Jesus wasn't who He said He was do you think His apostles would have died this way? For example...

Matthew, Suffered martyrdom in Ethiopia , killed by a sword wound.

Mark, Died in Alexandria , Egypt , after being dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.

Luke was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.

John, Faced martyrdom when he was boiled in huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos. He wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation on Patmos . The apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as Bishop of Edessa in modern Turkey. He died as an old man, the only apostle to die peacefully.

Peter was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross. According to church tradition it was because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die in the same way that Jesus Christ had died.

James, Just The leader of the church in Jerusalem , was thrown over a hundred feet down from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.

James the Great, son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem . The Roman officer who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.

Bartholomew also known as Nathaniel Was a missionary to Asia . He witnessed for our Lord in present day Turkey . Bartholomew was martyred for his preaching in Armenia where he was flayed to death by a whip.

Andrew was crucified on an x-shaped cross in Patras , Greece . After being whipped severely by seven soldiers they tied his body to the cross with cords to prolong his agony. His followers reported that, when he was led toward the cross, Andrew saluted it in these words: "I have long desired and expected this happy hour. The cross has been consecrated by the body of Christ hanging on it." He continued to preach to his tormentors for two days until he expired.

Thomas Was stabbed with a spear in India during one of his missionary trips to establish the church in the sub-continent.

Jude, Was killed with arrows when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. [3]

Etc. etc. Please watch the video, [2], and you all will get a better understanding of Jesus and why I believe He is/was the Messiah.

I feel that I have rebutted all your arguments and made my position clear as well, so I thank my opponent for an interesting round and look forward to the next.

SOURCES
[1] http://www.biblegateway.com...
[2] https://www.youtube.com...
[3] http://www.facebook.com...
[4] http://realmessiah.com...
[5] http://www.lds.org...
Debate Round No. 2
YaHey

Con

Paragraph One: Your phrasing of the situation is a tad dishonest. Judaism isn't "We'd rather die than confess the name of Jesus." It's "We don't accept Jesus and await our real Saviour." You say it like they adamantly refuse 2+2=4. Also, I don't think you get any points for dying for you faith, but I will say more on that when I get to your disciple argument.

Again, more unfair phrasing. Judaism says "We have many Messiahs but we await the final Messiah." By the way, nowhere in the Hebrew Bible does it say the Saviour will die and come again.

Both of these religions are based on the same God with a disagreement on the rules and the second installment. Both of these have traditions, and if anything Christianity has more traditions based on man than God. Nowhere in the Bible do we hear about a Pope, the idea of Purgatory has come and gone based on what the humans believed, and there are around 33,000 denominations of Christianity, so it seems you guys aren't too sure what the Big Man even thinks.

People convert to and fro from Christianity, so unless we are going for a no-true-Scotsman fallacy, Scripture isn't very consistent in its path making. I don't know if you take a literal viewing to Scripture, but there is a lot that the Bible gets wrong, like the Earth is flat [1] [2] [3], the Earth is 6,000-10,000 years old [4], and the Sun revolves around the Earth [5]. So either the Bible is meant metaphorically and not literally, however if this is so then there was no original sin and Jesus isn't needed to save us after all.

Paragraph Two: I discarded the third definition because it talks about a Messiah, not the Messiah.

Paragraph Three: Yeah, I'm entirely sure if this counts as a rebuttal. You say that "much are fulfilled in the New Testament" but give no examples, so I guess we are taking this on faith. You know what they say, claims asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. Then you talk about MP fulfilled in the Old Testament, though I am not entirely sure why.

Paragraph Four: Another claim without evidence. You say something about Jesus being more logical, but you don't even try to support this.

Death of the Disciples: The Aztecs [6], Mayans [7], Canaanites, Etruscans, Celts, Romans, Minoans, Gauls, Carthaginians, Scythian, Chimus [8], and more have all had human sacrifices. In fact, over 490,000 Southerners were killed, wounded, or captured in the Civil War [9], but I am think we can say their cause wasn't exactly just. As it turns out, dying for your cause doesn't make you right. It just makes you, well, dead.

In conclusion: You didn't refute any of my arguments, really, just dismissed them for some arbitrary reason not even mentioned. You didn't give example of MP fulfilled by Jesus, why the six prophecies I listed are unimportant or fulfilled, or an adequate reason why one should care for the fate of the Disciples, or even a real reason for believing Jesus to be the True Messiah other than some logical reasoning you failed to share with us.

I await your response.

Sources:

[1] http://biblehub.com...

[2] http://biblehub.com...

[3] http://biblehub.com...

[4] http://www.godandscience.org...

[5] http://biblehub.com...

[6] http://www.aztec-history.com...

[7] http://latinamericanhistory.about.com...

[8] http://www.sciencechannel.com...

[9] http://www.civilwar.org...

JasperFrancisShickadance

Pro

I am going to rebuild my arguments and rebut yours, although you really only tried to rebut mine and didn't give any reasoning for your case (argument).

Your first paragraph: It doesn't seem like you know what I'm trying to do here. My job is to prove how Jesus is the Messiah, and to make that position clearer I have shown the logical reasons that the Christian faith believes He is our Savior.

"By the way, nowhere in the Hebrew Bible does it say the Savior will die and come again." That is not true at all:
Jesus said: Luke 13:32 "Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today [Fri] and tomorrow [Sat], and the third day [Sun] I reach My goal."

God said to Moses: "Go to the people and consecrate them today [Mon] and tomorrow [Tues], and let them wash their garments; and let them be ready for the third day [Wed], for on the third day the Lord will come down on Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people." Exodus 19:10-11 [1]

"Both of these religions are based on the same God with a disagreement on the rules and the second installment. Both of these have traditions, and if anything Christianity has more traditions based on man than God. Nowhere in the Bible do we hear about a Pope, the idea of Purgatory has come and gone based on what the humans believed, and there are around 33,000 denominations of Christianity, so it seems you guys aren't too sure what the Big Man even thinks."
My opponent sounds as if he's Jewish, but if he's not he's obviously atheist but I can't quite tell according to his arguments. To debunk his paragraph here I'll assume he's talking about Judaism and Christianity. First, I ask my opponent, what do you mean by the second installment? He has shown no proof that Christianity has more traditions based on man rather than God. And I do not know what the Pope, and Purgatory have to do with this debate. What the 'Big Man thinks' is not our perception and is impossible to know because of the very fact that ALL CHRISTIANS believe that Our God is infinite, omniscient, and all-loving...unlike us.

"People convert to and fro from Christianity, so unless we are going for a no-true-Scotsman fallacy, Scripture isn't very consistent in its path making."
It is not Scripture's fault that many klutzy humans, who make mistakes, turn away from God and/or the Bible and perhaps convert to a different religion. It's just that many people misunderstand the Bible's verses and truth, and sometimes it is very frustrating trying to figure it out. I don't see what this has to do with anything, either.

"...but there is a lot that the Bible gets wrong, like the Earth is flat, the Earth is 6,000-10,000 years old, and the Sun revolves around the Earth."
Yes, I take the whole Bible literally because it is the living Word of God. I'm not going to refute all those claims here, but take a look at these websites which explain it all: [2] [3] [4]

You asked. Here they are. Prophesies fulfilled:
#1 Messiah would be born of a woman. See Gen. 3:15, then Matt 1:20 and Gal. 4:4
#2 Messiah would be born in Bethlehem. See Mic. 5:2, then Matt. 2:1 and Luke 2:4-6
#3 Messiah would be born of a virgin. See Isaiah 7:14, then Matt. 1:22
#4 Messiah would come from the line of Abraham. See Genesis 12:3 and Gen 22:18, then Matt 1:1 and Rom 9:5
#5 Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. See Gen 17:19 and Genesis 21:12, then Luke 3:34
#6 Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. See Numbers 24:17, then Matthew 1:2
#7 Messiah would be heir to King David's throne. See 2 Samuel 7:12-13 and Isaiah 9:7, then Luke 1:32-33 and Romans 1:3
#8 Messiah would spend a season in Egypt. See Hosea 11:1, then Matthew 2:14-15
#9 A massacre of children would happen at Messiah's birthplace. Jeremiah 31:15, Matthew 2:16-18
#10 Messiah would be forsaken by God. Psalm 22:1, Matthew 27:46
There are many, many more, but these are what my opponent asked for so I gave him a few examples. [6]

He also asked why I say that Jesus, as the Messiah, is logical when saying he paid for our sins.

One more new argument: There is an abundant amount of proof for Jesus' Resurrection. [7]

-The Empty Tomb of Jesus

-The holy women eyewitnesses are further proof that the Gospels are accurate historical records. If the accounts had been made up, no ancient author would have used women for witnesses to Christ's resurrection.

-Jesus' Apostles' New-Found Courage

-Changed Lives of James and Others

-A large crowd of more than 500 eyewitnesses saw the risen Jesus Christ at the same time. The Apostle Paul records this event in 1 Corinthians 15:6.

-Conversion of Paul

-Countless people have died for Jesus, absolutely certain that the resurrection of Christ is an historical fact.

My conclusion for this round is that 1) I have refuted all my opponent's statements, and 2) he has wrongly accused me of bad arguments which, if I did in the last round, I made up for here. In the final round I will give refute my opponent's 6 prophesies are "unimportant" as he wanted me to do.

NOTE. Over half of my opponent's sources in each round are for when he looked up Bible verses on the Internet. Just know that the reason I don't give that many sources is because I look them up the verses I need in an actual, authentic Bible.

Thank you and good luck to my opponent.

SOURCES
[1] http://www.bible.ca...
[2] http://creation.com...
[3] http://www.apologeticspress.org...
[4] http://answersingenesis.org...
[5] http://christianity.about.com...
[6] http://christianity.about.com...
[7] http://christianity.about.com...
Debate Round No. 3
YaHey

Con

I only tried to refute yours because, as I demonstrated, your refutations were faulty at best. And since you have chosen to wait in refuting my six prophecies, I don't really see that I need to build my case further. Which is quite the disappointment, but just for fun, here's a website for MORE unfulfilled Messianic Prophecy.
http://christianthinktank.com...

My first paragraph was to show the flaws in your reasoning.

The debate title clearly demonstrates that we are talking about whether or not the Old Testament says Jesus is the Messiah, so the New Testament, which goes off the assumption that yes Jesus is the Messiah and also isn't the Old Testament, is kind of not important.

So God is the Messiah?

I am an atheist. The second installment is the New Testament. The Pope and Purgatory are beliefs or traditions of the Christian faith that are NOT found in the Bible. You say you can't know what God wants, but isn't that the very purpose of the Bible? Isn't that the foundation for your belief that gay marriage is bad?

Unfortunately, that second link is for what the church taught, which isn't the same as what the Bible says. The Church also now accepts evolution, although you wont see it in the Bible. I believe one of the verses I gave was about the tree that could be seen from every place on the Earth, which is impossible on a round Earth.

Unfortunately, that third link is about what the church taught, not what the Bible says. It even admits the Bible taught geocentrism.

http://www.talkorigins.org...

#1: Wow born of a woman, I guess every person that has even existed fulfills this prophecy.
#3: Isaiah says that the child will be called Immanuel. So maybe we should worship him. If you would read my link, "young virgin" could just mean "young woman [1]."
#4:Genealogy in the Bible is passed down from father to son, and Jesus didn't have a birth father. Number three contradicts with number four.
#5: Same response.
#6: Same response.
#7: Same response.
#8: God is most likely talking about Israel, not Jesus.
#10: It seems contradictory to be the chosen one to save the world but also to be forsaken by God.

I think you tried to respond to my question, but I also don't see where you actually responded to how it is logical other than just saying it is.

Most books of the Bible are by anonymous writers after the death of Jesus. There are contradictions in what the writers say happened [2]. People converting to and out of a religion is not evidence for the truth of whatever religion they converted to. Certainty does NOT mean you are right. Changed lives does NOT mean you are right. These witnesses only appear in the Bible. Jesus Christ, again? Dying for a cause does NOT MAKE YOU RIGHT. It makes you DEAD.

Bible Website: So you gripe me on using a website of bible verses. Smugness aside, I tried to use a website that listed all the different versions of the Bible, since there are so many. Seeing as this is a debate about the legitimacy of Jesus' claim of being the Messiah, and not which version of the Bible is most correct, I thought it best to not just list a verse. If this has offended all true Bible lovers out there that need real, authentic, outdated paper to understand the word of God in a world where computers are already the norm.

Thanks.

Sources:

[1] https://www.biblegateway.com...

[2] http://atheism.about.com...

JasperFrancisShickadance

Pro

The only reason I didn't refute your "six prophesies" in these rounds was because I wanted to keep them short, but I will do it here. I realize now that you can't try to refute my rebuttals, but that kind of thing could go on forever!

Let me explain to you--yet again--how the Old Testament does not matter when conversing the story of the Messiah, even in this debate, because the title is obviously not about prophesies. Before that, I need my opponent to know how the Christian Messiah is Jesus and the birth of Jesus does not happen until the New Testament. The OT can prove how Jesus is the Messiah through prophesies, and that's how Jesus can be proven through in that section of the Biblical artifact.

God is the Messiah, yes, because of the Trinity. John 10:30 says that Jesus said "I and the Father are one." If this is not proof enough, then Philippians 2:5-8 says "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

I do not see what my opponent means by 'the church.' I don't know about you, but I think its very ignorant and wrong to accuse a church, wherever that may be and whatever this church is, of what "it" teaches and what it says about the age of the earth. This is irrelevant to anything. The link he gave said nothing about the Church, instead it was all on the topic of the Big Bang. The Origin of Life is a completely different debate topic so I will not further argue this odd subject my opponent came up with. Sorry but it's true, none of what he said was relevant to this matter.

Rebuttals for my opponents #'s:
"Wow born of a woman, I guess every person that has even existed fulfills this prophecy."
Anybody would say that it's not evident that the real, perfect Savior/Messiah came as a real human, born into the earth as ANY normal human would (in case you didn't realize, Jesus isn't quite what you'd call normal).

My opponent didn't say anything for #2.

"Isaiah says that the child will be called Immanuel. So maybe we should worship him. If you would read my link, 'young virgin' could just mean 'young woman."'
Immanuel is a symbolic name which appears in chapters 7 and 8 of the Book of Isaiah as part of a prophecy assuring king Ahaz of Judah of God's protection against enemy kings; it is quoted in the Gospel of Matthew as a sign verifying the divine status of Jesus. [1]

"Genealogy in the Bible is passed down from father to son, and Jesus didn't have a birth father. Number three contradicts with number four."
First off, Jesus has two Fathers (as do we), and those are the birth/earthly dad and the Heavenly Father who is God. Secondly how does #3-4 contradict each other?! I don't see in what way.

My opponent didn't give any points for #5, #6, #7.

When you look up in the Bible the verses in Hosea and Matthew which prove where the Messiah would be, it is clear God wasn't saying that Israel would stay in Egypt, as my opponent claims.

No response for #9.

"It seems contradictory to be the chosen one to save the world but also to be forsaken by God."
The actual idea of the love, forgiveness, and mercy God shows through sending His very Son to die is almost unbelievable (and an amazing love story) but in no way is it contradictory! God chose Jesus to save the world, and the way that our Messiah saved us was when God had to turn away and forsake Jesus. The forsaking was part of the plan, and God did it because He is holy and the unholy sin was brought as a burden off of our shoulders and onto Jesus' back.

Some things don't need explanations because it is obvious. But I can see how an atheist would say "...most books of the Bible are by anonymous writers after the death of Jesus. There are contradictions in what the writers say happened." My refutation is that all Scripture is inspired by God and we can know that with the personality and things God and His saints/disciples say throughout the Bible.

"Changed lives does NOT mean you are right." If I converted you, wouldn't it prove something? There are so many stories out there of atheists, if not militant, who get converted--is this just because they gave in or gave up? No, some say it's the Holy Spirit...some get converted because of the amount of evidence there is for a Creator and the logic behind it. [2] [3]

I didn't gripe you on websites of bible verses! I only made a point that if the voters are planning on giving a few points to Con for "more sources," most of the sources he/she gave were from BibleHub or BibleGateway, etc. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Now for the well-awaited refutations of my opponent's six supposed requirements for a Messiah!

"1. Must be a member of the tribe Judah and a descendant of King David and Solomon. If Jesus was the result of a virgin birth, how can he be a descendant of David and Solomon?"
When Jesus came into the world, he was not a newly created individual such as we are, but was rather the eternal Son of God. To be born into this world of the virgin Mary required divine intervention, and this is exactly what the gospels record. Jesus is a descendant of David, I do not wish to present more evidence as I have given proof throughout this entire debate. See the video at top.

"2. Ingathering of the Jews...I have a cousin who is a Jew and she lives in the US." My opponent then gives sources for the Bible: Deuteronomy 30:3 has nothing to do with ingathering of Jews. I have nothing to rebut here.

"3. Rebuilding of the Jewish Temple. The temple was destroyed 38 years after Jesus' death and has not yet been rebuilt...Jesus didn't rebuild the temple as it wasn't demolished yet."
John 2:19. [4]

"4. World wide peace. [9]. I don't think this one needs commenting on." Where is this a requirement for the Messiah? My opponent says Micah 4 is evidence for that statement. If anyone looks closely, it says that 'IN HTE LAST DAYS nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.' It doesn't have to do with Jesus' life!

"5. Observance of the Torah embraced by all Jews. Messianic "Jews" are "Jews" that do not follow the Torah, just for example."
I'd like to see another example. Again, the Bible doesn't say anything about al Jews embracing the Torah!

"Everyone will worship the true God. There are around 19 major religions."
How is this a prophesy the Messiah had to fulfill? Yes there are many religions, but not in Jesus' time.

These are all totally fake reasons my opponent tried to show Jesus didn't fulfill the prophesies of the Old Testament, therefore I win best argument points! Not that this is all about winning. Still, my opponent gave no good reasons why Jesus is not the Messiah according to the Old Testament.

Thank you for a great debate.

SOURCES
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org...
[2] http://www.reddit.com...
[3] http://www.doesgodexist.org...
[4] http://biblehub.com...
[5] http://www.revelations.org.za...
Debate Round No. 4
3 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 3 records.
Posted by Owl099 3 years ago
Owl099
I am really sorry but I can't vote at the moment. I have not filled in the information, but I will ask someone else to vote if you would like.
Posted by YaHey 3 years ago
YaHey
1) I explained why my sources were from the same site and better than just using the Bible.
2) The debate was to see if the Old Testament confirms Jesus as the Messiah. I thought that was obvious.
3) Please stop shaking down people to get votes.
Posted by JasperFrancisShickadance 3 years ago
JasperFrancisShickadance
LordEnglish, I explained in the debate how 1) over half of Con's sources were of the same sites: biblehub and biblegateway, etc, and 2) I was only showing why my arguments were better fit for the debate because the title itself was a bit screwed up. Your vote proved you did not quite read the debate before voting.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by Truth_seeker 3 years ago
Truth_seeker
YaHeyJasperFrancisShickadanceTied
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Total points awarded:15 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro started off bad and should've proven Jesus divinity by pointing to messianic scriptures as con was taking the upper hand, but at the last few rounds, con started to drift away from the topic at hand while pro responded accordingly to the messianic prophesies.
Vote Placed by MrJosh 3 years ago
MrJosh
YaHeyJasperFrancisShickadanceTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Arguments because PRO never really made a case about the resolution; Sources because CON offered sources to back up his points, while PRO offered a few sources to back up a few of his/her points.
Vote Placed by LordEnglish 3 years ago
LordEnglish
YaHeyJasperFrancisShickadanceTied
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Total points awarded:60 
Reasons for voting decision: Sources, pro used one, con used many. And as for conduct, I was put off by pro saying, "...therefore I win best argument points!" and things of the like. It seemed like pro was taunting con, who stayed professional through out the debate.
Vote Placed by mishapqueen 3 years ago
mishapqueen
YaHeyJasperFrancisShickadanceTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Both didn't really do a great job refuting arguments and were like ships passing in the night. Finally Pro seemed to refute Con in the last post. But other than that, they are essentially tied.
Vote Placed by Phoenix61397 3 years ago
Phoenix61397
YaHeyJasperFrancisShickadanceTied
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Total points awarded:30 
Reasons for voting decision: For pro to win, she needed to use both O.T. and N.T. sources and draw the parallels. In her rebuttals, she only really used N.T. Sources, so although she showed that Christans believe Jesus is the Messiah, she didn't show how He correlated with the O.T. descriptions of Messiah. BoP not quite filled by pro, so con gets it.