The Instigator
Chelicerae
Pro (for)
Losing
7 Points
The Contender
Mr
Con (against)
Winning
13 Points

Adolf Hitler was a Christian

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Post Voting Period
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after 5 votes the winner is...
Mr
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/5/2012 Category: Religion
Updated: 5 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 2,800 times Debate No: 24592
Debate Rounds (5)
Comments (8)
Votes (5)

 

Chelicerae

Pro

The first round is for acceptance.
Debate Round No. 1
Chelicerae

Pro

My opponent has taken the contrary position to the claim that 'Adolf Hitler was a Christian'. As the instigator, it is my job to prove that Pro is true. I will do so by using public and private statements of Adolf Hitler, and historical facts about the Nazi regime.

#1: Quotes from Mein Kampf

- In Volume 1 Chapter 2, Hitler wrote: 'I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.'

- In Volume 1 Chapter 5, Hitler wrote: 'Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. '

- In Volume 1 Chapter 8, Hitler wrote: 'What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator.'

- In Volume 2 Chapter 1, Hitler wrote: 'Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise.'

- In Volume 2 Chapter 2, Hitler wrote: 'It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.'

- In Volume 2 Chapter 2, Hitler wrote: 'It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions.'

Source: http://www.hitler.org...

#2 Quotes from Adolf Hitler

- "National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic' political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men." -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938.

- '"We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out." -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

- 'My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922'

The Catholic Church should not deceive herself: if National Socialism does not succeed in defeating Bolshevism, then Church and Christianity in Europe too are finished. Bolshevism is the mortal enemy of the Church as much as of Fascism. ...Man cannot exist without belief in God. The soldier who for three and four days lies under intense bombardment needs a religious prop.

#3 Actions of the Nazi Regime

- Adolf Hitler took many far-right social views that sound like something that could be found in the Bible. Adolf Hitler persecuted homosexuals, and they were one of the largest victims of the holocaust. Adolf Hitler even banned abortion, and the death penalty was even given for Aryan women if they were caught.

Sources: http://www.homocaust.org..., http://en.wikipedia.org...

- Every soldier in the German army wore a belt buckle saying 'God Mit Uns', or 'God With us'.

- German troops were often forced to get sprinkled with holy water and listen to a sermon by a Catholic priest before going out on a maneuver.

- Hitler's German Worker's Party, the obsolete form of the Nazi Party, had a twenty-five point program. Point #24was: 'We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession..."

- The first treaty signed by the Nazi government was with the Vatican Church. To this, Hitler wrote: 'The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie." -Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933

# 4 Conclusion

The following quotations of public and private quotes, writings, and historical actions prove beyond a doubt that Adolf Hitler was a Christian. In order to further his point, Con must refute all of these quotes, and in their place substitute his own arguments.

Thank you for accepting.
Mr

Con

Thank you for letting me accept this debate

let me provide a free dictionary complimentary of me, myself

Christ-ian;[kris-chuhn]
adjective
exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity

Now before I start I must mention the fact that it seems as though there is absolutely no way in the entire universe to prove he was a Christian unless you are God himself. It seems as though you need to rephrase the debate topic my personal opinion (Adolf Hitler was most likely a christian). But being a good sport that I am I will continue the debate treating it as if you had rephrased it.

Hitler did say some Christian like things in his campaign speeches, of course he did. He would have been foolish to say "I am evil and I want to destroy society and launch us into a two front war we can't win, vote for me." for example. Atheists naively assume everyone can trust his campaign speeches just as we would his personal diary, but most of us know you can't trust anything a politician says in a campaign! In the 1930's voters in major Western countries expected Christian candidates even more than they do now.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler contradicting most if not all of your quotes
from my source

"Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...The only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity. "

21st October, 1941, midday:

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work... For the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, (@#$%*)? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St. Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:"

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:
"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity "(p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... Behold ." (p 278)""

""As an example of Hitler's honesty,
consider the following from a letter by Hitler to the French fascist Herv� and
published in the Nazi V�lkischer Beobachter on October 26, 1930 (Heiden, Der Fuehrer, p. 414)" :

"I think I can assure you that there is no one in Germany who will not with all his heart approve any honest attempt at an improvement of relations between Germany and France. My own feelings force me to take the same attitude... The German people has the solemn intention of living in peace and friendship with all civilized nations and powers... And I regard the maintenance of peace in Europe as especially desirable and at the same time secured, if France and Germany, on the basis of equal sharing of natural human rights, arrive at a real inner understanding... The young Germany, that is led by me and that finds its expression in the National Socialist Movement, has only the most heartfelt desire for an understanding with other European nations.""

Obviously he was lying no doubt about it, as you can tell, here's an even bigger lie.

In a similar vein, consider this, from a speech in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1939: "Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration: 1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views, nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted..."

He said nobody will be going to persecuted for his/her religious views in Germany? Its' well documented that Hitler persecuted many religious groups for their views, including Protestants, and Catholics.

A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates how the attitude was instilled in his youth

"We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel, Away with incense and Holy Water, The Church can go hang for all we care, The Swastika brings salvation on Earth."

See as you can tell he was most likely not a Christian, just look at his actions does that not clue you enough?

Please continue the debate and I am eager to see your response.

thank you.

My sources.
http://www.doxa.ws...
http://www.doxa.ws...
http://dictionary.reference.com...
Debate Round No. 2
Chelicerae

Pro

'Hitler did say some Christian like things in his campaign speeches, of course he did. He would have been foolish to say "I am evil and I want to destroy society and launch us into a two front war we can't win, vote for me." for example.'
Mr

Con

My opponent seems as though he choked at the words of my rebuttal

definition of choke I'm referring to

choke;[chohk] , choked, chok�ing, noun
to stop by or as if by strangling or stifling: The sudden wind choked his words.

I extend my arguments to this round as my opponent simply made a mistake and hasn't negated mine yet.

As I said I am kind of eager to see your response

http://dictionary.reference.com...
Debate Round No. 3
Chelicerae

Pro

The notion that I choked is just silly. Unless, of course, you define choking as pressing some wrong buttons. To explain what happened, I ted my argument too early because I thought I had pasted it. Anyways, here it is.

#1: Anti-Christian quotes are faked

There are two versions the original German table-talk. One edited by Martin Bormann called the Bormann Vermerke ("Bormann Notes") which, until 1980, existed only in the collection of Francois Genoud. The other version came from Picker who got is copy from Heim and then added his own entries. According to Richard C. Carrier, "the Bormann Vermerke also contains entries made by Bormann, and presumably Heim, during the period covered by Picker's text, which are inexplicably not found in his copy. There is also supposed to be a third copy, which Bormann forwarded to an office in M�nich, but it was lost (most likely destroyed by Allied bombs)."

Picker's edition has the strongest claim to authenticity because it contains the actual German, has the support of eyewitness testimony and has scholarly backing. Next in authority is the scholarly work of Werner Jochmann who published the German of the Bormann Vermerke in 1980 (which Trevor-Roper, et al, used from Genoud's French translation). The German versions of the talk do not include the anti-Christian quotes.

The English version endorsed by Trevor-Roper (and everyone else) contains the fabrications. These lies come, verbatim, from the translation of Genoud's French!

In a related fakery, the alleged document of Hitler's Last Testament (supposedly a part of the table-talk), Genoud gave David Irving, a World War II historian, a copy of the complete typescript manuscript. Every page was "heavily amended and expanded in somebody's hand-writing." Genoud admitted it was his own, and later admitted to Irving that the entire typescript was his own confection saying, "But it is just what Hitler would have said, isn't it?" In other words, Hitler's Last Testament was a fake.

#2: Nowhere does Hitler denounce Jesus or his Christianity

- If one is to use the Table-Talk as evidence against Hitler's Christianity, then where does it appear? Nowhere in the conversations of Table-Talk, does Hitler denounce his Christianity or Jesus.

- The quotes provided (that aren't forgeries) only tried to show that the Church form of Christianity produced lies. Whenever Adolf Hitler mentions Jesus Christ, he has nothing but positive things to say about him:

' Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism the destroyer. Nevertheless, the Galilean, who later was called Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who too up His position against Jewry. Galilee was a colony where the Romans had probably installed Gallic legionaries, and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a whore-- of a whore and a Roman soldier.

The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work with subtlety and for purposes of personal exploitation. For the Galiean's object was to liberate His country from Jewish oppression. He set Himself against Jewish capitalism, and that's why the Jews liquidated Him. -Hitler [Table-Talk, p. 76] '

'Christ was an Aryan, and St. Paul used his doctrine to mobilise the criminal underworld and thus organise a proto-Bolsevism. -Hitler [Table-Talk, p. 143] '

- If the fact that Hitler spoke against religion means he's not a Christian, then the most famous people of the church shouldn't be either.

'The papacy is truly the real power and tyranny of the Antichrist.... As beautiful as it was to keep a state of virginity, in the early days of Christianity, so abominable has it now become, when it is used as a means of eliciting Christ's help and grace.' -Martin Luther (Luther's Confession, March 1528)

'We maintain that the government of the Church was converted into a species of foul and insufferable tyranny. -John Calvin (The Necessity of Reforming the Church, 1544)

There also numerous anti-atheist quotes found in the book:

'We don't want to educate anyone in atheism.' Table-Talk [p. 6]

'An uneducated man, on the other hand, runs the risk of going over to atheism (which is a return to the state of the animal)...' Table-Talk [p. 59]

And a quote from Albert Speer is very convincing:
'Even after 1942 Hitler went on maintaining that he regarded the church as indispensable in political life. He would be happy, he said in one of those teatime talks at Obersalzberg, if someday a prominent churchman turned up who was suited to lead one of the churches- or if possible both the Catholic and Protestant churches reunited. He still regretted that Reich Bishop Muller was not the right man to carry out his far-reaching plans. But he sharply condemned the campaign against the church, calling it a crime against the future of the nation. For it was impossible, he said, to replace the church by any party ideology. [Speer, p. 95] (bold characters, mine)'

If Con would like to use Table Talk as evidence of Hitler's lack of faith, can he explain these quotes?

#3: The book reflects things that did not occur

In the Secret Conversations with Hitler, two recently discovered confidential interviews were given by Richard Breiting in 1931. Breiting was a member of the German People's Party. In these conversations, (which were actually more private than the Table-Talk), Hitler reveals his aims and plans. Like the Table-Talk, the notes were taken in short-hand. Unlike the Table-Talk, which Hitler knew would later be revealed, Hitler was assured that his statements would be kept secret. [Calic, p.11] Moreover, the Secret Conversations were authenticated as written solely by Breiting (unlike the editing by Bormann). Yet nowhere in these conversations does Hitler denounce religion. On the contrary, Hitler mentions a conciliation with Roman and German Catholicism where "people like von Papen and many others are establishing good relations with the Vatican."

In Hitler-- Memoirs of a Confidant, Hitler reveals himself through conversation to colleagues from a conference on economic policy. In it Hitler is reported to have spoken, glowingly, about raising the "treasures of the living Christ," "the persecution of the true Christians and sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man and to turn away from the anti-Christian , smug individualism of the past," and "to educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers!" [Turner, Ch. 23]

Nowhere in the Memoirs do we find a Bormann-like anti-Christian statements as found in the Table-Talk.

#4: A few notes

- My opponent acts as if only atheists can believe Hittler was a Christian. Not only is this false, but even if it were true, it has nothing to do with the truth of the subject.

- My opponent did not refute my quotes.

#5: Sources

Calic, Edouard, Ed., "Secret Conversations With Hitler," The John Day Company

Carrier, Richard C. "On the Trail of Bogus Quotes"

Helmreich, Ernst Christian, "The German Churches Under Hitler," Wayne State University Press, 1979

Speer, Albert, "Inside the Third Reich: Memoirs by Albert Speer," Galahad Books, 1970

Toland, John, "Adolf Hitler," Anchor Books, Doubleday, 1976

Trevor-Roper, H.R. [Introduction], "Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Redwood Press, Ltd., 1953

Turner, Jr., Henry Ashby, "Hitler-- Memoirs of a Confidant," Yale University Press, 1978

VonLang, Jochen, "The Secretary Martin Bormann: The Man Who Manipulated Hitler," Random House, 1979
Mr

Con

The German versions of the talk do not include the anti-Christian quotes." The reason behind this is because most if not all the quotes I excerpted are private statements Hitler made. But if you still are not convinced take a look at one of Hitler's quotes that is definitely not (faked) that you claim.

"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12)

Also most of your arguments such as

"... Hitler wrote: 'It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.'"

Do not specifically mention Christianity but rather a being or god or even a creator.

More evidence concerning my argument ad yours.
"Five days after becoming Chancellor in 1933, Hitler allowed a sterilization law to pass, and had the Catholic Youth League disbanded (Shirer, The Rise). The latter was a measure applied to other youth organizations too, in order to free up young people to join the Hitler Youth. At the same time, Hitler also made an agreement with the Vatican to allow the Catholic Church to regulate its own affairs. (It is probably worth noting here the low value that Hitler placed on written agreements.) Parents were pressured to take their children out of religious schools. When the Church organized voluntary out-of-hours religious classes, the Nazi government responded by banning state-employed teachers from taking part. The Crucifix symbol was even at one point banned from classrooms in one particular jurisdiction, Oldenburg, in 1936, but the measure met with fierce public resistance and was rescinded. Hitler remained conscious of the affection for the Church felt in some quarters of Germany, particularly Bavaria. Later on, though, a wartime metal shortage was used as the excuse for melting church bells (Richard Grunberger, The Twelve Year Reich, Henry Holt, Henry Holt, 1979 and Richard Grunberger, A Social History of the Third Reich, Penguin, 1991)."

"The only way to determine the real depth and earnestness of each of their faiths is to look at their walk -- does their actions support their profession of faith? While no one will perfectly walk the walk, certainly anyone... Can realize that a man who orders the death of millions of people and starts wars of aggression to meet his own thirst for power is not living anywhere close to consistent with the Biblical mandates."

I find the anyone who believes Hitler to have been a Christian is living in the heights of self-deception. He did occasionally claimed Christianity, but nothing in his life reflects a true belief in Jesus. I have never seen anything that suggests that Hitler continued to attend his church(church membership being something far different than being active in the church -- ask any pastor), or anything that suggests Hitler made himself accountable to a Pastor or Priest in anyway. In fact, his execution of Christian pastors, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, should be enough to convince anyone with half a brain that Adolf Hitler was not Christian.

http://christiancadre.blogspot.com...
http://christiancadre.blogspot.com...
Debate Round No. 4
Chelicerae

Pro

'The German versions of the talk do not include the anti-Christian quotes." The reason behind this is because most if not all the quotes I excerpted are private statements Hitler made. But if you still are not convinced take a look at one of Hitler's quotes that is definitely not (faked) that you claim.'

Here my opponent makes an important concession. He himself admits that the original version of Table Talk did not include the anti-christian quotes. Therefore, the only other solution is that Picker added those quotes. My opponent has negated the entirity of own argument by admitting this.

His excuse that the book is a private collection of Hitler's statements is not satisfactory. The entire book is a collection of Hitler's private statesments, so why wouldn't we expect to find the anti-christian quotes if they were ever said?

My opponent also claims that I stated the Hitler quotes were all faked. Not at all. I stated that the anti-Christian quotes from Table Talk were fake.

"To whom should propaganda be addressed? … It must be addressed always and exclusively to the masses… The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself … its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect… it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12)

If Mein Kampf is now a valid source, then what say you of the quotes provided in my opening statement? The fact that Hitler spoke warmly of propoganda, which anyone would expect, says nothing in regards to his private statements.

Also most of your arguments such as

"... Hitler wrote: 'It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god.'"

Do not specifically mention Christianity but rather a being or god or even a creator.

Here, my opponent also makes an important concession as well--that is, Hitler at least beleived in God. What does he say about this quotes, which remains unnegated?

'In Hitler-- Memoirs of a Confidant, Hitler reveals himself through conversation to colleagues from a conference on economic policy. In it Hitler is reported to have spoken, glowingly, about raising the "treasures of the living Christ," "the persecution of the true Christians and sanctimonious churches that have placed themselves between God and man and to turn away from the anti-Christian , smug individualism of the past," and "to educate the youth in particular in the spirit of those of Christ's words that we must interpret anew: love one another; be considerate of your fellow man; remember that each of you is not alone a creature of God, but that you are all brothers!" [Turner, Ch. 23]'

My opponent has yet to answer this quote. It shows that Hitler beleived in and had respect for Jesus Christ, and it showed that he did not like organized religion. This helps me a lot on the next point.




"Five days after becoming Chancellor in 1933, Hitler allowed a sterilization law to pass, and had the Catholic Youth League disbanded (Shirer, The Rise). The latter was a measure applied to other youth organizations too, in order to free up young people to join the Hitler Youth. At the same time, Hitler also made an agreement with the Vatican to allow the Catholic Church to regulate its own affairs. (It is probably worth noting here the low value that Hitler placed on written agreements.) Parents were pressured to take their children out of religious schools. When the Church organized voluntary out-of-hours religious classes, the Nazi government responded by banning state-employed teachers from taking part. The Crucifix symbol was even at one point banned from classrooms in one particular jurisdiction, Oldenburg, in 1936, but the measure met with fierce public resistance and was rescinded. Hitler remained conscious of the affection for the Church felt in some quarters of Germany, particularly Bavaria. Later on, though, a wartime metal shortage was used as the excuse for melting church bells (Richard Grunberger, The Twelve Year Reich, Henry Holt, Henry Holt, 1979 and Richard Grunberger, A Social History of the Third Reich, Penguin, 1991)."

I ask my opponent to read the quote I posted above. The only thing this quote proves is that Adolf Hitler hated organized religion, not religion itself. If he hated Christianity, why didn't he treat it the same way he treated the Jews?

"The only way to determine the real depth and earnestness of each of their faiths is to look at their walk -- does their actions support their profession of faith? While no one will perfectly walk the walk, certainly anyone... Can realize that a man who orders the death of millions of people and starts wars of aggression to meet his own thirst for power is not living anywhere close to consistent with the Biblical mandates."

Perhaps he was following the example of God in the Old Testament when he ordered the genocide of the Amalekites.

I find the anyone who believes Hitler to have been a Christian is living in the heights of self-deception. He did occasionally claimed Christianity, but nothing in his life reflects a true belief in Jesus. I have never seen anything that suggests that Hitler continued to attend his church(church membership being something far different than being active in the church -- ask any pastor), or anything that suggests Hitler made himself accountable to a Pastor or Priest in anyway.

At most, his lack of church attendan can be attributed to his dislike of organized religion. This does not prove he was not a Christian, because you would then have to say that everybody who doesn't go to church isn't a Christian.

In fact, his execution of Christian pastors, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, should be enough to convince anyone with half a brain that Adolf Hitler was not Christian.

Deotrich Bonhoeffer was killed by the Reich because he was involved in a plot to kill Adolf Hitller. He was not killed for his faith.

Notes
- My opponent did not refute the entrity of the quotes I have provided.

- My opponent has not refuted my claim that the anti-christian quotes were forgeries.

- My opponent has not refuted anti-atheist quotes in the book he uses a source.

- My opponent has used a Christian website as his source.

A pro vote should be obvious. Thank you.



Mr

Con

First off I would like to say I am appreciative of you continuing the debate, but one thing I'm not appreciative is of is your assumptions my friend.

My personal quote misinterpreted by my opponent.
"But if you still are not convinced take a look at one of Hitler's quotes that is definitely not (faked) that you claim"

Just to be sure I said if anything had no doubt at all, it would be the quote I presented. I did not state they were fake my self by any means. Now that, that is out of the way I can begin.

My opponent has not given me the source for the table talks therefore all that is said could be made up. My opponent insults my sources rather and he used Wikipedia, If not more than two other souces to compensate for his whole argument while mine are from a variety.

He hasn't proved that every single word that came out of Hitler's mouth is in the book, even private quotes which is highly unlikely,

Also I would like to state that a "god" and "God" could for all means be different.

"Perhaps he was following the example of God in the Old Testament when he ordered the genocide of the Amalekites."

Ugh... No, that statement is like saying Hitler had millions killed because he doesn't like their feet for example, their is just no proof behind the statement and highly unlikely you can prove to me he did something from the bible because you still haven't convinced me one bit that he was Christian at all to begin with.

Exactly as my opponent stated, and he assumes everybody that doesn't go to church hates organized religion without proof once again.
"At most, his lack of church attendan can be attributed to his dislike of organized religion. This does not prove he was not a Christian, because you would then have to say that everybody who doesn't go to church isn't a Christian."
(notice his spelling and errors)

And lastly my opponent states "A pro vote should be obvious.", the problem with this is you shouldn't have to tell the voters as it really should be obvious.

Thank you.

http://lukeford.net...
Debate Round No. 5
8 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 8 records.
Posted by Chelicerae 5 years ago
Chelicerae
I have to disagree with DanT. I accidentally ceded the third round, but I posted my arguments in the next round. Furthermore, my comments in regards to 'Table Talk' were never factually negated or disputed. Historian Richard Carrier states, "It is clear that Picker and Jochmann have the correct [German] text and Trevor-Roper's [English translation] is entirely untrustworthy."
Posted by AnalyticArizonan 5 years ago
AnalyticArizonan
Pro is going to have a real tough time as he has to fight against historical facts.
Posted by Chelicerae 5 years ago
Chelicerae
I have a counter-argument ready. I just accidentally pressed the submit button. If you'll just post something like 'Post to let my opponent reply', I would appreciate it.
Posted by Chelicerae 5 years ago
Chelicerae
That was a copy and paste fail.
Posted by AlwaysMoreThanYou 5 years ago
AlwaysMoreThanYou
Interesting resolution.
Posted by Mr 5 years ago
Mr
whoops getting a little too cocky i guess .
Posted by Chelicerae 5 years ago
Chelicerae
Twice the pride, double the fall.
Posted by Mr 5 years ago
Mr
5 rounds really? i think i can negate all of his arguments with simply one sentence.
5 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Vote Placed by Microsuck 5 years ago
Microsuck
CheliceraeMrTied
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Total points awarded:00 
Reasons for voting decision: neurtalizing counter vote bomb at request of airmax.
Vote Placed by cabio 5 years ago
cabio
CheliceraeMrTied
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Total points awarded:05 
Reasons for voting decision: I did agree with Con to begin with, as well as after. I feel Con has increased my belief. Both showed good conduct and language. Because my belief was reinforced and not cut back, Con was more convincing. Pro's evidence for the most part could be used for proof of Hitler holding to nearly any religion.
Vote Placed by happy-bread 5 years ago
happy-bread
CheliceraeMrTied
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Total points awarded:03 
Reasons for voting decision: Pro claimed that cons source was fake
Vote Placed by Wallstreetatheist 5 years ago
Wallstreetatheist
CheliceraeMrTied
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Total points awarded:51 
Reasons for voting decision: CONDUCT--Pro had a non-round, so conduct goes Con. ARGUMENTS--The wealth of evidence on this issue flows Pro, and he capitalized on that. He used advocations from Hitler in his famous book and from speeches, policies from merging Catholicism and state, and Nazi actions. Con dropped many of these points. SOURCES--Pro had more sources and better quality sources such as a variety of websites and books. Con used blogs as sources, which are low-quality and biased at best.
Vote Placed by DanT 5 years ago
DanT
CheliceraeMrTied
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Total points awarded:24 
Reasons for voting decision: In Pro's round 3 he seceded every point to Con for the round. Pro also makes assumptions about Con's sources being faked without providing a source to back it up. Con wins hands down.