Adolph Hitler was an Atheist
Debate Rounds (5)
Adolph Hitler, the leader of the Nazis during World War 2, was an Atheist during his time as the furer.
I will be "pro" in this debate, and it is my burden of proof to prove Adolph Hitler was an Atheist during this time.
It will be my opponent's BOP to prove Hitler was not an Atheist during his time as leader of Germany.
I believe we require definitions so here they are
Adolph Hitler:A German political leader of the twentieth century, born in Austria. Hitler's early program for Germany is contained in his book Mein Kampf.
Atheist: a disbelief in the existence of deity.
I will be arguing that Hitler was not an atheist, but a theist.
Theist: belief in the existence of a god or gods.
Firstly, Hitler said many things highly indicative of a theist.
"Besides that, I believe one thing: there is a Lord God! And this Lord God creates the peoples." (Hitler)
Max Domarus & Patrick Romane. The Essential Hitler: Speeches and Commentary. Bolchazy-Carducci. (2007). P. 499.
"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations; we have stamped it out" (Hitler)
Speech in Berlin. October 24, 1933
This next quote is most damning against your argument.
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God"s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice"For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." (Hitler)
Norman H. Baynes. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler. Vol.1. Oxford University Press (1942). pp. 19-20.
The list goes on however there are more than speeches that show that Hitler was a theist. Such as the fact that his soldiers all wore the slogan, "Gott Mit Uns" (God with us) on their belts, that his birthday was "celebrated from the pulpits until his death," as Hitchens so eloquently put it, and another most erie point is that the Nazis published their own slightly revised Christian bible. Susannah Heschel. The Aryan Jesus: Christian Theologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany. Princeton University Press. (2008) Chapter 3: Projects of the Institute.
I believe it is obvious that Hitler was indeed a theist, and although his thoughts on christianity may have been twisted indeed, does not play a role in this debate. Thus from the facts I have presented Hitler was a theist. I look forward to my opponents response.
No, self-avowed atheist can realisticaly become President in this day and age in the U.S.A. This is why Presidents always claim God, hold babies, and kiss these same babies. The same was true in Germany at this point in history.
Here is an interview of Richard Dawkins saying that JFK was an Atheist and Barack Obama is an Atheist, implying political leaders have to claim some sense of religiosity to get elected in a democratic, predominantly Christian nation.
Hitler did make claims of God, Christianity, etc early in his leadership role, but once he had full control of Germany, his stance changed. Suddenly he was anti Christian, took control of the churches, became a drug addict, renounced Christianity in private as well, and began doing nonChristian things, like burning people in furnaces. "Thou shalt not kill" states the Bible. Hitler was responsible for the killing of millions.
I offer a video called "God and Hitler".
“…the only way of getting rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 61
“It’s Christianity that’s the liar. It’s in perpetual conflict with itself.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 61
“In the long run, National Socialism and religion will no longer be able to exist together.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 6
“Kerrl, with the noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don’t believe the thing’s possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 145
“As far as we are concerned, we’ve succeeded in chasing the Jews from our midst and excluding Christianity from our political life.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 394
“There is something very unhealthy about Christianity.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 418
“The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity. Christianity is a prototype of Bolshevism: the mobilisation by the Jew of the masses of slaves with the object of undermining society. Thus one understands that the healthy elements of the Roman world were proof against this doctrine.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 75-76
“When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let’s be the only people who are immunised against the disease.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 145
“Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity. It will last another hundred years, two hundred years perhaps. My regret will have been that I couldn’t, like whoever the prophet was, behold the promised land from afar. We are entering into a conception of the world that will be a sunny era, an era of tolerance.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 343-344
First of all burden of proof lies on you to show considerable proof that Hitler was an atheist. All I have to do to win is rebut said arguments. Capisce?
So all your arguments are based around is Hitler was against Christianity. This does not show he wasn't an atheist as many people today don't accept Christ as the savior. Such as the Jews. http://www.aish.com...
There is quite a difference between Christianity and theism.
Christianity: the religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices. https://www.google.ca...
Theism:belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.
It is impossible to prove without a doubt whether or not Hitler was a theist or not, but I believe that I can provide substantial evidence supporting Hitler as a theist.
1. The speeches Hitler made that I shown round one. While my opponent states those were before he ran as leader I beg to differ and say some of those speeches were made when he was leader. http://www.nobeliefs.com...
2. Documents show "Hitlers table talk" was forged or warped to make Hitler seem like an atheist.http://www.nobeliefs.com...
Therefore making your arguments invalid. Thus supporting me in claiming Hitler as a theist.
3. Hitler reportedly worshiped foreign Gods as well. http://www.abc.net.au...
I find your video highly biased and based on unsupported references. As I stated table talk was edited to make Hitler sound like he hated Christianity. However even if he did, it doesn't make him an atheist.
With all arguments rebutted I look forward to your response.
My opponent cedes that Hitler was probably not a Christian by his own words. But yet he DID claim to be a Christian initially.
[Adolf Hitler, from Rauschning, _The Voice of Destruction_, pp. 239-40]
“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a
fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded
by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and
summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest
not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian
and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord
at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the
Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight
against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with
deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact
that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As
a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have
the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is
anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is
the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty
to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and
work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only
for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning
and see these men standing in their queues and look into their
pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very
devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two
thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people
are plundered and exposed.”
We can conclude that he was a liar and used religion for political gain alone.
“We’ll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. We shall continue to preach the doctrine of National Socialism, and the young will no longer be taught anything but the truth.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 62
“So it’s not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death. A slow death has something comforting about it. The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before the advances of science. Religion will have to make more and more concessions. Gradually the myths crumble. All that’s left is to prove that in nature there is no frontier between the organic and the inorganic.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 59
Unlike Marxism, which declared much of culture and humanity irrelevant, National Socialism was holistic,” wrote Jonah Goldberg. Indeed, “organic” and “holistic” were the Nazi terms of art for totalitarianism. The Mussolinian vision of everything inside the state, nothing outside the state, was “organicized” by the Nazis. In this sense, the Bavarian cabinet minister Hans Schemm was deadly serious when he said, “National Socialism is applied biology set within Darwinism.”
Which "lack of belief" is set in "biology" and Darwinism?
“When understanding of the universe has become widespread, when the majority of men know that the stars are not sources of light but worlds, perhaps inhabited worlds like ours, then the Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 59
-Hitler was one desiring "science based beliefs". Sound familiar to another "lack of belief"?
"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 51
“It is to these private customs that peoples owe their present characters. Christianity, of course, has reached the peak of absurdity in this respect. And that’s why one day its structure will collapse. Science has already impregnated humanity. Consequently, the more Christianity clings to its dogmas, the quicker it will decline.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 60
Which group would talk about "science", "natural law" and "nature" and "Darwinism" in contrast to religion? Muslims wouldn't. Jews wouldn't. No one that believes in God or the supernatural would. But we know who would...
Richard Dawkins (Atheist) on Darwinism and natural selection-
-"A connection between evolutionary theory and the Holocaust relies on the fact that Hitler's conception of national struggle and supremacy was rooted in a type of social Darwinism, a political theory that holds that the concept of "survival of the fittest" applies to nations, races, or ethnicities."
Eugenics, the set of beliefs and practices which aims at improving the genetic quality of the human population played a significant role in the history and culture of the United States prior to World War II.
Hitlers table talk is a load of hogwash! You said yourself that he wanted to look good in front of people. It is safe to say Hitler's table talk is not a reliable source.
Because also in the table talk we find Hitler talking about Jesus,
" ... the Galilean, who later was called the Christ, intended something quite different. He must be regarded as a popular leader who took up His position against Jewry ... and it's certain that Jesus was not a Jew. The Jews, by the way, regarded Him as the son of a whore"of a whore and a Roman soldier. The decisive falsification of Jesus's doctrine was the work of St. Paul ... Paul of Tarsus (his name was Saul, before the road to Damascus) was one of those who persecuted Jesus most savagely."
There is quite a controversy on the texts in Hitlers table talk which is why it shouldn't be used as a source. For instance the text that reads,
"Our epoch will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity." Picker as well as Jochmann's German edition, read, "Die Zeit, in der wir leben, ist die Erscheinung des Zusammenbruchs dieser Sache." Which Carrier translates (in bold) as: "I have never found pleasure in maltreating others, even if I know it isn't possible to maintain oneself in the world without force. Life is granted only to those who fight the hardest. It is the law of life: Defend yourself! The time in which we live has the appearance of the collapse of this idea. It can still take 100 or 200 years. I am sorry that, like Moses, I can only see the Promised Land from a distance."
Since that is your only source and since the texts are very inaccurate and may have been changed I deduce that you have no concrete evidence that Hitler was an atheist. While on the contrary I have quite the list of texts that went unrebutted in the last round. I look forward to your response.
Jacob Marcus in his 1934 book by the Union of American Hebrew Congregations noted that "Though his parents were both Catholics, Hitler himself has apparently no interest in any organized religion."
"Just as Nazi propaganda made odious caricatures of lecherous Jewish preying on young German maidens, Nazi propaganda made identical caricatures of lecherous priests preying on young German maidens. In August 1935, the bishops of Germany presented at Fulda a pastoral letter warning of the Nazi "campaign of annihilation against Christianity" and a year after that Bishop Bornewasser publicly spoke about the Christian men and women who were persecuted by the Nazis because of their faith. On November 4, 1936, the Nazis ordered the removal of crucifixes from schools in the Oldenburg area on the grounds that these were "symbols of superstition." This order was rescinded only after Nazis were faced with determined local opposition. Then despite rescinding the Nazi prohibition of these "symbols of superstition," in December 1936 Nazi bureaucrats simply removed crucifixes anyway in Munsterland. When Christians replaced them in some schools, they were arrested by the Nazis."
Song of the "Hitler Youth"
"We are the happy Hitler Youth;
We have no need for Christian virtue;
For Adolf Hitler is our intercessor
And our redeemer.
No priest, no evil one
Can keep us
From feeling like Hitler’s children.
Not Christ do we follow, but Horst Wessel!
Away with incense and holy water pots…"
The author of this website was skeptical, so he, being able to speak and read German, translated it for himself. Let's check it out.
"Wir sind die fröhliche Hitlerjugend,
Wir brauchen keine christliche Tugend,
Denn unser Führer Adolf Hitler
Ist stets unser Mittler.
Kein Pfaffe, kein böser, kann uns je hindern,
Uns zu fühlen als Hitlers Kinder.
Nicht Christus folgen wir, sondern Horst Wessel,
Fort mit Weihrauch und Weihwasserkessel!
Wir folgen singend unseren Fahnen
Als würdige Söhne unserer Ahnen,
Ich bin kein Christ, kein Katholik,
Ich geh mit SA durch dünn und dick.
Die Kirche kann mir gestohlen werden,
Das Hakenkreuz ist Erlösung auf Erden,
Ihm will ich folgen auf Schritt und Tritt,
Baldur von Schirach, nimm mich mit!"
We are the happy Hitler Youth,
We need no Christian virtue,
Because our leader Adolf Hitler,
Is always our mediator.
No priest, no wrongdoer can ever hinder us,
From feeling like Hitler’s children.
We do not follow Christ but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and holy water!
We follow our flags singing,
As worthy sons of our ancestors,
I am no Christian, no Catholic,
I’ll go with the S.A. through thick and thin.
The church can be stolen from me,
The swastika is redemption on earth.
I will follow it step by step,
Baldur von Schirach, take me with you!
Your first block of text brings nothing. Jacob Marcus was a Jew. When I see the word "Apparently" I am suspicious. Why not take apparently out? Apparently this text is too biased to be of any help.
Onto the second block. Taking away symbols of superstition seems good to me. For the bible speaks of idols and such items. So on fact Hitler might have been doing God's work by getting eid of these. So it doesn't make him an atheist.
With these rebuttals in tpw I look forward to the following round.
Atheists constantly tell me that people are simply the religion they were born into. Adolph Hitler was brought up in a Christian home. He had no sense of Islam's god or Hinduism's shelf full of gods. He invisioned the idea of God from the Christian concept of God. I think it is safe to say he wasn't secretly worshipping the God of Judaism as well. We have established that he was anti Christianity. We also know he had a distain for Jews.
HITLER ATE MEAT. HITLER ATE SAUSAGE. HITLER ATE PORK.
"There are photographs of Hitler eating pork. And there are photos of Hitler dining at the dinner table, with meat on his plate. There is first-hand testimony by Hitler's own wife who fixed his meals that Hitler liked to eat bavarian sausage. She states Hitler ate Liver too. So if you know a person that likes Sausage, Adolf Hitler also liked to eat sausage. And if you know a person who recommends liver, Hitler loved liver."
Why does it matter? Muslims are not allowed to eat pork. It is strictly forbidden.
"Gautama Buddha rejected the existence of a creator deity, refused to endorse views on creation, and stated that questions on the origin of the world are not ultimately useful for ending suffering."
"Hitler was a hypochondriac who regularly consumed a cocktail of different drugs including tranquillisers, morphine and crystal meth during his reign." He had forsaken his beliefs. He was no longer accountable to anyone in his mind.
1)Was Hitler practicing Christianity? No. We have shown his hatred of Christianity.
2)Was he practicing Judaism? No. He tried to genocide the whole Jewish people. He also ate animals with a cloven hoof.
3)Was he practicing Islam? No. He ate foods forbidden in Islam. He never mentioned Muhammed as Allah's prophet/messenger. He showed no examples of following the 5 pillars of Islam. He showed no examples of praying 5 times a day on his face towards Mecca.
4)Was he practicing Buddhism? It doesn't matter. Buddhism has no Theistic thought of a god.
5)Was he practicing Hinduism? I have sifted through the giant conceptualization that we call Hinduism over the last 30 years, so let's check it out.
Hinduism has female goddesses.
Hitler was a full blown anti feminist sexist. If a Hindu, he would have had no interest in insulting the pantheon of female goddesses of Hinduism.
-According to Alan Bullock, Hitler was a rationalist and a materialist "who believed neither in God nor in conscience."
Alan Louis Charles Bullock, Baron Bullock (13 December 1914 – 2 February 2004) was a British historian. He is best known for his book Hitler: A Study in Tyranny (1952) which was the first comprehensive biography of Adolf Hitler.
"You see, it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good?"
Speer, Albert (1997). Inside the Third Reich. New York: Simon and Schuster, p. 115.
The Japanese were Buddhists. Buddhism has no thought of any god.
"It's said that every man needs a refuge where he can find consolation and help in unhappiness. I don't believe it! If humanity follows that path, it's solely a matter of tradition and habit. That's a lesson, by the way, that can be drawn from the Bolshevik front. The Russians have no God, and that doesn't prevent them from being able to face death."
-Night of 11th-12th July 1941; p. 6.
In Richard Dawkins' 1986 book The Blind Watchmaker, he argues against the watchmaker analogy, an argument for the existence of a supernatural creator based upon the complexity of living organisms. Richard Dawkins says that Darwinism led to his Atheism.
"Truly, this earth is a trophy cup for the industrious man. And this rightly so, in the service of natural selection. He who does not possess the force to secure his Lebensraum in this world, and, if necessary, to enlarge it, does not deserve to possess the necessities of life. He must step aside and allow stronger peoples to pass him by."
Many Atheists celebrate "Darwin Day".
Arguments about meat didn't feed my appetite. Just because someone eats meat doesn't make them an atheist. Enough food for thought, you cannot prove Hitler was an atheist just because he ate pork or meat.
As for the following they add nothing to your case. Just becasue you don't have a religion doesn't make you an atheist. In fact it makes you agnostic or just a plain theist. SO as I said this provides nothing to your case.
Also just because you believe in evolution doesn't make you an atheist. I see you are scratching the dirt hard in this round but you didn't gain anything useful.
It is clear that Hitler was not an atheist from the speeches that he said. Since we are referring to Hitler and since he says he believes in God it's his word against ours and until PROVEN false his words still stand. Thank you for reading.
1 votes has been placed for this debate.
Vote Placed by matt8800 8 months ago
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Reasons for voting decision: Pro provided some potential evidence that Hitler was not a Christian yet he did not provide any evidence he was an atheist. Similar to Einstein and Thomas Paine, Con argued that Hitler believed in the existence of a god but rejected organized religion. Rejection of any or all of the religious dogmas does not automatically mean someone does not believe there is a god.
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