The Instigator
Dilara
Pro (for)
Losing
3 Points
The Contender
sidewinder
Con (against)
Winning
8 Points

Affirmative action should not continue

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Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 2 votes the winner is...
sidewinder
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 1/31/2015 Category: Politics
Updated: 2 years ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 1,705 times Debate No: 69242
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (5)
Votes (2)

 

Dilara

Pro

Affirmative action is reverse discrimination. It punishes innocent men and white people for crimes they did not do. Race and gender based affirmative action should not continue for these reasons.
1. Many white people like me have ancestors who fought in the civil war to free slaves. Many of is also have grandparents who supported civil rights in the 1960s. Many of us also have ancestors who worked in the underground rail roads. We are being discriminated against based on what our ancestors fought against. If you are someone with racist ancestors that is not your fault. You weren't alive than and you could not have stopped it.
2. White people have suffered discrimation and even genocide. My grandparents and great uncles and aunts are Crimean Tatars. During ww2 Tatars along with Jews, Polish people and other white people were sent to nazi camps. During ww2 My family lived in a cave and are boiled shoe leather and They worked as slaves in a nazi camp. Compare her to a black person today who wasn't a slave and has not been discriminated against. Since affirmative action is done to make up for passed injustices like slavery isn't discriminating against the person who actually was a Slave unfair?. In Bosnia in the 1990s bosnian Muslims were killed in a genocide. If you are a bosnian muslim who came here after being raped in a rape camp and loosing your family and you are up against a black person who immigrated from Africa, did not suffer from racism like you and is richer and has had more chances wouldn't taking the black person just because of their race be... Cruel?.
Most white people don't have slave owning ancestors. Not all black people have slave ancestors or ancestors who were discriminated against here.
White people in history have faces problems in America. 70% of white people who came to America between 1607 and 1776 were indentured servants. These servants were treated worse them slaves because slaves were seen as an investment that you wanted to keep healthy to an extranet so they could work for you where as indentured servants would only work for 4-7 years so you wanted to get as much work out of them as possible. Some indentured servants were kidnapped from sure ops the way black people were from Africa though most came over by free wil. Irish people were treated the same wa black people were in America.
When it comes to life saving jobs like cops and doctors you want the best, smartest, most qualified and hard working person to be cutting you open or helping you during a time when your life is in danger, not someone who was pretty good but happened to be a women or a minority and aside from race or gender would not have gotten the job.
White people and men can suffer from racism (hate crimes), abuse, disease, poverty, mental dowel trees and other problems. Compare them to a rich black women whose had an easy life. Your going to send the poor white men back to the slum to suffer when this job is all he has just because he's white? And take the black women who doesn't need the job? The playing field isn't even in this case.
Finally as a g girl I find it offensive that people think I would need extra help when compared to a guy. Black people are not less smart than white people and women aren't less smart than men.
America should not have race or gender based affirmative action.
sidewinder

Con

I accept this interesting issue that you have put forward and I ill be arguing in favor of affirmative action

1. What is affirmative action
Affirmative action I always see misconstrued in American society. For affirmative action is a multifaceted program that has gone through many revisions due to a changing cultural atmosphere in America. The ultimate goal of affirmative action is to level the playing field that has for so long been skewed in favor of white men. By setting racial quotas for all programs that receive government funding. For instance I am in a government funded program in my school called the STEM program. This special education program received government funding from a program called race to the top and thus must have a student population that accurately reflects the population of my city with in a certain percent error. If this program was only composed of white people it could be inferred that their is a hidden bias in the program and that it must investigated or its funding removed. This is the basic principle behind affirmative action and it has been used and it has proven to be a extremely successful program that has helped desegregate government institutions or anything funded by the government. This helps country the systemic racism that has plagued America since its inception.

I would also like to clarify many incorrect statements you made
1.Affirmative action is reverse discrimination
No affirmative action is the use of racial quotas to insure that a population of any government funded program accurately reflects the population of the city or state the program is located in

2.Many of is also have grandparents who supported civil rights in the 1960s
Firstly try and articulate yourself a little bit better. Secondly just because you don't participate in racism doesn't mean it does not exist and it also means that we should do nothing about it because you or your ancestors did not knowingly perpetuate racism

3.Many of us also have ancestors who worked in the underground rail roads
disproportionately few Americans were involved in the underground railroad or any anti-slavery movements

4.Polish people and other white people were sent to nazi camps
The discrimination and slavery is very different from systematic genocide and comparing them is incorrect and insulting to the 6 million men, women, and children that died in the Holocaust

5.Your diatribe on the Bosnian civil war
Once again slavery and discrimination is not comparable to genocide

6. affirmative action is done to make up for passed injustices like slavery isn't discriminating against the person who actually was a Slave unfair
Affirmative action is not limited to black people so this renders your entire argument invalid

7. If you are a bosnian muslim who came here after being raped in a rape camp and loosing your family and you are up against a black person who immigrated from Africa, did not suffer from racism like you and is richer and has had more chances wouldn't taking the black person just because of their race be... Cruel?.
once again affirmative action is not limited to African Americans it is racial quotas that ensure that a government funded program is not being racist

8.Most white people don't have slave owning ancestors. Not all black people have slave ancestors or ancestors who were discriminated against here.
Yes you are correct but that does not mean that their is not systemic racism that has become a intrinsic yet often unseen part of American life. For the biggest disconnect with your argument is to complain that affirmative action only exists because of past injustices such as slavery. However to hold that view point would imply that racism has disappeared from America which it has most certainly not.

9.70% of white people who came to America between 1607 and 1776 were indentured servants
No 70% of the people who came to the Virginia colony were indentured servants which formed less than half of all colonists in America. Thus the reality was that a little more than 25% of American colonists were at any point indentured servants. Also most indentured servants were free after seven years the same could not be said of the black slaves that were later imported. So the two are not comparable in the slightest.

10.Diatribe on Cops and Doctors
The medical profession is not affected by affirmative action so that argument is invalid and the lack of trust between police and citizens in Ferguson Missouri should reflect why we need a police force that has a racial ratio similar to the population it is protecting

11.White people are victims of racism
Yes but they are disproportionately less likely to be discriminated against

Conclusions
Affirmative action has been the United States most effective ways of fighting hidden prejudice in America and to remove these safe guards would be detrimental to American society.

https://www.aclu.org...

On average, black men's prison sentences are 20% longer than white men's for comparable crimes: http://www.wsj.com......

Black people and white people use illegal drugs at similar rates, but black people are far more likely to be arrested for drug use: http://www.vox.com......

African Americans are far more likely to be stopped and searched (although the contraband hit rate is higher among white people) in California: http://articles.latimes.com......

And in New York (where the data isn't quite as good but appears to be comparable to CA): http://www.nyclu.org......

Those wrongfully convicted and later exonerated by DNA are disproportionately African American: http://www.innocenceproject.org......

Black kids are far more likely to be tried as adults and more likely to receive life sentences: http://www.nytimes.com......

Black former convicts get fewer employer callbacks than white former convicts: http://www.irp.wisc.edu......

Emily and Brendan are more hirable than Lakisha and Jamal: http://www.chicagobooth.edu......

On that front, this study is also interesting: http://psycnet.apa.org...... and similar results have been found in the UK: http://www.theguardian.com...... and also in Australia: http://ftp.iza.org...

Also, this news story has some great analysis: http://www.nytimes.com......

High schools with mostly African American and Latino students are less likely to offer courses in Algebra II or Chemistry than high schools with mostly white students: https://www.documentcloud.org......

This article explores many of the other ways that increasingly segregated schools have negatively affected African American students: http://www.nytimes.com......

And this story discusses the fact that African American students are more than twice as likely to be suspended as white students--even in preschool. http://www.npr.org......

The ACP report on racial disparities in U.S. health care: http://www.acponline.org......
This (dated) study is also damning: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...... and there's lot of good info here: http://en.wikipedia.org......

More info on increasing disparities in life expectancy between black and white people in the US: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov......

The most recent polls show fewer white people thinking racism is not a problem than the ones I used in this video (although still a huge divide): http://www.cnn.com...... and http://www.washingtonpost.com...... and http://www.thefiscaltimes.com......

Racial wealth disparity and the role that inheritance plays: http://iasp.brandeis.edu......
Related wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org......

The widening of the wealth gap: http://www.pewresearch.org......

http://en.wikipedia.org...
Debate Round No. 1
Dilara

Pro

1. How do you describe the action of not hiring someone just because they're white despite being more qualified than their black counter part? Discrimination
2 doing something about racism doesn't have to mean letting someone discriminate against me. I can help end racism which I know exists using ways that don't discriminate against me.
4 your right. Genocide is worse.
6 it's not my fault slavery happened. I have ancestors who fought to end slavery. Why should I suffer for what they risked their lives to end? What if I'm a poor white person and I'm applying to a job but a rich black person whose had an easier life gets it instead of me. I don't want to suffer because of what someone who happened to be the same race as me did 50 years ago. What if my ancestors weren't even here during slavery?
7 that situation still could happen and while doing something to make up for racism your discriminating against someone who actually suffered from it.
8. There are many different white cultures. There's the Scandinavians in Minnesota, the Cajuns in Louisiana, the pensylvania Dutch in pensylvania... All of which are different with distinct cultures and history. Just because the southern white culture (generally) benefited from racism doesn't mean the russian immigrant in NYC has to pay for it. That's clumping all whites in a group. My grandparents and their siblings for example suffered from racism as they were in nazi camps. The didn't benefit from it.
10. Cops same thing. Not all white cops are racist and want to kill the first black person they see. Many White cops protect black and Hispanic people and risk their lives doing it. If you are in a situation where a rapist is in your house and your calling 911 who do you want to come ? The best, strongest and most well trained cop or the pretty good cop.
11 imagine being a white person who was paralyzed in an anti white hate crime and than being discriminated against again.
All those facts are true because black people tend to live in poorer neighborhoods . Black young men make up 3% of the population and commit 50% of the murderers (fbi) and black teenage boys are 9 times more likely to rob , 6 times more likely to tape and 3 times more likely to kill than white teen boys. That's why they are more likely to be tried As adults. They are more likely to do crimes that makes them deserve to be tried as adults. Not all black men are criminals and I don't want to lump them into a category.

The fact about high schools offering chem courses is misleading. Mostly black and mostly Latino schools usually are more poor and schools with lower income students are less likely to offer those kinds of sunjects.
There are plenty of poor white people and rich black people.
Affirmative action was necessary years ago but now things have changed.
sidewinder

Con

Rebuttals
1. "How do you describe the action of not hiring someone just because they're white despite being more qualified than their black counter part? Discrimination"
Because that is not what affirmative action does. What affirmative action does do is insure that any discrepancies in hiring of any program funded by the federal government is investigated to see if those discriminations are based on race or other factors. This program has come about because racism still exists in th united states and is shown in the numerous studies that I sited thus is it not the government's responsibility to investigate this possible discrimination? The type of discrimination you seem to be describing is universities who wanted more diverse campuses gave extra points to blacks instead of whites. They did this of their own accord and it was ruled unconstitutional to the supreme court. Thus the type of discrimination that you keep pretending exists number one does not exist and number 2 has nothing to do with affirmative action.

2."doing something about racism doesn't have to mean letting someone discriminate against me. I can help end racism which I know exists using ways that don't discriminate against me"
Once again that is not what affirmative action does

3.There are many different white cultures. There's the Scandinavians in Minnesota, the Cajuns in Louisiana, the pensylvania Dutch in pensylvania
Yes and they are statistically less likely to be discriminated against. However affirmative action can work both ways. If a program is disproportionately higher blacks then it would be investigated. However this does not happen because the white racism that you describe barely exists except in some left leaning campuses that were investigated and brought to the supreme court for discrimination against white students. Also the pennsylvania dutch are german they are called the pennsylvania dutch because when they said Deutschland which is german for germany or fatherland we assumed they were saying dutch.

4,your right. Genocide is worse
Than stop using it in your argument because only a few lines down in your argument you bring up genocide again

5.Just because the southern white culture (generally) benefited from racism doesn't mean the russian immigrant in NYC has to pay for it
Once again not what affirmative action does

6."Cops same thing. Not all white cops are racist and want to kill the first black person they see. Many White cops protect black and Hispanic people and risk their lives doing it. If you are in a situation where a rapist is in your house and your calling 911 who do you want to come ? The best, strongest and most well trained cop or the pretty good cop"
Well than I would like to ask you a question if you are a citizen in ferguson missouri in which the police force is 90% white while your city is 70% black, blacks are twice as likely to be pulled over and the police force has a past of police brutality would you trust your police force. Answer that question before you say that a disproportionately white police force should be allowed.

7.All those facts are true because black people tend to live in poorer neighborhoods . Black young men make up 3% of the population and commit 50% of the murderers (fbi) and black teenage boys are 9 times more likely to rob , 6 times more likely to tape and 3 times more likely to kill than white teen boys. That's why they are more likely to be tried As adults. They are more likely to do crimes that makes them deserve to be tried as adults. Not all black men are criminals and I don't want to lump them into a category.
Yes and they are equally likely to do drugs but are arrested 5 times as often for the same offense. Black kids are more likely to be tried as adults in a court. People who are exonerated of crime through DNA evidence are disproportionately black, 42% of black children go to schools with high levels of poverty, black mothers are twice as likely to suffer infant mortality. This all points to the idea that criminals are not born they are made so if you want to throw out the statistic that blacks are 50% more likely to murder someone I can come right back at you and say that blacks are 2100% more likely to be killed by a police officer than white people and compose of 40% of the US prison population despite only representing a 13% part of American demographics. Statistics cut both ways and I guarantee you I can find 5 peer reviewed sources on how blacks are less equal than ever source you find on how whites are treated with racism any where close to as comparable as blacks in modern day United States.

8."imagine being a white person who was paralyzed in an anti white hate crime and than being discriminated against again."
I defy you to find a source that shows that these anti white neighborhoods are even close to frequent in the United states because right now you have the credibility of Fox News with their muslim zones in europe.

9.The fact about high schools offering chem courses is misleading. Mostly black and mostly Latino schools usually are more poor and schools with lower income students are less likely to offer those kinds of sunjects.
First of all please work on your spelling and secondly that is the exact reason why affirmative action exists because those schools under affirmative action should be investigated as to why they offer less opportunity to poor people than rich people. With those poor people often being disproportionately black or latino.

10.There are plenty of poor white people and rich black people.
Really because whites statistically own 1300% more aggregate wealth than blacks and hispanics.
http://www.pewresearch.org...

11.Affirmative action was necessary years ago but now things have changed
So long as racism in this world exists the minorities of our populations must be protected. That is why affirmative action must remain.

Conclusions The United States has been plagued with racism since its inception so is it not our responsibility to eliminate racism in America? My opponent does not think so and maintains the delusion that whites are treated equally with african Americans without sighting a single source other than fbi which is not particularly helpful. Thus I would ask that you vote for me for my opponent has failed on every level to prove her point by either completely misunderstanding what affirmative action does or by comparing racism against whites in the United states to the holocaust. thus I would ask that you vote for me.
Sources
in past argument
Debate Round No. 2
Dilara

Pro

If you don't get a job just because you are white than you are paying for passed injustices
3. I'm half pensylvania Dutch mennonite. I have Amish ancestry to and I've been to Germany. I know that but everyone said Dutch so it kind of stuck.
Anti white racism is more common than you think. It's less likely to be reported on by the liberal media. Kevin Shiflet was an 8 year old white boy whose throat was slit by a black man as he played on his yard. He killer hated white people and that's why he did it. Zemir begic was killed in December as revenge for mike brown by a group of black and Hispanic teens. David santucci was killed after the Zimmerman verdict as revenge for like brown. In Wisconsin white kids were made to wear white wrist bands to symbolize white privilege.
6 Since ferguson is mostly black they have to have a white police force? And since America is 70% white we should have a white president by that logic. Most cops are nice people who choose that job because they want to save people. White Cops save many black lives a year. You can't assume they're all evil because of 100 black people killed by cops a year. Remember black people aren't the only people who will need cops help. I don't want to be put in danger by having a less qualified person help me when I need it because someone in Missouri diesnt like white cops.
Black people are more likely to commit crime because they live in poorer areas and therefor are more likely to be in prison.
8 In august Ralph weems was attacked by a group of black men outside a Missisippi Waffle House as revenge for mike brown. Still he is in a rehab facility with a traumatic brain injury. Imagine if he (once he's able to work) were to not get ores be he of affirmative action.
9 affirmative action should be based on socioeconomics. A rich black person will have an easier toe getting into college than a poor white person whose suffered from things like diseases, dissabilities ect. Assuming because one person is white and one person is black the white had an easier life is making a preconceived notion.
Racism against blacks exists for sure and so does racism against whites. My opponent doesn't seek to grasp any of thin formation I gave him. Please vote for me.
sidewinder

Con

I will once again direct this conversation to rebuttals
1."If you don't get a job just because you are white than you are paying for passed injustices"
Or their could be hundreds of other reasons why you didn't get a job and you have yet to present a single source showing how affirmative action is detrimental to white people.

2. Your two stories on white racism against blacks
In both of these investigations the policy have not confirmed whether it is a hate crime or a result of racism but lets imagine that they are definitely because of racism. As promised here are ten examples of racism against blacks in the united states. In interviews 1 in 10 small business owners believe that they should be allowed to not serve african Americans. The average black man has a 32% chance to be arrested in comparison to a white man which has the expectancy of 8%. Blacks make up 40% of prison populations in comparison to their 13% percentage of the population. In a 2009 report, 2/3 of the criminals receiving life sentences were non-whites. In New York, it is 83%. After being arrested, African-Americans are 33% more likely than whites to be detained while facing a felony trial in New York.
In 2010, the U.S. Sentencing Commission reported that African Americans receive 10% longer sentences than whites through the federal system for the same crimes.In 2009 African-Americans are 21% more likely than whites to receive mandatory minimum sentences and 20% more likely to be sentenced to prison than white drug defendants. African-Americans comprise 13% of the U.S. population and 14% of the monthly drug users, but 37% of the people arrested for drug-related offenses in America. Studies show that police are more likely to pull over and frisk blacks or Latinos than whites. In New York City, 80% of the stops made were blacks and Latinos, and 85% of those people were frisked, compared to a mere 8% of the white people stopped. Whites have 1300% more aggregate wealth than the average black man. So I recommend you gain some perspective before you complain about white racism.

3.affirmative action should be based on socioeconomics. A rich black person will have an easier toe getting into college than a poor white person whose suffered from things like diseases, dissabilities ect
Their are separate laws that deal with such discrimination that were signed into law by George W Bush Senior. Thus affirmative action has no control over such matters. You also seem to act as if affirmative action is in the private sector which is not true. Affirmative action only affects you if you are part of a government funded program. Also the easier to get into college was done by the college itself without any affirmative action and that action was stopped by the supreme court.

4.Assuming because one person is white and one person is black the white had an easier life is making a preconceived notion.
No its a notion based on hundreds of studies some of which are dispersed through my argument. However assuming that blacks and whites are equal in America is a preconceived notion and it is one that you have been perpetuating in this debate.

5.My opponent doesn't seek to grasp any of thin formation I gave him
number one that sentence does not even make sense and second of all my opponent has failed to back up her argument with any relevant data or sources that support her argument that Affirmative action is detrimental to America as a whole.

Conclusions The United States has been plagued with racism since its inception so is it not our responsibility to eliminate racism in America? My opponent does not think so and maintains the delusion that whites are treated equally with african Americans without sighting a single source other than fbi which is not particularly helpful. Thus I would ask that you vote for me for my opponent has failed on every level to prove her point by either completely misunderstanding what affirmative action does or by comparing racism against whites in the United states to the holocaust. thus I would ask that you vote for me.

http://www.nydailynews.com...
http://www.theblaze.com...
http://publicreligion.org...
http://www.msnbc.com...
Debate Round No. 3
5 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 5 records.
Posted by Dilara 2 years ago
Dilara
Brian once again. I'm sharing my family story of being forced to work in a nazi work camp but to you I'm just playing racism. And yes anti white crimes happen in America all the time.
Posted by Dilara 2 years ago
Dilara
Thank you mister man
Posted by Dilara 2 years ago
Dilara
Tbr why do we have it? Should someone who survived ww2 and lived in a nazi work camp not be given a job because they're white while a black person who has not been discriminated against he given the job? And me and my moms family are muslim. Today Muslims have it worse than black people do. We are less likely to get hired then anyone else.
Posted by TBR 2 years ago
TBR
"Since affirmative action is done to make up for passed injustices like slavery ..."

This is your primary problem. That is NOT why we have affirmative action.
Posted by Stefy 2 years ago
Stefy
if minirities were already treated equally it would be bad. But theyre not. A study was done where employers were kess likley to hire those reaumes woth black sounding names on them. Its not giving minorites an advantage its leveling the playing field. I dont think white people have struggled majorly becaus eof this policy. It just hasnt happened.
2 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Vote Placed by briantheliberal 2 years ago
briantheliberal
DilarasidewinderTied
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Total points awarded:06 
Reasons for voting decision: I doubt Pro even knows what she is arguing against. Many of her points had nothing to do with her side of the argument and she completely ignored all of the statistical data that Con presented in his argument. It sounds as if she is just playing the victim and making everything about herself, not actually presenting sound reasons for her side. Pro also failed to use proper spelling and grammar. I vote Con.
Vote Placed by Mister_Man 2 years ago
Mister_Man
DilarasidewinderTied
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Total points awarded:32 
Reasons for voting decision: Although Sidewinder brought up good arguments with (mostly) reliable sources, his arguments were based on statistics interpreted the wrong way. Dilara showed how racism against whites is practically accepted, and affirmative action is just another example of it. Although both parties seem to have dropped some arguments, Dilara's arguments and rebuttals make it more reasonable to believe that Affirmative Action is detrimental to society and building on the economy and communities.