The Instigator
Logical-Master
Pro (for)
Winning
59 Points
The Contender
HadenQuinlan
Con (against)
Losing
41 Points

After this debate concludes, my opponent will receive at least one vote.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 4/17/2008 Category: Education
Updated: 8 years ago Status: Voting Period
Viewed: 2,290 times Debate No: 3676
Debate Rounds (2)
Comments (17)
Votes (27)

 

Logical-Master

Pro

The only way I can lose this debate will be if my opponent does not receive any votes after this debate concludes. However, I have a suspicion that someone will vote for my opponent as it would be in at least one individual's interest to hand my opponent a vote.
HadenQuinlan

Con

This round is complete speculation - as it's impossible to prove either PRO or CON. The only way for my opponent to possibly prove that I MUST recieve one vote is if he goes through every single frequenter of debate.org and asks him.

However, I understand what my opponent is trying to do - so if I left a speech like that I'd surely be crushed. My opponent is debating me, knowing that it is physically impossible for CON to win unless he wills it, and even then because it may not be possible. Let me explain:

The fact is, it is nigh impossible for CON to win this debate. The reason why? PRO has a vote. If PRO has a vote on the outcome of this debate, he ensures that no matter what he will vote for CON. Therefore this resolution is abusive, as there is no probable way, unless my opponent forfeits his own vote, that I will win this debate. My opponent is running an abusive case which is impossible to advocate the CON side because all my opponent must do to win is say, "I will vote for you." However, I'd like to make the point that the PRO has no possible way of knowing that there will be one vote for me. He can assume, but he has no conclusive evidence in his brain that he will vote for me. There is no evidence supporting PRO, however I still will not win. In fact, I'd like to bring the following point to your attention:

The Pro is using this debate simply to gain a better winning record. If I recieve no votes, I have clearly won the debate but I do not recieve the win. If I recieve one vote, people see that I have recieved one vote and realize PRO has won, and therefore you should vote PRO.

So I urge you, the judges, to vote CON. This will give pro the theoretical win, however I will win the actual round. The reason for this? I understand my opponent's foul trick, and I'd like you to prevent this from happening again. In this round I have practically conceded to him, however there is no other option. I could hammer in the fact that he cannot prove anything, however after the round we see that he would still have won. So use your logic - do you want to vote with someone with a sly, one-sided, unfair debate? Or, do you want to vote with the person who has provided an analysis of his opponent's debauchery, and practically unveiled whatever logical fallacy he attempts to explain. At this point, you must vote CON.

Thank you for the interesting topic ;P

~HQ
Debate Round No. 1
Logical-Master

Pro

Ladies and gentleman, CON outright states that he has no means of winning this debate with the following statement:

"The fact is, it is nigh impossible for CON to win this debate."

Thus, considering this statement, you have an objective reason to vote PRO.

But alas, to pacify CON, let us address the rest of his response.

First, take note of the comment section as there is a user who is already planning to vote CON on this. If he still intends to donate his vote to CON, then this renders most of CON's response even more irrelevant than it already is; CON's response relies on the idea that I will be the one to vote CON, but as he has already "persuasively demonstrated", it will at least be in one user's interest to vote CON. You should also note that this was before I even posted this round or suggested that I would vote CON.

Second, I disagree with the notion that there is no way to argue in this debate. In fact, let us observe a similar seemingly impossible to win debate: http://www.debate.org...

The instigator's position is "I will not get a challenger for this debate." One would think that merely getting a challenger would secure the win for the instigator in that debate, but due to the contenders arguments that relied on the wording of the resolution, the votes are currently (as I'm posting) in the contender's favor. There are many ways around these kinds of debates, but they require that you think outside the box. There are indeed ways to argue against the very topic I've created and come out with a win, but I am not obligated to provide them here as that is CON's job. Me providing them would be the equivalent to a boxer punching himself in the face during a boxing match. Rather I will simply list a way to keep me from winning.

The easiest way to keep me from winning this debate is to simply never allow it to become a debate. One of the ways to do this is to not accept the debate in the first place.

However, by accepting this debate, CON is agreeing to argue in the position of the contender. Take note of the following statement that is provided before one signs up for a debate: " I accept the challenge and will debate this member." Like anyone else could, CON agreed to this before being able to establish himself as CON in this debate. So since that is the case, why is it that CON has accepted the challenge, but is now REFUSING IT? Furthermore, as CON, his job is to be AGAINST the above topic of debate (this description can be found here: http://www.debate.org... ). As he has clearly stated in his round, he is not against the above topic of debate, but rather myself, as a user (hence his claims on my foul practices and those being reason to vote against me) for making this seemingly impossible to win debate. Through accepting MY CHALLENGE and not doing what is requested by the rules of debate.org, it is CON who is being abusive; rejecting the challenge entirely after having "officially" accepted is a very heinous practice.

As for there being no conclusive evidence, let us remember that as my own self, I am the ultimate authority on what I think/feel. Furthermore, as the instigator, I only have to prove that the resolution is more likely than any other alternative. It would be in my interest to vote CON because as CON points out, this would insure a win regardless of what was said during the round. As even CON believes, my goal is to win this debate. CON gives no reason to suggest that it is unlikely that I will vote, nor does he give a reason to suggest that I will vote PRO (under the circumstances which he presents). If he attempts to turn around and provide reasons in the next round, you are to dismiss them.

CON resorts to the ad hominem fallacy through claiming that I'm only making this debate to raise my win record( thus being reason to vote for him). Usually, I wouldn't even dignify such a claim with a response, but since I have the space to do so, observe the comment section here: http://www.debate.org...

Notice how I respond to a troll who threatens to go across all of my debates and vote against me? I provoke him by telling him that I couldn't care less (not to mention the rest of my smarmy replies). Does this sound like the behavior of someone who really cares about his win record on this site?

Next, CON gives you a reason to dismiss his conclusive evidence argument as he concedes to the idea that I will vote for him. As suggested above, CON has already decided to concede to my case in his round 1, thus I win by default. If he tries to go back in the next round and change his position on this issue or any other issue which he established, you are not to consider his response as that is abusive.

As for telling you to vote because this debate is unfair to him, this is clear usage of the appeal to pity fallacy. Better yet, let me demonstrate the absurdity of his plea with an example:

A pro wrestler (who we will call Mr. Bulk) decides to hold a wrestling tournament in which the objective of the challengers is simply to defeat him in a one on one match. A scrawny out of shape man named Maury hears about this tournament, reads the description of Mr.Bulk, and decides to enter. When it finally comes time for Maury to have his match with Mr. Bulk, he turns to the judges of the match and tells them that he should be considered the winner since the match is clearly in Mr. Bulk's favor; he thinks the match is impossible to actually win through wrestling since Mr. Bulk is not only much larger than him, but is also a pro at wrestling.

Now tell me, do you honestly think the judges are going to give Maury the win for the match? Of course not. The objective of the wrestling match was to win through out wrestling Mr. Bulk rather than to win out of the judges pity. Same here. CON's objective in this debate match is to win through debating against the topic, not win out of your pity. To add, he knew what he was up against and still signed up for this debate by his own free will. You're free to pity him for signing up to a debate which he came in knowing he couldn't win, but don't hand him a vote for it.

And if he really wanted to put a stop to debates like these, he'd contact the Webmaster and ask him to cancel this debate. Furthermore, he wouldn't have taken this challenge in this first place. Like responding to trolls, giving attention to debates like these only encourages them. And as suggested above, I don't care about my win ratio, so his method wouldn't discourage me from creating more debates like this one.

At the end of every debate, the voting section ask "Who won this DEBATE." It doesn't ask "Who do you approve of" or "Who do you like more." This is Debate.org. CON has stated that he should win the round because he has pointed out my debauchery and has explained the logical fallacy which I have attempted to unveil. Ironically enough, the only fallacy (well, at least one of ) here is CON telling you to vote on something that by no means concerns the actual debate (red herring). Whether or not you can consider my practices foul, how does that prove the topic wrong? Why should you vote on something that completely disregards the actual debate?

What CON is encouraging is a symbol of everything that is wrong with this website; he is encouraging the practice of disregarding the actual DEBATES. Are you really going to let him get away with this? This debate doesn't just concern HQ or myself, but it concerns all users of debate.org, so stand up to CON. Show him that there are people on this website who still care about the debates. Show him that your votes can't be won by fallacious appeals. Show him that debate.org is intolerant of the practice of not actually debating. SHOW HIM THE TRUTH by voting PRO.

Thank you.
HadenQuinlan

Con

HadenQuinlan forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 2
17 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
You never learn, do you?

25 characters
Posted by Nitpelk 8 years ago
Nitpelk
EVERYONE, VOTE FOR HadenQuinlan IN THIS DEBATE. Logical-Master(a.k.a. beem0r, Yraelz, SportsGuru, Kleptin) has the advantage in that he has been voting for himself with his many accounts on most of his debates. HE IS A CHEATER and should therefore be treated like one.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
The resolution makes a claim that relies on how well I can defend it rather than what is perceived as real word truth (at least in debates such as these, which take place for the purpose of competition). At first glance, it would seem a simple task for me to defend the claim that "After this debate concludes, my opponent will receive at least one vote." However, upon examination of this claim, two things come to mind.

1) Many debates on this website have gone unconcluded. This typically occurs due to the intervention of the webmaster (when the webmaster notices a debate that is inappropriate for this website, he removes it). This calls into question as to how I would KNOW this debate would conclude. As the CON, the best defense would be to advocate "If this debate concludes . . ." This would have reversed the roles in who had the easier position to defend.

2) Second, one has to question what determines whether or not a debate truly concludes? Often times on this website, debates get carried on the comment section. If this debate were carried on into the comment section and there was never an agreement to disagree, the debate that took place during the actual rounds would only go to show that I've proven that you'd get a vote after the rounds rather than the debate.
Posted by HadenQuinlan 8 years ago
HadenQuinlan
"Who says this debate relies on the outcome?"

The resolution.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Who says this debate relies on the outcome?
Posted by Shorack 8 years ago
Shorack
It is no debate.

And there is no way the outcome won't be true unless the Pro side doesn't vote on his opponent, which would be plain stupid.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
To anyone who thinks there's no way to argue the topic, feel free to challenge me using the same exact topic verbatim. I'll be more than happy to take up such a debate, provided it's 2-3 rounds.
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
How is this spam?

25 characters . . .
Posted by Shorack 8 years ago
Shorack
where is the report spam button...
Posted by Logical-Master 8 years ago
Logical-Master
Looks like I win.

25 characters
27 votes have been placed for this debate. Showing 1 through 10 records.
Vote Placed by Tatarize 7 years ago
Tatarize
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Vote Placed by Danielle 7 years ago
Danielle
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Vote Placed by JBlake 8 years ago
JBlake
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Vote Placed by Robert_Santurri 8 years ago
Robert_Santurri
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Vote Placed by Logical-Master 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by DrAlexander 8 years ago
DrAlexander
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Vote Placed by jiffy 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by GenEd 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by zdog234 8 years ago
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Vote Placed by brian_eggleston 8 years ago
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