The Instigator
LuciferWept
Pro (for)
Tied
0 Points
The Contender
subdeo
Con (against)
Tied
0 Points

Ahura Mazda is the only believable deity.

Do you like this debate?NoYes+0
Add this debate to Google Add this debate to Delicious Add this debate to FaceBook Add this debate to Digg  
Post Voting Period
The voting period for this debate has ended.
after 0 votes the winner is...
It's a Tie!
Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 3/25/2017 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 521 times Debate No: 101387
Debate Rounds (3)
Comments (2)
Votes (0)

 

LuciferWept

Pro

A brief debate on the believability of one of the world's oldest deities, Ahura Mazda[1][2].

I am an Atheist, but I am willing to admit that the existence of Ahura Mazda is not philosophically impossible, but the existence of all other deities is impossible.

The reason for this is twofold: the Zoroastrian religion did not forcibly convert people, as did virtually every other religion in human history. This is because the Prophet Zarathustra believed that each individual should decide for himself whether or not Ahura Mazda, Spenta Mainyu, and Angra Mainyu, were plausible celestial beings. This is is due to the fact that Ahura Mazda is a God of of Wisdom and not a God of Lightning or God of Water or (most foolishly of all) a God of Love.

Shortly put, if a good Atheist/Christian/Muslim/Jew/Shintoist/Pagan/Hindu/etc. should find themselves standing before Ahura Mazda, they would be embraced by the God, even though they never accepted him. This is not true of Jehovah, Jesus, Allah, Odin, Zeus, etc. Ahura Mazda demands no "Sacrifice of the Intellect", but instead is a God who is actualy compatible with Utilitarianism.

[1] https://www.britannica.com...
[2] http://www.bbc.co.uk...
subdeo

Con

Hello, Luciferwept, I look forward to an enlightening debate for both of us. I believe in one God, the God of the Bible. As such, I disagree that Ahura Mazda is the only believable deity.
You give two reasons why you believe Ahura Mazda is the only viable option. However, both of your reasons are no reasons at all. Essentially, you choose to deny the possibility of other Gods because you don't like their rules. In order to disprove them, or say their existence is impossible, you must do more than this, however.
A just God would never treat all people the same, even if they rejected him. There are those who do not want to have anything to do with God, and so He lets them have their free will and choose their own way. A god that did not do this would be practically cruel.
The God of the Bible is actually himself the God of wisdom [1], AND love, in addition to being the God of lightning, water, and everything else.
Your reasons are only governed by personal preference, not factuality. Bring forward real reasons and proofs that debunk the existence of other gods.

[1] http://biblehub.com...
Debate Round No. 1
LuciferWept

Pro

Bonjour.

I am not saying that there is any certainty as to the existence of Ahura Mazda, but only that his existence is plausible. This is because every other God, having been evidently created by man, possesses inherent human traits. Almost all deities throughout history have been angry, lustful, wrathful, jealous, and deceptive. These were why the philosopher and Catholic Saint Augustine saw fit to reject the Pagan Deities. Not one of these traits is possessed by Ahura Mazda. One arguing from your perspective might argue that the Christian God is also without these traits. Alas! for Jesus may not be lustful, but he is certainly angry and jealous (or, why the creation of an eternal torture chamber for those that did not adore him?). It's been a while, so correct if I am mistaken, but the Christian deity is three persons in one God. That means that Jesus was also responsible for demanding that Adam and Eve refrain from the Tree of Knowledge (so obviously, he is no God of Wisdom). To quote David Hume, "It is an absurdity to believe that a deity has human passions, and one of the lowest of human passions, a restless appetite for applause." Is not this restless appetite for applause the reason for mandatory attendance at church?

As for the other deities, their rules all contradict one another (sometimes within the same religion). And they do, as Augustine said, behave as humans.

However, Ahura Mazda merely watches. He desires no applause, as that those who do not kneel before him are not those he considers to be his enemies. He would rather be rejected as a credible deity by reason and thought, than be accepted because of a primal fear of torture. According to his prophet Zoroaster, "With an open mind, see and listen to all the highest ideals. Consider the most enlightened thoughts. Then choose your path, person by person, each for oneself".

To give credence to your God you bring forth the concept of Free Will, and this, too, exists with Ahura Mazda. However, as evidenced in the above paragraph, Ahura Mazda does not punish rejecting him as a deity. If the Christian God is real, then I, regardless of my behavior in life, am damned to eternal suffering. If the God of Zoroaster is real, the two of us, who both do not believe in him, will be judged on our virtue and not on our personal opinions.
subdeo

Con

Because other gods, (I am primarily "defending" the God of the Bible) including the God of the Bible, have some human traits, like you say, many of the false gods can be taken as fiction solely because of this. The God of the Bible has these traits because he created us in His own image. However, wouldn"t humans be also inclined to create a god that was their ideal god? As in, a god that lets you do whatever you want, and still welcomes you with open arms? So even Ahura Mazda can be disproved because of the fingerprints of humans upon him. The God of the Bible is not evil or lustful, and actually, hell was created "for the devil and his angels" [1]. However, if other humans choose to follow Satan there, they are "welcome". Still, God does not rejoice at the death of the wicked [2], and I actually have strong scriptural evidence that indicates the wicked will not have eternal conscious torment [3] (Christians who differ, please feel free to challenge me to a debate).

Yes, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the same God, so they did forbid the consumption of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. However, this was done to protect the human"s innocence, not forbid them wisdom. They could still have wisdom, just not that which would destroy their innocence. God wanted humans so he could love them. As such, if he had not given them free will to disobey if they so chose, he would not have true love. He wanted people who would obey because they loved Him. So yes, he is still the God of Wisdom.
I don"t know what gave you the idea that church attendance is mandatory, it is not. Although it is commanded that Christians be in fellowship with other believers.

Perhaps other deities contradict themselves; however, the God of the Bible never does this [4].

Perhaps both the God of the Bible and Ahura Mazda give free will. However, Ahura Mazda gives so much as to become unholy. He goes to the point of accepting evil and calling it good. God never does this. In addition, if Ahura Mazda accepts everyone, even if they did not believe in him, and only on "good works", then who determines good works? What if someone supposes murder is a good work. Will he still be accepted by Ahura Mazda? We can see that Ahura Mazda is only the product of human pagans wishing to have the ideal God.

Sources:
[1] http://heritagebbc.com...

[2] http://biblehub.com...

[3] https://www.google.com...;*&spd=10840084681009456920

[4] https://answersingenesis.org...

Note: Some of these sources contain primarily unrelated material. However, all sources contain the information for which I used them.
Debate Round No. 2
LuciferWept

Pro

So, I must rebut!

a god that lets you do whatever you want, and still welcomes you with open arms
You are confusing the word "do" with the word "think". Ahura Mazda does punish those who do evil, just not those who do not believe in him. Juxtapose this with the Christian God you are "primarily defending", who forgives evil deeds but punishes those who do not believe (the First Commandment[1])

The God of the Bible is not evil or lustful
Does this not contradict your other comment "God of the Bible has these traits because he created us in His own image." If we are in his image, than should we not possess these negative traits. I guess one could argue that those traits came from the Tree of Knowledge, but then again, the Abrahamic God did put that Tree in the middle of Eden and then said "don't eat from it!" Obviously, not a "God of Wisdom", in fact, not even a God with much foresight.

I actually have strong scriptural evidence that indicates the wicked will not have eternal conscious torment
Actually, I have heard this before, in a sense. It is that Hell is being without God and Heaven is being in the presence of God. So,it seems to me that one side gets to do whatever while those in Heaven get to spend eternity praising God, delivering him attention and applause for all eternity. A human trait indeed! The Abrahamic God must have his pride satiated, like the most vain of humans. To the contrary, Ahura Mazda does not do this. He does not demand attention and applause. Instead, he demands humans to be good to other humans. Again, one who rejects Ahura Mazda but practices good will be embraced by the God of the Persians. But this same man, if he also rejects the Abrahamic God, will be sent away simply for the crime of using his reason.

Although it is commanded that Christians be in fellowship with other believers.
Now I was brought up with mandatory church on Sundays, however I concede that point if you say that it isn't. But, the demand for fellowship with other believers, what about non-believers?

CONCLUSION

In conclusion, I believe that I have demonstrated how the Abrahamic God (and all others except Ahura Mazda) are the creations of human beings. But for further examination, let us see how believers of the two Gods (Jehova and Ahura Mazda) treated non-believers in their time of power.

Persia once controlled most of Asia Minor, parts of Eastern Europe, the Crimea, Egypt, and Northwestern India[2]. It was founded by Cyrus the Great and due to its Zoroastrianism (the worship of Ahura Mazda), adopted a policy of religious tolerance[3]. It was these people who allowed the ancient Israelites to return to Jerusalem and rebuild their temple[4].

Let us examine how the Jews behaved with their Abrahamic God. Genesis 34:15-29 discussed how they convinced a rival people to undergo circumcision in exchange for intermarrying. When the men were recovering from the mutilation, the Jews attacked them and killed them all, taking the women as part of the booty.[5]

Not to appear anti-Semetic, let us now examine Christianity's doings, and their efforts to spread the Gospel. We have the forced conversions of indigineous Europeans. Charlamagne ordering the execution of 4,500 Saxon men for not bowing down to Jeus[6]. We have the Crusades, which were politically brilliant but certainly violate the whole "Turn the Other Cheek" morality of Jesus. Of course, for plundering and fighting across Europe, they were granted entry into Heaven![7] Again, the forced conversion of indigineous peoples in a newly discovered land called the Americas[8].

So now we see that, like the ancient Pagan gods who demanded to be imposed upon conquered peoples, the God of the Bible is exactly the same. It appears as though only Ahura Mazda does not wish to be forced into the hearts of people.


[1] http://www.catholicity.com...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org...
[3] https://tavaana.org...
[4] http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...
[5] https://rarebible.wordpress.com...
[6] http://www.history.com...
[7] http://www.internationalschooltoulouse.net...
[8] https://www.thoughtco.com...





subdeo

Con

What would Ahura Mazda do if someone does not want to be with him? Ahura Mazda does not seem to offer free will, which, as we have discussed, is not a good thing. God (that is, the God of the Bible) does not force those who do not want to be with him to do so.

Original, sinless man was made in God"s image. Since the curse, man has become corrupt. We do not share the trait of evil or lustfulness with the God of the Bible. The tree was put in the garden so that Adam and Eve could have freewill. If there was no way to violate the rules, God could not have creatures to love and to love him. They would be slaves.
No, that is not what I meant when I said I do not believe in eternal conscious torment. While the wicked will be separated from God in the second death, it will be through complete annihilation. However, that is a different debate (Fellow Christians, feel free to challenge me to a friendly debate on this subject). Those in Heaven will praise God, but I believe will also engage in activities for leisure. Heaven is not a place of boring harp plucking, but of vigorous praise and activity.
Christians are told to be a witness to unbelievers. We should participate with them (just not in sin) as we would with anyone else.

The actions you say were done by Christians were all either not actually Christians, and/or they were not condoned by God. In fact, some of them were specifically reprimanded by God and his prophets.

In conclusion, I have shown that Ahura Mazda is not the only possible deity. He is the product of humans looking to make the perfect God.
Debate Round No. 3
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by Edlvsjd 1 year ago
Edlvsjd
I had a Mazda miata, does that count? Will I go to heaven?
Posted by canis 1 year ago
canis
I did know Mazda...So what?
No votes have been placed for this debate.