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Ali ibn Abi Talib (AS) was the true successor of prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) after his death.

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Voting Style: Open Point System: 7 Point
Started: 7/21/2015 Category: Religion
Updated: 1 year ago Status: Post Voting Period
Viewed: 647 times Debate No: 77961
Debate Rounds (5)
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In the name of God


This debate is because of my Sunni brothers and I will try to use sources of their books and not from our Shia books unless I can't find any Sunni references. I ask God to help both sides find the truth.

The Succession to our prophet, Muhammad (pbuh), was an important issue which made Muslims to be departed into different groups (basically Shia and Sunni).
Shia (or Shiite ) Muslims believe that Muhammad (pbuh) specified Ali ibn Abi Talib as his successor before he died and Abubakr (the first Caliph) betrayed Muhammad (pbuh) and his successor to make himself the first Caliph (Let's say leader or king) of the Muslims.

However, Sunni Muslims believe that Muhammad (pbuh) didn't specify any successors for his Ummah (The group of Muslims) and Abubakr was elected by majority of Muslims and his election was lawfully justified.

No one is going to insult other people however, facts can be opened and discussed.


Salam :). Debate accepted.
Debate Round No. 1


Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did specify a successor before he died, however some companions of prophet (Sahaba) betrayed him and made Abubakr as his successor. I'm going to talk about the day in which Muhammad (pbuh) specified Ali as his successor.

The Prophet traveled from Madina to Mecca to perform the pilgrimage there. It was in the tenth year of Hijra (ten years after his migration). News of his journey had reached the ears of the Muslims located in various locations. In order to be in the company of the Prophet and perform the rituals of the pilgrimage along with the Prophet, many groups and classes of people had gathered in Mecca. The Prophet completing the pilgrimage delivered several speeches among the crowds. He then decided to return to Madina. The crowds continued to accompany the Prophet. On his journey back the Prophet reached the hilly spot of Jahfa in the desert, also known as Ghadeer Khum. It was here that the Angel of Revelation, Gabreil, descended upon the Prophet with this verse of the Holy Quran (5:67):

"Oh, Messenger. Proclaim what descended to you from your Lord; and if you do not so, you have not proclaimed His message. And Allah protects you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people"

The verse shows the importance of the issue which prophet should tell people and if Muhammad (pbuh) doesn"t proclaim it, he has not proclaimed Allah"s message. It"s the last days of prophet"s life and such an important issue showed be told to people.

The verse also shows that if he proclaims that issue his life will be in danger! And some people who claim that they are Muslims (but in fact they were Kafir and had attended pilgrimage. Read Quran 2:34 it will give you the same impression) will threaten prophet's life!

The event of Ghadeer shows us that the Prophet's life was soon to end, because he lived for only seventy days thereafter. On the other hand there was no Divine decree or commandment that the Prophet did not proclaim to the people. Hence, it is quite evident from this verse that the issue of succession to him is the point. The Prophet acted accordingly, then and there. After the noon prayers, he gave the order to have a pulpit made which was done so by heaping the camel"s saddles on top of each other. Everyone gathered around this pulpit.

According to historians thousands of people were in that gathering (including Abubakr and Omar ibn Khattab).
The Prophet went on the pulpit. The people were all too anxious to know the importance and the magnitude of the reason to as why the Prophet had stopped in that heat of the desert to speak. Not allowing him to postpone it to be made in the ease and the comfort of a town. Every indication was to show that the matter was of great importance. The Prophet predicted the nearness of his death, which he had also said in Mecca too. Then he spoke of his being the Prophet and that of his having acted upon the will of God in announcing the revelations to them and that he had to announce this last issue in completion of the religion. After these words he called Ali Bin Abi Taleb. Ali went next to him on the pulpit. The Prophet then took his hand and lifted it above his head so that as historians say, the whiteness of their armpits showed.
There in the hot searing desert, holding Ali"s hand high above his head, automatically stopping all passing caravans, the Holy Prophet's voice rang out;
"To whomsoever I was the guardian, Ali to be his guardian=Man kunto mawlah fahaza Ali'o mawlah" Then the Prophet blessed those who would help Ali and cursed those who would refrain from helping him."

Allameh Amini in his book [1] brings you many references of Ghadeer day and happening. That book is among the top books written by Shia scholars. He devoted his whole life to write that book and has gathered Sunni Muslims' references.
You will also find useful information about Ghadeer in [2].
The historians who had mentioned Ghadeer happening in their books can also be found in [3].
You can also find famous "Muhaddithin" who quote Hadith and religious sayings in [4]. They have talked about Ghadeer.

Sunni brothers believe that our prophet (pbuh) didn't specify any successors. It's not logical that we think he left his Ummah (the group of Muslims) without a leader. Do they regard Abubakr wiser than Muhammad (pbuh)?!!! Because Abubakr specified Omar as his own successor. Abubakr knew that there should be a leader after his death but Muhammad (pbuh) didn"t know?!

In this round I proved that our prophet Muhammad (pbuh) specified Ali as his successor in Ghadeer Khum.


[1] Al-Ghadir by Allameh Amini.


[3] Here are the historians:
"Bilazari in Ansab Al-ashraf
"Ibn Qutaybah in Al-Imama wa al-Siyasa
"Tabari in his book
"Egyptian Ibn zulagh
"Khateeb Baghdadi
And many other historians. You will find 24 historians in Allameh Amini's book.

[4] Here are Muhaddithin
"Imam Shafi'i (A Sunni scholar)- Abu 'Abdullah Muhammad ibn Idriss- al nahaya of ibn athir
"Imam Hanbali (A Sunni scholar)- Ahmad ibn Hanbal-Musnad and Managheb.
And many other Muhaddithin


Thanks to Pro for challenging me to this debate. Here are my arguments:

Very few hadith exist that directly imply who was to succeed after the Prophet. In many cases the Prophet implied to have recommended a Shura (or "consultation") in resolving affairs and issues.

The Quran also speaks of Shura in a highly positive regard. This can be seen in Surah Ashura (42nd chapter of Quran) in verse 38. The context of the previous and succeeding verses talk about the traits of a righteous Muslims, so this verse has not been taken out of context:

". . .Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual consultation among themselves; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance" [are praised] [3]
Therefore with the above mentioned verse, it would not be too much then to claim that the issue of the Prophet"s (pbuh) succession would be an issue in need of a Shura to resolve.

There was a consultation however, a Shura was made to resolve this issue, one in which Abu Bakr was almost unanimously elected.

The first Medinan Muslims, the Ansar, held a meeting to discuss about the choosing of another leader among them, to govern the Ansar, At that point when the news of the meeting spread, Abu Bakr, Umar, and Abu Ubaidah ibn al Jarrah hurried to the meeting. Abu Bakr contended that if the Ansar picked a lead, to lead the Ansar only, the Ummah (or Muslim community) would begin to split . The new leader as Abu Bakr said, must originate from the Quraysh, Muhammad's (pbuh) tribe; some other decision would divde the group.

Sa'd ibn Ubadah consented to this. Abu Bakr recommended to the social affair that the individuals ought to pick either Umar or Abu Ubayda, as both were skilled men of the Quraysh. Umar promptly got Abu Bakr's hand and gave him bay'ah (proclaimed his loyalty; an Arab custom) bringing about whatever is left of the men at the event to additionally give their bay'ah. Umar later thought of the decision as a falta, or a rushed and hastily made decision. However, this choice would not have been tying upon whatever remains of the Muslims unless they themselves decided to give their bay'ah, which all spare the supporters of Ali did. As ind

Ali later conceded the election, giving his bay"ah to Abu Bakr. Not only that, but after Abu Bakr"s death, when a second election was being held, Ali endorsed and voted for Umar.
Therefore, since Ali had conceded the election once, and endorse another candidate the second time, this therefore shows that Abu Bakr"s election as Caliph was lawfully legitimate.

Debate Round No. 2


"Very few hadith exist that directly imply who was to succeed after the Prophet."
A lot of Ahadith and documentations exist that prophet directly said Ali is his successor. Saying "man kuntu mawlah fahaza Ali"o mawlah". As if you have neglected the sources which I gave you in the previous round! Those sayings were mainly from Sunni books or the historians that Sunni brothers accept them. And I avoided to bring hundreds of ahadith which exist in Shia books from Hassan, Hussain (called sayyidain shabab al-jannah by Prophet ) and their families.

I accept that in many cases Prophet recommended a Shura and I know that Quran also asks us to use Mashvarah in our lives and I just wonder how you proved that the issue of the Prophet"s (pbuh) succession needed of a Shura using the mentioned reasons!! Brother we are here to talk about such an important topic using reliable documentations not by guesses!

Prophet specified his successor in Ghadeer and no Shura is needed. If you wanna talk about Saqifah (called a Shura by you) you should first prove that Ghadeer didn"t happen and prophet didn"t specify any successor. And you will completely fail to prove it because there are many hadith about Ghadeer in your own books.
I have a lot to talk about Saqifa however, I refuse to talk about it because firstly you should prove that Ghadeer didn"t happen.

And Ali never gave his Bay"ah to Abubakr or Umar (Omar) neither did Fatimah (SAA).
The part two of your source 3 (2. Is it true that Ali [ra] did not pledge his allegiance to Abu Bakr [ra]?) is really an interesting saying from Aisha.

Muhammad (pbuh) said several times:
Fatimah is my bez"ah (a part of my body) who annoys her indeed has annoyed me and who annoys me has annoyed God. These sayings are all similar with 13 Shia references and 18 Sunni references.

Now I ask you to think about the mentioned hadith which I gave above and this saying from your source.
"". So Abu Bakr refused to give anything of that to Fatima. So she became angry with Abu Bakr and kept away from him, and did not ask to him till she died."

Did Abubakr know more than the daughter of Prophet and Ali?!
Didn"t Muhammad(pbuh) say that "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is it"s door"
Umar hit Fatimah from her chick and got Fadak by force!!

By the way Shia sources basically say that Fatimah leaved only 75 days after prophet (pbuh) and she was killed by Umar's bully warriors and slaves (I avoid to talk about this part because I have promised to argue using your books)

Also ""Ali uttered Tashahhud and said (to Abu Bakr), We know well your superiority and what Allah has given you, and we are not jealous of the good what Allah has bestowed upon you"
Ali used to hate Abubakr and Umar and I prove it from your own books that Ali used to call them lair, cruel, betrayers, Fasiq. He never gave Bay"ah to them until he was killed.

Aisha was the person who fought Ali in Jamal(camel) war and her father didn"t have good relationship with Ali, do you really believe what she said about Ali in the source which you mentioned!!

Please provide sources from your books and not from web pages unless they provide reliable sources for their sayings.


Apologies but my internet access currently is very limited, I will have to past this round. My internet access should be back by tomorrow or the day after inshallah.
Debate Round No. 3


That's Ok. I'll be waiting till the next round.


UtherPenguin forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 4


Quran 5:67
Oh, Messenger. Proclaim what descended to you from your Lord; and if you do not so, you have not proclaimed His message. And Allah protects you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people


UtherPenguin forfeited this round.
Debate Round No. 5
2 comments have been posted on this debate. Showing 1 through 2 records.
Posted by AbuJarir 10 months ago
Im not the brother of a Shia Rafidha nor would I offer you Salaam nor pray behind you. The twelvers abandoned Muhammad Baqir's brother Zayd and Jafar is a decendant of Abu Bakr(RA)
Posted by UtherPenguin 1 year ago
Sincere apologies for the forfeit. I'll do what I can to make it up in this round inshallah.
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